Myths vs Facts about bird Safety

[Zarlock]

I know everyone has opinions about what is safe and not safe for our beloved pals eg Silva/Avocado/Apple seeds being bad but I am wanting to know where the science or facts are for these things if anyone knows.

 

For example in my field of hypnosis people say we only use 10% of our brains and the Sub Conscious records everything in our life perfectly, both of which were shown to be total rubbish as early as 1932. Yet these myths have been parroted so much by people they are taken as fact when they are clearly wrong.

 

I figure the same must be said for parrots, and since Tui enjoys drinking water from my mouth in the shower, and avocado is not recommended because of only the fat content, I am wanting to find real scientific evidence for the safety rules we follow. All too often these types of things pop up based on a few peoples experience which as valuable as personal experience is, it is very subjective and not at all considered reasonable evidence in the world of science. So any links to articles would be appreciated.

 

Cheers Andrew

[BMustee]

As for the Saliva, all animals carry bacteria in the mouth that is safe...even beneficial...but can be deadly to another animal. For example, if a cat bites a rabbit or bird and the saliva gets into the cut the animal can/will be dead within 48 hours from the bacteria in the system...not the bite itself. Parrots are very sensitive and when they ingest our spit they get the bacteria in their systems. I don't believe it is as toxic as a cat bite but they can/will develop an infection. There are a couple people here on the site that had to give their birds meds for this very same thing.

 

The Avocado is toxic...that is why you should never feed it to your bird. It's not the fat content, or else Sunflower seeds would be on the "Do Not Feed" list. The pit and skin has a toxin in it that the flesh absorbs...so no part is safe. Apple seeds, grape seeds, cherry pits...everything like that has this toxin in it as well but the flesh isn't tainted...that is why they are safe for them to eat as long as they are cored/pitted.

 

These things are not Myths, they are fact, and many birds have died from them.<br><br>Post edited by: BMustee, at: 2007/11/07 15:19

[danmcq]

Great question Andrew.

 

I am of the same mind as you. i question everything and in-fact find many scientific studies also to be rubbish due to the foundational techniques, narrow group and/or quantities of something to establish their findings and position.

 

If I lived in the 14th century, I would have been one of the few, that when told the earth was flat, would have sailed my ship off the edge to prove them wrong ;-)

 

Kind of like coffee...good,bad,good,bad....to hell with them I drink enormous amounts and have since 16 and theres nothing wrong with me....

{Emotions-0002007D}

[BMustee]

Here is a few things I found on a quick Google search...

 

"The toxic principle in avocado is persin and leaves, fruit, bark, and seeds of the avocado have been reported to be toxic to birds and various other species. Several varieties of avocado are available, but not all varieties appear to be equally toxic. In birds, clinical effects seen with avocado poisoning include respiratory distress, generalized congestion, and death. Onset of clinical signs usually occurs after 12 hours of ingestion with death occurring within 1-2 days of the time of exposure. Small birds such as canaries and budgies as well as African species are considered to be more susceptible, however, clinical signs have been observed in other species."

 

 

http://www.2ndchance.info/parrothazard.htm

[Zarlock]

Thanks Bmustee for that. I used the food items as an example but I do not feed her any food from the list just to be sure.

 

However, surely birds have immune systems like everything else and develop resistance to bacteria from regular contact? Our drink process is taking water from the shower into my mouth and her drinking from it, so it is not deluted and not much saliva is in it.

