Hello! Just got an AG.

[Christina]

I believe this guy is just a troll and saying stuff he purposely knows will upset everyone. What a jerk.

[dblhelix]

I dont get the sense that Tubescreamer is a troll. I think he is a legitimate user who took on a bird w/o any knowledge about them. If you read the comments made, its not unusual for someone with no idea about parrots to erroneously expect the tactics mentioned to work. I dont think its appropriate for us here to be labeling members as one thing or another. We need to give advice. If there is someone who is not educated we need to try and provide them information even if we do not agree with their stance/approach, not turn them away with insults. That would only be bad for the animal in the end.

[Shamelessmuse]

Karma to you dbhelix!

 

I agree wholeheartedly!

 

I know many intelligent people that know nothing about bird behavior and feel that they can be trained just like a dog. I also know people that seem to feel that negative re-enforcement works when training any animal.

 

While the thought of someone biting their bird is terrible, we can do more good by educating them, without offending them. If you point fingers, tell someone how horrible they are (no matter how you feel) the chances of them listening to you after that are slim to none. Sometimes it is better to bite your tounge and offer friendly advice for the greater good. Unfortunatly I think we may have already run him off.

[TubeScreamer]

Shamelessmuse wrote:

Karma to you dbhelix!

 

I agree wholeheartedly!

 

I know many intelligent people that know nothing about bird behavior and feel that they can be trained just like a dog. I also know people that seem to feel that negative re-enforcement works when training any animal.

 

While the thought of someone biting their bird is terrible, we can do more good by educating them, without offending them. If you point fingers, tell someone how horrible they are (no matter how you feel) the chances of them listening to you after that are slim to none. Sometimes it is better to bite your tounge and offer friendly advice for the greater good. Unfortunatly I think we may have already run him off.

 

Hello, run me off why? I don't pay attention to childish behavior or internet "back and forth" garbage. I don't get into that at all and I always consider the source. :blink: and I do have a life. Been busy.

 

I have some updates, I found a few things in the last week or so.

 

I thought about this. What do you do if you want to break a wild horse? You ride it and break him down. A mean pooch? Same thing, put him in submission mode and break him. A cat? Ditto. I also thought about talking to someone that trains birds for the shows here in Vegas..all 50 million of them :laugh: and my logic was dead on. I met up with a trainer and the truth of the matter is that people think these birds are alot smarter than they are. They're not as smart as other animals, not even close. They also treat them like a human, impossible can't be done. When a trainer wants an animal to do something he makes the animal do it immediately and starts teaching the animal right away not give the animal as much time as needed or have "patience" with it. Are parrots animals? That's "LOGIC" for those that don't understand.

 

They're just another animal so breaking them and forcing them to submit to you does indeed work. Here's what I did. 4 days ago the bird got out of the cage and went into my room so I chased it and figured, hey this is a great opportunity to grab him and start the bootcamp process. Before I started I thought about my days as a pooch trainer and remember the helpful bit about shoving your fist or bite area deep into a dog's mouth if he tried to bite. Why not with the parrot?

 

I grabbed him and he tried to bite me once but backed off the second time he did and into his beak and face my finger went. I used some force to make sure he understood that my bite was worse than his (they ARE supposed to be smart right?) so I shoved my finger as far as I could into his beak and he had no choice but to retreat and pull his head and neck back. After 2 more times the biting attempts stopped. Great progress I thought and he eventually calmed down and I started talking to it. After 15 min of holding it and him being quiet I put him in his cage and all was well. I did this agin later that night and shoved my finger deep into his beak only once before he got the message. Same thing all quiet, 15 min. back into the cage.

 

It's been a few days of this and now even my gf can get him to climb onto her arm. He gets on my arm and he stays cool. He does shake now and then when I get close but it's getting better he doesn't run away from me.

 

Also I never gave him treats during the break down period. I cut a piece of pear and gave it to him after the session and when he was back in his cage. Everything is going well so far and he even comes out of the cage twice a day.

