Tobie falling update

[judygram]

Good idea Tracy, now is not the time to worry about it being junk food as long as it is something to eat and an excellent idea about getting some water in her.

[Jopalis]

I came upon this site...don't know if it is good or not. Did have one recipe similar to the previous post on birdy cornbread.....and other recipes...

 

http://www.thelaughingparrot.com/RECIPES.html

[judygram]

Thanks Pat for the link, those are some interesting and appealing recipes, might have to try one or two of them.

[lovemyGreys]

A great link there.Here is one that has some great bread recipes ..

 

http://parrotrecipes.com/modules/recipe/letter.php?letter=Bread

[bettyboop]

Hi Pat , poor thing , how frustrating !!!!I agree , I would take her to the vet 's office . Is this your regular avian vet ?

On the cornbread birdie bread , I just made some with chopped apple , smashed banana's, baby food carrots, sweet potato, rice (COOKED)rasins, nuts ,wheat germ , low sugar granola , and sprinkled pine nuts and dried cranberries on top .So you just make the base out of the instructions on package and throw in what she likes.

However , you could try some rice, banana, and chopped up apple just to feed her from your hand, the Mommy touch .It would probably make her feel closer to you ...

I am really concerned with this vet office , I would just take her in the morning as soon as they open if you can find out he is in the office.

In my prayers and thoughts, take care of you and hubby also ...

Mary

[Acappella]

Pat, just a thought about the cage bottom. What if you put Tobie in the smaller cage, then put towels on the bottom and cover that with the corn she's used to seeing on the bottom. That way it would look familiar, but it would be padded in case she did fall. Also, she might be trying to get high because she's already feeling vulnerable being sick. What if you just put her cage on something higher. Maybe she'd be more content on a lower perch inside the cage. Don't know if that will help. Just thinking aloud. I hope she's feeling better and the vet's office is more responsive to you.

[Jopalis]

ooh...great ideas. Still waiting for vet to call back. I am thinking it won't happen today.. bummer... for lack of posting a more colorful word.. LOL!

[Jopalis]

Finally talked to the vet... He says Tobie has arteriosclerosis. Blockage like people get. Supposedly the x-rays show that her heart is a little enlarged as well. He says this breed often starts having heart issues at around 10 yrs old. I hadn't heard that. He also said she is pretty old... I thought the norm was around 60 or so... He says there is not much to be done. He won't operate and there aren't meds like there is for people. He wants to see her tomorrow... Wants to be sure of her calcium supplementation, etc. I don't know if I should get a second opinion or not... Just love her and try to keep her comfortable til ...

 

So sad.... I didn't think she ate that much fatty foods but... I guess like us maybe some of it is inherited. However, she was raised with my parents who had a stroke and bi-pass between them. She ate her mix and people food. Same here and I am sure I have my share of blockage as well. She keeps wanting to sleep up hgher in her feed cup. She tips her head down into it and I think she feels more secure then on the perch even though it is low. She can't seem to fall asleep on the perch without losing her balance and startling herself awake. I emptied out the higher cups so if she really wanted to do that she wouldn't be breathing in anything from the food. She has food and water in the bottom of the cage. She seems to crawl around the sides of the cage ok as she uses her strong leg and her beak. I wil have to take it a day at a time. If you or anyone knows of other birds being treated for arteriosclerosis or heart issues can you let me know?

 

Thanks. Off we go to the vet in Calabasas tomorrow...

 

Pat

[Jopalis]

I just found this article.. re artheriosclerosis in birds.... I wonder how I would find an avian vet in Los Angeles area that deals with this?

 

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Use of Isoxsuprine for Treatment of Clinical Signs Associated With Presumptive Atherosclerosis in a Yellow-naped Amazon Parrot (Amazona ochrocephala auropalliata)

Elisabeth Simone-Freilicher, DVM, Dipl ABVP (Avian)

 

 

A 35-year-old yellow-naped Amazon parrot (Amazona ochrocephala auropalliata) was presented for gradually increasing inappetence, ataxia, weakness, and lethargy. Radiographic and ultrasonographic findings were strongly suggestive of atherosclerosis. Isoxsuprine, a peripheral vasodilator demonstrated to be of benefit in humans with intermittent limb pain, weakness, and lameness secondary to occlusive vascular disease, was selected for treatment. The bird's clinical signs resolved during treatment but recurred after varying periods of time when the medication was stopped intermittently. Nearly 3 years after the initial examination, the parrot was doing well on isoxsuprine therapy, with normal prehension of food with its feet and no recurrence of clinical signs.

 

Keywords: atherosclerosis, isoxsuprine, avian, yellow-naped Amazon parrot, Amazona ochrocephala auropalliata

 

Volume 21, Issue 3 (September 2007----------------------

[bettyboop]

Pat , I am so sorry . I have a corner perch om my birds cage , it is metal and he goes there to play . It would be a safe place for her and big enough for her to sleep without falling . Dr.Foster and Smith sells them .

I hope you can find someone to help her .

I will be thinking about you guys .

Kind Regards

Mary

[danmcq]

Hi Pat,

 

I am sorry to hear of Tobies diagnosis. Hopefully treatments will be found, as you researched that will help Tobie and get her back to normal as possible.

 

The claim of heart problems starting at 10 does seem very odd, as does the comment of her being old. It does not represent everything in print by many avian vets regarding the normal life span of a Grey.

 

Looking forward to hearing more after the vet visit.

[judygram]

Pat I am so sorry to hear of this diagnosis and that seems odd to me too of it occuring at 10 years of age. But then if she ate people food before she came to you and they ate a lot of fatty type foods then no wonder.

 

I hope you can find another vet to get a second opinion and that something can be done for her, she is a precious part of your family and as such you would do anything for her.

 

Keep us posted as to what if anything you find out.

[lovemyGreys]

Pat, sorry to hear the diagnosis, you are in our thoughts & as Dan said hopefully treatments can be found.

[Acappella]

Pat, with all the running around the vets have been forcing you to do I'm a bit mixed up. Is the vet who gave you this diagnoses your regular vet, the avian specialist? Just wondering because the comments about age and heart issues also sound odd to me. Did the vet say anything about her not eating, or offer any ideas or treatment options to at least keep her hydrated?

 

I'm hoping for better news for you and Tobie and I'll keep you in my thoughts.

[Jopalis]

Tobie didn't have a regular avian specialist since we moved here. Some vets are multi functional. I sought this current vet out when she started exhibiting problems. Til now she has acted great. I will check on that corner perch.

 

I got a reply from an e-mail I sent to an avian specialist and her condition. If anyone is interested:

---------------------------

The best Avian veterinarian I know is Dr. Walter J. Rosskopf. He is a certified Avian veterinarian and the best in the country.

------------------------------------------

I will call him and see what he has to say. Hopefully I can get copies of her records for all the work that was just done. I may have to accept this but not before I see if there are other options and the ramifications.... You guys are the best. Pat

 

She is eating a bit and drinking a bit.... Not happy to keep moving from regular cage to travel cage but ... She is just so tired and can't sleep without jolting awake. I want to check on that corner perch but I am not sure she will use anything strange.<br><br>Post edited by: Jopalis, at: 2008/05/08 17:38

[judygram]

You do what you have to do and I hope you can find some help in this Dr. Rosskopf, no one here expects any less from someone who has the situation you have, I would be exhausting all possibilities if in your shoes.

 

All I ask is to keep us informed of whatever you find out.

[Jopalis]

Mary, I will try to find but do you have a link to the product? Thanks..Pat

[judygram]

I think this is the site Mary was talking about:

 

www.drsfostersmith.com

[Jopalis]

OK. I met with the avian doc today. I liked him. He said she is an older bird and has artheriosclerosis. Much like people that eat the wrong things, too much table food (meat,etc.) lack of exercise/flying, etc. has contributed to her having a slightly enlarged heart and the artery issues. He put her on oral doses of calcium, omega fatty acids and a heart medication. He said there is not a lot of studies with the heart meds but he has used it before. She could live another week, another month, a couple of years... We don't know. I asked about the baking bread thing for them and he was against it. Not just because she is ill but for birds in general. He said pellets like Harrison or ZuPreen and fresh fruits (primarily berries) and green vegetables like broccoli, kale, etc. An occasional small bit of cooked egg or lean protein like chicken. Not spinach....something about that So, I will do what I can for her. I am keeping her in a little cage and for now taking out the perch and putting in a thick terry bathmat. We just want her to rest. He also wants her to have some direct sunlight (not thru window) an hour or so a day. I will put a low perch in but I have to get one. The perch he was on he said was too big in diameter and they should be able to get most of their claw around the perch with a little space between when closed.

 

I'm pooped and have to go get my daughter. That's it for now.

 

I'll check back later. You guys kept me sane! Pat

[bettyboop]

So sorry , I was out all day .Someone else gave you the correct address for FOSTER AND Smith

Mary

[bettyboop]

Gosh if my bird can't get birdie bread , she will starve to death . All she wants is seeds. I hate to ask Pat, but could you find out why he said the bread is bad.

Hopefully Tobie will get better, I'm still praying . Try to get some rest .

Mary

[judygram]

bettyboop wrote:

I hate to ask Pat, but could you find out why he said the bread is bad. Mary

 

I'd like to know the answer to that one too.