 

I have also read the stories of people who did something and there bird dies, but again there are many factors that contribute to that and we humans end to attribute causes rather than have real knowledge. For example alot of people swear homeopathy works for them when in fact the cure for insomnia is a cup of coffee mixed into an earth size sphere of water and contains nothing more than $30 a bottle water. Clinical tests with Placebos show no evidence of homeopathy working but since someone took it, and they got better that is their proof. (despite it usually being whatever illness running its natural course)

 

No offense but I would like to get source documents that show the effects if there are any. Iceburg lettuce contains trace amounts of LSD but no matter how much salad I eat I don't get high. I want information on the actual toxicity if there are any, just to see if the rules I am following have real effects. I am sure some if not most do, I just want to know

[danmcq]

Regarding Avocado specifically, there is some interesting information on it and what types of Parrots it seems to affect drastically:

 

http://kgkat.tripod.com/avocado.html

 

http://www.birdvet.co.uk/avocado.html

 

http://onibasu.com/archives/kn/126359.html

 

There is definitely a common cord raised that the leaves, skin and pit are absolutely poisonous. But, the flesh seems to run 50/50 on whether it is poisonous or not.

 

I would rather error on the side of caution on Avocados and never offer them to nay of my animals or birds.

[Dave007]

I strongly feel that this very necessary to address. Actually, I'm surprised that others haven't spoken of it yet. Lets put aside all of the talk concerning toxic foods and building up resistance to these toxic foods. Birds don't build up resistance to toxic foods in the wild. They simply avoid them. You're talking about something far more serious than external toxic foods. The most bacteria ladened area of a human being's body is the mouth and whether you're showering or not, there's always saliva in the mouth. A person can't get sick from a parrot but a parrot can get extremely sick from what is in or comes out of a person's mouth. There doesn't have to be scientific study conducted in order to prove that. Just ask avian vets about the number of birds that come in and are ill from something we gave them. I have no idea what gave you the idea that letting your bird drink water from your mouth was healthy. I believe you're being very irresponsible for the health of your bird. Just call or visit an Avian Vet and tell him/her you're doing that and see the response you get. The only absolute fact here is that so far your bird has been very lucky at dodging that bullet.

PS--if this post is coming across as too harsh and blunt, well that was exactly what my intention was meant to be.

 

Post edited by: MrSpock, at: 2007/11/07 20:48<br><br>Post edited by: MrSpock, at: 2007/11/07 23:18

[judygram]

danmcq wrote:

Kind of like coffee...good,bad,good,bad....to hell with them I drink enormous amounts and have since 16 and theres nothing wrong with me....

{Emotions-0002007D}

 

 

 

I rest my case.

 

 

 

{Feel-good-0002006E}

[danmcq]

LOL JUDY!!! OK, you made your case :-)

 

MRSpock, you are greatly appreciated for stating a much needed truth regarding the sharing of bacteria. Thank You !!

[loviechick]

I will have to go with Mr. Spock on this one as I agree with what he's said. These animals avoid such things in the wild they don't build up tolerances like humans can. Then again we are also injected with such viruses as MMR and dPT so that we have the resistance, as we are not born with the immunities to Measles, mumps, rubella or dyptheria. Same with these birds, this bacteria is deadly to them, since it simply isn't a bacteria or virus they can be exposed to in a small amount and become immune.

 

And also regarding your comment about the LSD in iceberg lettuce. There isn't actually "LSD" in lettuce, its a chemical compound that has a similar molecular structure to that of the hallucinogen, but does n't have the same shape, therefore changing how the body breaks it down and how it will then effect the body chemically, which is why you don't get high.

[Zarlock]

I appreciate all the comments, but back to my actual questions which was links or information based on science. Anyone who does a search on google for 'human saliva and parrots' will get lots of sites all with the same copied list. Just because it is copied over and over does not make the list true. However this is not to suggest I don't follow the list generally, just I want to know what is true.

 

Mr Spock, I do not doubt that Vets will say no saliva, but I would suggest they know based on studies and biology and not from heresay lists online. Therefore there must be a source document somewhere. Then again some people will say they done it for years with no adverse side effects with there birds. With the avocados, some information says it is all toxic, others say it is only the leaves and skin. The Non Stick Pan some say over 500 degrees others say none at all. Even so most of the danger lists say "may cause", an effect, which is an opinion if unable to cite a reference.

 

There is a point where the facts become generalized and therefore wrong but repeated to the point where people get extremely angry about it, but have no evidence apart from their belief they are right because they have heard it before.