 

1. Most of what I've read about parrots and training the last week or so has all been WRONG.

2. They're really not that smart, not like some people think or would like to think they are.

3. They do talk and learn (they don't learn as fast as mammals though) MUCH, MUCH faster than what I read. My bird picks up some words immediately.

4. Patience works well if you just want the bird to own you or do as he pleases. My animals do as I say and want so patience is out of the question.

5. You do have to use discipline and show who's boss. You don't have to abuse it but you have to be forceful.

 

It's been a little over a week but only 5 days after the break in, bootcamp and my bird no longer tries to bite, and he now climbs onto our arms and never bites while we're holding it.

 

Next week I'll try and start teaching it some type of trick even though we're happy with him now. Nothing really needs to improve. He pooped only once outside his cage so all in all..we're very satisfied with the progress.

 

I can only say that if you have a bird that's nasty, quit wasting your time and quit trying to treat it like a human. Start up your brain and your logic and break the bird down. Give it a shot, you really have nothing to lose except a bird that stops biting. Use what natural ability we humans have over animals. Don't forget who you are and who they are.

[TubeScreamer]

danmcq wrote:

The story of a rescue that the petshop probably tried to train like a Dog:

 

 

So keyword being "PROBABLY". You just assumed right? Gotcha'

 

That bird looked abused, I don't know. I don't assume or jump into conclussions ever without logical thinking first. They did say "rescue" so maybe he was abused. Who knows.

[danmcq]

TubeScreamer wrote:

 

So keyword being "PROBABLY". You just assumed right? Gotcha'

 

That bird looked abused, I don't know. I don't assume or jump into conclusions ever without logical thinking first. They did say "rescue" so maybe he was abused. Who knows.

 

Probability is not an "assumption", it is a suggestion of the highest percentage of reason. If you watched the Video and read the captions, they stated the Grey had been "Abused".

 

Now, in reference your posits of members Brains and logic. You are "Assuming" that most replies to your Post are from members that are not logical thinkers and therefore that equals they are not using their Brains.

 

Your logic is flawed. I agree that any Animal, Bird or Fish etc. can be "broken" by the use of intimidation, pain and inducing fear upon them. But, that is not how most trainers elect to teach and build a relationship with any creature they work with.

 

That is the minority of trainers.

 

It amazes me, that you can just dis-spell all the books written by people whom have spent their lives working with Birds.

 

If you think every Animal, Bird or Fish etc. can all be trained and a symbiotic relationship can be attained using the same methods across the board, you are seriously wrong.

 

That's the reason we have children these days cutting themselves, committing suicide or becoming a threat to society. They were abused either physically, mentally or both.

 

Fear and intimidation never results in a sentient being that you can trust when you turn your back on them or release them to general population.

[TubeScreamer]

danmcq wrote:

TubeScreamer wrote:

 

So keyword being "PROBABLY". You just assumed right? Gotcha'

 

That bird looked abused, I don't know. I don't assume or jump into conclusions ever without logical thinking first. They did say "rescue" so maybe he was abused. Who knows.

 

Probability is not an "assumption", it is a suggestion of the highest percentage of reason. If you watched the Video and read the captions, they stated the Grey had been "Abused".

 

Now, in reference your posits of members Brains and logic. You are "Assuming" that most replies to your Post are from members that are not logical thinkers and therefore that equals they are not using their Brains.

 

Your logic is flawed. I agree that any Animal, Bird or Fish etc. can be "broken" by the use of intimidation, pain and inducing fear upon them. But, that is not how most trainers elect to teach and build a relationship with any creature they work with.

 

That is the minority of trainers.

 

It amazes me, that you can just dis-spell all the books written by people whom have spent their lives working with Birds.

 

If you think every Animal, Bird or Fish etc. can all be trained and a symbiotic relationship can be attained using the same methods across the board, you are seriously wrong.

 

That's the reason we have children these days cutting themselves, committing suicide or becoming a threat to society. They were abused either physically, mentally or both.

 

Fear and intimidation never results in a sentient being that you can trust when you turn your back on them or release them to general population.

 

Well, again you're comparing the bird/animal to a human. Actually we have kids like that these days because of drugs, neglect and lack of discipline. There's nothing wrong with discipline.

 

And you do assume things. Why do you assume "training" is punishment or abuse?

 

Can you please explain in detail how my logic is flawed? I'm really interested.

Also describe in detail cases that have not used said methods of "breaking" without success. Ever watch things like the Dog Whisperer? He takes the same approach I do. He forces the dogs to submit so please explain how his/my logic is flawed. If there's a better method then I'm listening but I have a life and plans, goals, girlfriend etc. I don't have the same amount of time you might have. Direct me to those training methods other than breaking that did in fact succeed. I'm very interested in this because I don't think it can be done so please show me a few cases where training wild animals did not involve a type of breaking of the animal's will. I just want to see how a wild horse was trained by talking to and showing it patience and hoping he'd come around and let you ride it.

 

Also those books you talked about might be right but I believe I have a better method. At least I can prove it by showing you pics of my nice tamed, healthy bird. There's nothing wrong with discipline.

[danmcq]

I will not start discussing semantics with you. It would be a waste of your time and mine.

 

Discipline was never mentioned. Discipline comes in all forms and can simply be one word. You are correct, discipline is a must. But, discipline does not need to be harmful or abusive to obtain good results.

 

I never connected Training = Punishment. I stated training can be accomplished without using intimidation, fear and pain.

 

I can prove my Grey is tame also with photos. The difference is, he comes to us and cuddles, plays willingly and with much joy and anticipation. A broken animal or bird will not do so on their own accord and with joy. They will do so only with fear and distrust.

 

You again are trying to compare training two different species. A 1500 pound horse is ridden. A bird is not. Now, I do know a lot about breaking in horses. We have owned them for 30 years. I have seen some abusive "Breaking" of a horse and have also seen and performed a much gentler approach of time, patience, working the horse, saddle only and slowly getting on. The end result is a horse that is trust worthy and willing to do anything I wish verses a fearful hard-broken horse that you must watch every minute you are on or near it.

 

I thought you said you had read all the books on Bird training and found them to be hog wash? There are thousands of Parrot owners to prove they work.

 

I have yet to see a Parrot trained by using a Dog obedience or training book to do so. I rescue Dobermans and know how to train and build a very loyal and trusting relationship with a Doberman that was vicious or fearful etc. from neglect and abuse. I did not do so by cramming my hand down their throat when they tried to bite. If I had, they are much faster than I and would have taken a couple of fingers off rather than my entire hand ever reaching the back of their throat. Ive been around many Dog trainers and that is not a practice advised at all.

 

I would strongly suggest you listen to those that are successful at working with and training Parrots, rather than just going to your own path with trial and error.

[shazbaby36]

that is so upsetting he should not have a bird if going to be like that with them

[Talon]

Tubescreamer,

OMG!! I am in tears over what I read in the way you have treated your grey so far. My heart breaks for that poor bird. PLEASE, do yourself and him a favor and give him to a home where he will be treated as he requires. I am appalled at your methods. He is shaking out of the FEAR that you have instilled in him in your harsh methods. He will never ever forget what you have done, he will behave out of fear, not training, and most likely have other behavioral problems through out his entire long life. You do know they can live 40-80 years?

 

FYI: Dan is correct, you don't "break" a horse in the way that you describe. We had a 2 year old Wild caught Mustang boarded at our house. I watched his owner TRAIN, not BREAK that horse into one of the best and calmest horses I have ever seen. When he came, you couldn't walk within 8 feet of his stall. Now you can hug, love and ride him.

We have horses, and have boarded horses for 20 years, and I have witnessed many horses being trained. You do it just as Dan says. My daughter has an off the track race horse who knows nothing about being a trail horse, and he has learned through love, and patience and respect, not force.

Now, back to topic. :pinch:

 

Greys should never be FORCE trained. They should be treated with love, patience, acceptance, respect, and knowledge of their natural instincts so that you can earn their trust. They have different needs than most animals, and those needs must be met if you are ever going to be successful in raising a wonderful loving, trusting bird.

Please listen to our many experienced owners here, and change your methods. Your grey having the life he deserves depends on it.

 

Please reread the advice you were given, read some books, research on the internet, but do it for the benefit of you and your grey. PLEASE....<br><br>Post edited by: Talon, at: 2008/02/23 03:23

[TalonSis]

TubeScreamer wrote:

What do you do if you want to break a wild horse? You ride it and break him down.

 

Yeah right. :angry: I want you to try and train a horse, or ANY animal that way, and still have it's TRUST. I don't know where you've been, but they hardly EVER train animals that way. I wonder why your bird is still shaking when you come near it. Maybe from the fear of being grabbed violently, or a finger shoved in it's beak?

 

What really bugs me is the fact that now because you supposably "trained" a bird, that everything is wrong? That they aren't smart?

 

Wow. Just wow. :angry:

 

Oh, and tubescreamer, why don't you check out Monty Roberts? John Lyons? There are PLENTY of horse trainers that have trained wild horses that use the same language as the horses, and, oh yeah, they don't FORCE them to submit.<br><br>Post edited by: TalonSis, at: 2008/02/23 03:50

[Shamelessmuse]

Wow, I don't know who this moron is in Vegas that is such a great trainer...but he is a moron. I've been training animals for over 12 years and that is not how it works. I hate to tell you that not only did you get some seriously bad advice!

 

First off, if you do not have time to dedicate to your grey I would ask you to look at possibly placing it with a rescue group so that they can place the bird with someone who does.

 

Additionally you need to understand that you do not have a common bird. You have an african grey and they are in fact, very intelligent and please don't even try to argue that point with me. I went to school for animal behavior, I've worked with animals for years and I've studied more about animals than you have ever even thought about. They ARE intelligent, as are many other creatures that you are under-estimating. You have a choice as to if you want to actually learn something or not. I can't force you of course. However, again - if you are not willing to learn about the animal you have, the training methods that work with it and commit to devoting time to the Grey, then you seriously need to contact a resuce (which if you give me your state I will be happy to give you some groups there).

 

If you decided that you are going to take the time to dedicate to your grey, then first off you have to understand that the only way this bird is ever going to cooperate for you is if you build a bond based on trust and respect. Otherwise, you are going to have a fearful bird that will eventually reduce itself to feather plucking and lead a very unhappy life. You can not (despite what this so called trainer told you, who obviously is not familar with any successful training methods) use force to train your bird.

 

If you are truly interested in learning some methods to help you with your bird, then I would suggest starting a new thread asking for help. And it would certainly help if you do not call the members hear childish or try to engage people in arguments. This group has a number of knowlageable and helpful people who know a great deal about the wonderful African Grey. I for one would be happy to help you learn the appropriate way to handle your bird if you are willing to learn.

[KatB]

TubeScreamer--

I can't help but think you're playing with us. While I realize there are many people who might behave as you describe, they are usually either uneducated and not too smart or they know enough to keep their opinions to themselves. After all, there are animal abuse laws and child abuse laws to skirt. The way you write tells me you are neither uneducated nor stupid, and yet you openly boast of animal abuse, thinly disguised as "training". So you're either playing games or you're taking advantage of the anonymous nature of this Forum to air your sadism. How's that for Logic?

 

Okay, giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you really don't understand why "training" these birds with sledgehammer methods is a bad thing. Try googling "parrot plucking". You could also learn about it by searching it on this forum, but apparently you don't give the members here credit for their extensive and impressive body of knowledge. It may already be too late to prevent your bird from becoming a plucker, but I guarantee if you continue to "train" him with force, you will have a featherless bird very soon.

[Shamelessmuse]

I want to remind people that despite if he is for real or not, we have to assume that he is. (Yea I said assume, so? )

 

Anyway, in my many years as a vet tech and as a trainer I have met many very smart people who didn't know the first thing about animal behavior and training. Many were perfectly normal people that thought these methods were perfectly okay. So....it is up to us to try an educate people or put forth the effort to do so. I'd rather make the attempt than get bogged down on if it is true or not...or even the debate of how horrible it may be. I'd rather focus on educating someone to either A. handle it correctly or B. place the critter in a reputable rescue.

[HeatherStrella]

:ohmy: :sick:

[Ronda477]

Wow I completely agree with everyone else besides Tubescreamer.

 

I do break horses. I have horses right now that have been beaten and abused from people like you! That think the rough way is the best way and brute force will make them do what you want. It will out of fear and than people like me have to fix them! I have a horse now that is 22 years old and completely afraid of men. How can you say this is good? Just like a child you can't beat them to make them listen or shove a finger down their throat cause they didn't obey you. That is just pure abuse. Someone should report you.

[lovemyGreys]

Same here Ronda, i am just gobsmacked by Tubescreamer's attitude & his inhumane methods which are as far as i am concerned are a 100% cruelty.He is the lowest of the lowest in my books & my main concern is the poor grey involved in this awful situation.

Why has this guy not posted anywhere else on the forum ?

Is it his intent to come on here every few days to add fuel to the fire, so to speak ?

If you were near me id report you like a shot, im sorry but you make me sick, you are a poor excuse for a human being, Admin if i have crossed the line so be it, i will not retract my views on Tubescreamer,the guy is a a**e :evil:<br><br>Post edited by: lovemyGreys, at: 2008/02/23 13:07

[Talon]

Tracy, no apology necessary. I couldn't have said it better myself. I stand behind you as always, not just because you are a member of our team, but because you are absolutely correct. B)

[lovemyGreys]

Thank you Talon.It's not my nature to curse people but this guy has got many member's backs up here on the forum,we are all so passionate about our greys/pets & this grey's welfare is at risk here,no grey deserves to endure cruelty like this.

[Ronda477]

I have seen too many people like this and it sickens me that he is on here actually giving ideas on how to handle a bird. I think that is his thing Tracy to come and add fuel to the fire every few days. I think if we all stuck together and didn't give this guy what he wants he will go away. He'll come back and post and get us all fired up and than we will write back, well that is what he wants, he doesn't want our help for he has it all figured out himself. So let himself stand alone. There is nothing we can do at all for the poor little grey he has. He is going to be mean to it no matter what we say or what view we give him cause he thinks he has it all figured out. I'm sorry it just makes me sick to my stomach.

[KatB]

Then again, there's always the admin's power to prevent him from posting. If he truly wants to learn, just about any subject he could ask about is addressed within this site and is free for the reading. If all he wants to do is publish his "misguided" training methods and boast of his superior intellect which allows him to know better than experts who have spent their lives studying the subject... at least if he can't post, we won't have to endure his bile and future newbies won't be exposed to his suggestions.

[danmcq]

Well, so far he isn't flaming anyone, so I would vote against blocking him unless he gets overwhelmingly sick with a descriptive post of what he has done besides poking his finger down the Greys throat which could cause irreparable damage to his throat or jaw causing misalignment of the beak.

 

But, when you look at all the posts from every Grey Owner here that has experience, versus a new-by with zero Grey experience. You would think they message would come across loud and clear that there is a right, wrong and humane way to teach and interact with a Grey or any other Parrot.

 

They are sentient beings that do think, have feelings and communicate those things to us through their body language and yes even through their speech if they are capable of doing so.

 

Hopefully this message will come across loud and clear to Tubescreamer.

[Ronda477]

I think it will and any other member too Dan, I'm sure they will see that there are the ones who care and are humane with their decisions other than the in-humane ways to help our little ones!

 

Good call