Big scare

[kyparamedic]

Well, I just had a big scare with my grey, Chloe. I decided to give her a bath as I hadn't in quite some time (a couple months). Primarily because she hates them so much. Before doing so, I trimmed a couple of her toenails as they were starting to cut through my skin. Of course she wasn't happy about this. Before giving her a bath I cleaned out the sink with a disinfectant (Fantastik), rinsed it good, cleaned it using regular dawn dish soap, and rinsed it out again. This time I put room-temperature water in rather than warm water as I've read they generally like this better. She sat in there for a few minutes while I watched her and lapped the water up over her back. I put a tiny amount of the shampoo (Kings Cages stuff my vet recommended) on her back and started rubbing it in and she became very stressed out. I let it sit for a few minutes and started splashing the water on her back again. She was still very stressed, quite a bit more than usual. I took the spray bottle with half water/half aloe vera juice in it and dumped it over her back, which got her pretty worked up as she hates the spray bottle so even the sight of it gets her going. I went ahead and drained the water out as she was obviously very upset now. As I was rinsing her off, she kept trying to get out and was kind of falling on her side. I thought it was just because she couldn't get any traction although it was a little weird because she's never fallen over like that. So I thought it could be that I had just clipped her toenails. So I put a towel around her and lift her up and she starts making this terrible noise, like she's in a lot of distress. She's also breathing really heavy and fast. I try to put my hand in to let her stand on it and she is all wobbly and having trouble standing. I wrap her back up and just hold her against me. She's shaking, making that awful noise, and breathing fast. I head back to her cage and just sit there with her for about 5 minutes, trying to calm her. I am completely dumbfounded at this point as to what's going on and am thinking all this was just too much on her. She finally stops with the noise for the most part so I take her to her cage and see if she'll get back on my hand. She's still pretty unsteady. I let her get on top of her cage where there is a rail around it so she can't fall off, thinking she'll feel more comfortable here. She's pretty wobbly but gets over to the rail and stands up on it of course! So I try to get her to stand back up on my hand so I can put her in a safer spot but she won't have it. When I try to pick her up she starts biting and scooting away. I stand there and just watch her for a while until I'm confident she won't fall. At this point I'm wondering if somehow she ingested some of the Fantastik. The vet is closed, although I can call his emergency number. I'm also 2 hours away though. I can't see how she would have ingested any of the Fantastik, unless there was some around the top of the sink that I didn't realize and then didn't get rinsed off either. Very unlikely but still possible. I searched the toxicology databases and the only ingredient in the Fantastik that could cause some of the symptoms she exhibited was the propylene glycol. However, this was after massive amounts given to rats. The Fantastik is made up of less than 4% of it. While I'm doing this and watching her, she starts to come around. Now she is acting completely normal and has been for the last hour. She's talking, playing, eating, etc. You'd never know anything happened except that her feathers are wet!

 

So, any ideas here? I'm hoping/thinking I'm out of the woods, but will be keeping a close eye on her. Was she just traumatized by the whole event? Did I change things up on her too much?

 

 

Thanks.<br><br>Post edited by: kyparamedic, at: 2008/04/26 00:32

[Dave007]

Who ever told you to use any type of chemical on your bird's feathers which by the way, could eventually sink into the skin?

[kyparamedic]

I'm not sure what chemical you are referring to. The only ones I deliberately put on her are the bird shampoo and the aloe vera juice, which I believe are well-established.

[kyparamedic]

One thing I forgot is that, in humans, extreme hyperventilation can cause various physical symptoms such as unsteadiness and dizziness. She was breathing very fast and hard. Not sure if this is the same with birds.

[judygram]

Why would you use bird shampoo, I have never heard of such a thing, the only thing you need to use is water an/or the aloe vera juice.

 

I guess it is possible that you didn't get all of the fantastik off your sink and she ingested it, probably wouldn't take a lot for such a small animal, but since she seems fine now I think she will be ok. Just keep an eye on her to make sure she continues to act normal but be a little more careful next time.

 

I know she hates bathing but she really needs a bath at least twice a week, a good soaking to wet the skin and get the dust off of her.

[kyparamedic]

Well, my vet recommended it as part of the plucking problem. He said the aloe vera was fine to use as well. Here's a link to it:

http://www.kingscages.com/shampoo.php

 

The article is written by my vet, incidentally.

 

I think it is very unlikely that she ingested any of the Fantastik but I can't rule it out. I was pretty thorough in rinsing everything down but it's possible I missed a spot. I don't know enough about avian medicine to say whether it could have affected her but it would have been such a minute amount. Unless something in it is just extremely toxic to birds, it's hard to believe that was the problem.

 

Post edited by: kyparamedic, at: 2008/04/26 01:34<br><br>Post edited by: kyparamedic, at: 2008/04/26 01:40

[judygram]

Since she seems to be acting normal now it might have just been the stress of the bath itself.

 

I hadn't heard of bird shampoo before but I guess it could help with a plucking problem, thanks for sharing the link so we can read about it.

[kyparamedic]

No problem. I will probably just use the aloe vera juice when the shampoo is gone, as it's fairly expensive. I hope it was just the stress of everything that caused her to act the way she did. At the same time though, I hate that she was so overwhelmed so easily.