 

Loviechick I am not disagreeing with your comments, (or anyones) I just want to know where the knowledge came from, so that I can get accurate information. The LSD in lettuce being case in point, the info I gave was wrong, a common myth that has no bases in science. I want to find the same type of thing with parrot care. As for the drinking water from my mouth, I did not do it for a long time when when the bird asked for it because I heard the dangers. Then I found people that had done it for years with no effects.

[Talon]

My Avian vet says< "Absolutely NO human saliva!" We humans DO carry harmful bacteria in our mouths.

[siobha9]

I would also like to know where the scientific evidence for some of the data I have collected about bird safety. Like Andrew I am avoiding apple pips, teflon pans etc, all of the items that are unsafe for my birds. But I do often wonder why.

 

For example, how did the first bird realise that it was ok to eat an apple so long as they stopped before they got to the pips?

 

Normally genetic evolution would ensure that a species develops a dislike for a food that is dangerous to them as only those who dislike the food would survive. But my birds LOVE apples. A scientific study on dangerous foods would necessarily involve harming birds and modern ethical committees would be unlikely to approve one. Therefore I would presume that the "evidence" is based on isolated cases, which may have had many confounding variables that could have contributed to death or injury.

 

I am not suggesting that we should start to feed our birds apple seeds "just to see what happens", but I am curious as to whether we have all succumbed to an urban legend?

 

Siobhan

[Tari]

You know I do not need sience to back up things that are bad for my bird. My spit is not good for my bird so I don't risk it ever. As for you shower thing I would stop doing that now. If it is in your mouth the water well have some of your spit in it. No it might not kill him but it could make him sick why even take the risk?

[BMustee]

siobha9 wrote:

For example, how did the first bird realise that it was ok to eat an apple so long as they stopped before they got to the pips?

 

They didn't...apple trees don't grow in the tropical regions of the world where parrots are native. Apples are a human introduced part to the companion parrots diet. Things that are toxic to one animal but not the other is normally an evolutionary thing...not just a few exposures and your immune.

 

Toxins and Bacteria are in a whole different ballpark than Viruses and Disease. Bacteria growth in the body causes infections...for example an ear infection. If you get an ear infection once or twice you do not get immune to it and never get one again...you get one every time the bacteria growth takes over and then you need antibiotics to clear it. If you get the flu...lets say you get the H3N2 stain and your body fights it off. You build and immunity to it when fighting it and you can never get sick from it again until the stain mutates and the immunity is no longer effective.

 

 

As for needed scientific proof of the dangers to our birds, isn't knowing that birds have died enough to make any of us not want to put our grey babies in harms way? Does anyone have a documented scientific study that shows why Anti-freeze shouldn't be drunk? I mean, it tastes like Kool-Aid, so what's the harm? We all know there are toxic chemicals in Anti-freeze that will kill you or your pet, but we don't question it and don't need it in writing by a major university study. We don't let our children play in the street; a car could hit them. Would you really ask the county for pedestrian involved accident statistics on your street because you don't have proof that someone could get hit or because you have gone into the street plenty of times without getting hit? Call me a believer in a flat world, but I only want the best for my feathered best friend and will believe anything that an avian vet tells me is bad for my bird without needing proof.

[Zarlock]

Again I thank people for their comments. However people are still making Logical Fallacies and not addressing the question. I fully accept there are currently rules to follow, I fully accept that most are common sense, I fully accept all this, but it does not make it true. Most common sense things (such as drinking antifreeze) are grounded in science, you just are not aware of the research or are able to quote the science. I accept that some things are true without knowing the reference ... I just want the reference anyways

 

Maybe because I am a skeptic and trained in science I am unable to get my head around not needing proof things work. Some people still believe the earth is flat (after all the bible says so at least 21 times) their belief does not make it true. The same with ghosts, aliens, the govt doing 911. Many people still believe that because the President said so, Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, some think Saddam was involved in 911. I am not attempting to be political, my point here is that when emotions are invested (like pet safety) many times we err on the side of caution just in case, rather than reality.

 

Avian vets and medical people express the best knowledge they have until better knowledge is found. And yes, clinical research is the way knowledge is found. If a Vet says saliva is bad (which I do not in anyway disagree with) that means somewhere there is evidence for it. I am not a total dickhead, determined to kill my bird. I have stopped the drinking thing in the shower, but I would still like to know how much saliva at what concentration is considered harmful.

 

I want to know how best to protect and train my Tui for her optimal development, And I want to know that what I am doing is good advice. Because of studies I allow her to be flighted, because there is evidence it promotes cognitive abilities in the first few years of life. I let her out of the cage almost all the time, and because of this she knows where the bedroom is and the bathroom and what we do in it. If I followed common sense rules attached to the bad foods list, I would not let her walk on the floor in case I stepped on her, I would clip her wings so I did not have to be worried she would fly away, but BECAUSE I want the best for my bird, I look for evidence behind the 'rules' to make sure they are best for my bird and not because it makes life easier for me.

 

I can accept other peoples opinions based on common sense and better knowledge than I have, and I appreciate people giving it. But I am afraid I will never get to the point where I just accept things I am told because other people believe in it no matter how emotionally invested I am in the topic domain (pet safety). At the same time just because I want the evidence does not mean I do not accept the common sense advice given and I appreciate the comments (BMustee Apple introduction case in point).

[Zarlock]

by the by, thank you to the person who sent a private message about using a small bowl in the shower instead of my mouth. It made the same noise filling up (which Tui makes) and she was more than happy to drink from the bowl, when we did it this morning. So now I have a replacement behavior that still makes my bird happy and is safe.

 

Although now I have to find details of the crap in the local water supply and how safe it is for birds, since she has only ever had purified drinking water. There is another topic with views from both sides ...lol just how safe is human safe does of fluoride for parrots... lots of opinions I see online, anyone got any evidence?<br><br>Post edited by: Zarlock, at: 2007/11/08 17:11

[BMustee]

This article was written by Margaret A. Wissman, D.V.M., D.A.B.V.P. and posted on ExoticPetVet.net

 

Studies by dentists and dental researchers in recent years have helped clarify the role of various microscopic organisms in the development of dental cavities (technically called caries). Specific microorganisms as well as combinations of them have been studied. Many of these organisms are responsible for causing disease (caries, periodontal disease, abscesses) and have also been diagnosed as causing disease in psittacines. Although we often think that most bacterial infections are usually caused by Gram-negative bacteria, Gram-positive bacteria also cause disease on occasion.

 

Gram-positive cocci (bacteria) in the Staphylococcus, Streptococcus and Enterococcus groups are often found in the gum and periodontal tissues of humans, and are also responsible for causing disease in birds. Although these bacteria may normally be found on the skin and mucous membranes, they may be responsible for causing disease if cultured from other sites. These organisms may produce toxins and pathogenicity factors that can make a bird ill. They may also be considered to be secondary invaders. If these bacteria get into the bloodstream, they may cause clot-inducing infections, joint and bone lesions or heart problems. If Staph gets into the bloodstream, it may cross into the central nervous system, resulting in tremors and abnormal head posture. Staph can also cause bumblefoot, or necrotizing abscesses on the bottom surface of the foot of infected birds. It may also cause dermatitis, which may turn gangrenous. In baby birds, Staph may cause an infection in the bellybutton (umbilicus) if the yolk sac is not absorbed normally. Both Strep and Enterococcus can be pathogenic, although some strains generally have a low level of ability to cause disease. They may cause the same kinds of disease as Staph can.

 

Gram-positive rods are also found in the mouth of humans, in the gum tissue or in periodontal pockets. Corynebacterium is usually recovered from clinically normal, healthy birds. Another Gram-positive rod found in the human mouth is Lactobacillus. Most of you have probably heard of this bacteria; it is often prescribed for birds after antibiotic therapy, and it is considered one of the good bacteria.

 

Some Gram-negative rods are also found in the gums and periodontal pockets of humans. Of the most common ones, Campylobacter is the one most likely to cause disease in birds. It may cause liver disease and vague signs of lethargy, decreased appetite, diarrhea (often with yellowish-staining feces) and emaciation. Bacteroides and Fusobacterium are other Gram-negative rods found in the human mouth, but their ability to cause disease in birds is not well documented.

 

Another group of bacteria, the spirochetes, have been found in the human mouth and also are sometimes found in psittacines and passerines. They may include Borrelia, Treponema, and some larger spirochetes. Most commonly, spirochetes have been implicated as a cause of infection in cockatiels, but they have also been seen in other species of birds, such as lovebirds.

 

Those are the bacteria that are found in the human mouth that can cause disease in birds; however, there are probably other bacteria that can be found in humans that do not cause dental caries. For example, the bacteria that causes tuberculosis, Mycobacterium, can be found in the sputum, and therefore the mouth, of some infected people.

 

Yeast can sometimes be found in the mouth of some humans, and it may cause disease in birds. Yeast is in the fungal family and is not a bacterium.

 

This is far from a complete list of the organisms that can be found in the human mouth, but hopefully it is enough to make you keep your birds from doing any dental work on you and to keep you from allowing your birds to eat out of your mouths.

[Guest briansmum]

i have enjoyed reading through the debate, and yes while i agree i have wondered where the information came from about apple seed, saliva, teflon etc. to be frankly honest i don't really care. i manage fine without teflon pans, it's no effort to cut the seeds out of the apples, and i dont want his beak in my mouth anyway. so if general opinion.. whether it be old wives tales or scientific fact, is that these things are bad for my bird. i don't question it, i simply don't do it. problem solved.

[siobha9]

That's my problem. I question everything. I suppose thats what a psychology background does for you! I even do that with my kids. If you think about it some of the things that our parents used to do with us as children have now been shown to be wrong, and that is through generations of parents and scientists testing and retesting.

 

I would imagine in years to come, if there is still an internet, and this site is still active! people will read what we have written and wonder why we did what we did, and why we thought what we thought, as many of our "old wives tales" will be proven to be just that.

I just want to know now, rather than then....

 

Siobhan

[mervyn2233]

Sorry guys a little of topic here but can you believe I live in the Republic Of Ireland and there is only one avian vet that deals with exotic birds such as parrots in the whole country with a population of over 5 million isnt that disgraceful .As i am lookin to get my bird checked out ,not that he has any problems i just want to see how he is coming along .<br><br>Post edited by: mervyn2233, at: 2007/11/09 13:42

[siobha9]

Yes I can And can you believe I live nearly 3 hours drive from her! You are a bit closer I think.

 

I am lucky my vet has a special interest in birds, and what he doesnt know he will look up for me gladly. I usually phone him first and tell him what I see with my birds, and then by the time I get there he has some ideas. He also calls the avian vet if he has to.

 

Bummer isnt it?

[mervyn2233]

It sure is siobhan i think the avian vet is somewhere in wicklow according to a vet i called one time .I dont know wether to trust just any vet to be honest when all they prob do is search the web whereas we could do that at home ourself know what i mean .

[Tokisdad]

Well all this talk about Toxic Food is not helping me any. I spent hours on that Spaghetti Dinner, nobody touched it, I poured it out in the dogs bowl...and he ran away. There's some toxic stuff for ya....

 

{Feel-bad-00020068}

[siobha9]

She is in Bray. Not sure if I am allowed to advertise here, but since she is the only one it is a monopoly so there is probably no harm!

 

Bairbre O'Malley

Kilmantain Place, Bray, Co Wicklow

Tel 01 272 3857

 

I have never been to her, but my vet knows her, and calls her. That way I only pay his fee and not hers. I am sure she is probably expensive being the only one in the country.

 

Siobhan