 

I am so sad her prognosis is not good but with your loving care she could live for a long time but I know that whatever time she does have will be the best days of her life, you will see to that. She has been thru the wringer and so have you so get some rest and keep us informed as you find out more.

 

I will keep you and Tobie in my thoughts and prayers.

[BondsMom]

Pat

Was the vets name DR. ATTILA MOLNAR from Double R Vet center? You mention Calabass and I know he is in Calabass and is one of the best bird vets there are. I take my bird to him and it is a long drive for me but I think he is well worth the drive.

 

I hope everything works out, you and Tobie are in my thoughts

 

Deby

[Jopalis]

Hi Guys! Thank you for your kind words. Yes, it is Dr. Attila Molnar. I was ready to not like him and find another vet but I liked him a lot! I had a fair amount of feeling majorly guilty. It is true that Americans are a very unhealthy nation as a whole with obesity, fast food, etc. etc. Then we feed our pets similarly...too much and not the right things. We think we are giving them and ourselves "treats". He didn't say much about the corn bread deal except to ask me what is corn... and corn bread. He just said it is not that good for them and some of what we see on the internet is "garbage". I'm sure it's not awful like too much meat, etc. etc. He was going on the fact that those pellets are balanced to their needs. He feeds his mostly just pellets but gives them fresh veggies and berries as treats. Corn is pretty much starch and high sugar. Plus not sure if there is hydrogenated stuff in those mixes. If you just think about how it is for us... it is similar for them. High glycemic foods, processed foods, starchy foods. He even told me not to give her grapes because they are so high sugar and make her want more. The carby sugary stuff makes us want more of that. They are same.... He said seeds were pretty much trash for them... fats and not much nutrition. He may have been stronger with me because he says it's like people... they want a pill but don't want to change the unhealthy behavior. She hasn't flown in years.... so sat around eating unhealthy food like a lot of folks. I am sensitive to her wants too. He said a wee bit of lean meat or fish now and then when she is for the most part on pellet diet is fine. Green veggies and green leafy veggies except not spinach. Berries are the best.

 

I showed him the article I noted above from the get go when he acted like there is nothing we can do. So, he realized that if there was something I could try that I wanted to.... The med he is putting her on is similar but "better" per him. There is little empirical data on the use of these drugs with birds. He has done it before. When I asked if those birds improved he said yes but since there is not much data, can't be sure if it was the meds or they just improved. The meds won't take away her damage but hopefully will slow it down. The calcium, omega fatty acids and the meds. Hubby has to give them to her 2xz a day by mouth... oh fun. She is not super great with hand training but if anyone can do it my husband can as she loves him mostly.

 

A bunch of big birds were coming in as I was leaving so I think he is well respected. Betty the Parrot Lady on another vet in Hawthorne recommended that other vet but when I told her who I went to she said I could not go wrong with him either. So now I know of 3 well respected Avian vets in L.A. He was personal friends with that Australian wild animal tv guy that died from the manta ray... Sorry brain cut out so can't think of his name... Steve...?

 

I don't know what else to say. We are doing what we can and hope to stabilize her. she is in her travel cage. It is not very tiny. One perch toward the bottom and I folded up a big towel and covered the bottom. Boosted the bottom up so there is no where for her to fall unless she crawls up the side and thenshe will still fall on towels. I will get newspaper and still leave her a bit of towel to lay on. I think I want to take the perch out but we'll see. She still fears falling from it and doesn't rest right even though no where to fall. She doesn't realize that. Gosh I wrote so much. Sorrrrryy!!!

 

For diet he mostly likes birds to just have the balanced pellets. He said Harrison's were harder for a lot of birds to get used to. Maybe ZuPreem tastes better...? He said they taste similar to cheerios. Guess he tasted them...LOL! Pellets, veggies and berries... For the most part. No dairy...

 

I feel bad I didn't change her diet and just followed what my parents did... I'm sure they thought they did fine. Corn cob is biggg no no too.... Oye!

 

G'night fellow birdbrains! Luv Ya!!! Pat

 

I'll write more. My daughter is making her First Communion Saturday and I really need to change focus. Timing of this was difficult.

[Jopalis]

OH yeah... btw that Dr. Rosskopf has a board where you can post questions. Maybe there is some diet stuff on there too.... Dr. Rosskopf, Dr Molnar and there is a Dr. Lavac that is supposed to be good too. I told him about some websites and recipes and he shot it down.... Maybe that's just him. I don't know.... Sounded like it made sense all he said though...

 

I may have her another day, week, month, year... I'll try .... He also said 40 was average age so he was amazed she was still alive with all that damage to her arteries and heart. Maybe they live longer under the best circumstances but he said 40 was average.