 

I read some more about household chemicals and although I can't find any specifics, several articles have said that common cleaning chemicals that only cause minor skin irritation in humans and other animals can be extremely toxic or lethal to birds. So maybe there was a small amount that was enough to temporarily intoxicate her but [hopefully] not cause any permanent damage. She's still acting her normal old self.

[judygram]

Yes they are more sensitive to those types of things than we are so a very small amount can cause them problems when it wouldn't bother us.

 

Some greys stress out more than others and if you stress out in the process that will only intensify that in them as they react to our reactions.

[spookyhurst]

That's really scary! Glad to hear Chloe has since come around. It sounds like stress could have had something to do with it. When Nikko gets mildly upset, she makes a little squeak. I imagine it could get really ugly sounding if it was a major upset. Maybe the toenail clipping, bath, and shampoo was too much to do in one day.

 

I read an article about the stress of toweling on amazons. The body temperature went up, the blood pressure went up, etc. During their study, one of the amazons even perished because he became so stressed (they hadn't expected such a thing to happen). I believe he had been toweled for 15 minutes. Our babies can be so fragile sometimes .

 

I know someone who used a bird shampoo (don't know which kind) and the bird started plucking afterwards. It kind of made me suspicious about putting anything other than water and aloe juice on Nikko. She would never tolerate me rubbing shampoo on her body anyway. She's a "touch me only when I say you can" birdie .

 

Keep trying with the baths though. I use a mister with Nikko. She tolerates it much better than a spray bottle. She hated showers initially, and then learned to tolerate them. It's been 2 years now, and she actually asks for them :cheer:: "wanna shower," "birdie needs a shower." She has even gotten good at flapping her wings so that I can get the water sprayed underneath them. This is only a recent development, as her wingpits were mostly unwashed for 2 years :sick:. When I spray her with aloe juice after the water misting, I feed her pine nuts. This seems to ease the indignity of it all for her, and she's learned to associate being washed with yummy treats.

[judygram]

(quote) When I spray her with aloe juice after the water misting, I feed her pine nuts. This seems to ease the indignity of it all for her, and she's learned to associate being washed with yummy treats. (quote)

 

Thats a very good idea Spooky, teach them to associate the treats with allowing a bath.

[danmcq]

Wow kyparamedic, what a scary event!!

 

I hope your Grey is still doing well and back to normal. Have you ever used a bird shampoo on her before? It does almost sound like hyperventilation, but could also have been a reaction of some type to the chemicals in the shampoo.

 

Stress can certainly cause severe symptoms in and of itself even resulting in death, if it becomes severe enough, raises blood pressure, heart rate etc.

 

I hope all is still well. :-)

[kyparamedic]

Thanks for all the responses. She's still doing fine. Wow, I didn't realize that stress could actually cause death in birds so acutely! Of course it's bad over the long term but that's crazy that their reaction can be so severe. I've been reading up on it.

 

danmcq, yeah, I've used this shampoo for a while now. In fact, it's almost gone. I believe it's just a mixture of aloe vera with some other natural stuff. I'm not at home right now so I can't look at the bottle.

 

spookyhurst, what do you mean exactly by toweling? Usually she's ok with the towel, especially when it's getting her out of the sink after a bath! I usually only keep her in it for a minute or two. The only other time I ever use a towel is when I have taken her across the street to a friend's house and it's really cold. She doesn't seem to mind this. I have also covered her with a towel and so has the vet in order to trim her beak or clip her toenails. Not sure if it's the towel so much as what we're doing to her while she's in the towel that stresses her. Maybe a combination. When she has gotten really stressed or angry before I have seen her chest actually bleed a little bit. I guess that's from where she's been plucking and the skin is already damaged or irritated.

 

She really hates being sprayed even though I've been doing it for a year now without much change. Over the past couple of months I have begun giving her a treat afterwards and really praising her. Whenever she sees the spray bottle she starts doing what I call her "chicken noises" and starts trying to attack the spray bottle. I'll have to check into a mister.

[spookyhurst]

Yes, toweling is just wrapping your bird in a towel. It sounds like that's not something that stresses Chloe out, which is good. I want to be able to desensitize Nikko to the towel, as she gets very upset about it, and makes awful sounds like she's being tortured .

 

I wish I still had that article about the birds dying from being stressed. It was from a magazine called "Good Bird." If I remember correctly, it was the bird's temperature increase that ultimately killed it. I looked around on the internet, and found what issue, but they make you pay for it. Here's the link, and the article is called "Science for the Bird Brain (A Synopsis of Scientific Papers Related to Avian Medicine)

Physiologic Responses of Amazon Parrots (Amazona species) to Manual Restraint - By Diane Starnes":

 

http://www.goodbirdinc.com/toc1-2.html

[Keywe]

Extreme hyperventilation (what Kparamedic said) makes sense. Glad she's better

[bettyboop]

I would like to add that unless birds are dirty , getting into oil or something really dirty , why would you use shampoo . If not rinsed out completly , having soap residue on their feathers might make them feel dirty and cause an over preen or plucking situation .

Also before using the sink to bathe next time , just use plain white vinegar to clean and rinse out prior to placing her in to bathe . I use white vinegar to clean in between deep cleanings on toys etc...It is safe around birds.

Mary

[Falconeer]

Bird Shampoo? Perch Plus? Head and feathers? Dove :silly: