Is a Oil heater + PVC sheets bird safe?

[phangtonpower]

Last year, with the recommendation from you fine folks, I bought an Oil filled radiator style heater to keep my CAG warm in the winter months. Last year I covered almost his whole cage including the heater with blankets to keep the heat inside his cage. I had a some lighting under the blankets so he would have light. This year I was thinking of using PVC sheets to cover some of his cage so that more natural light would come in. Do you guys think it would be safe with the heater? Last year I asked if clear vinyl sheets would work, but some of you reminded me that vinyl sheets have a smell to them.

[phangtonpower]

Ok after researching more I learned that the vinyl sheets I was talking about is PVC, but what I'm talking about is a really thin sheet of PVC similar to acrylic.

 

Maybe it can be used?

[phangtonpower]

Anyone with any ideas?

I don't want our bird's cage to be covered with blankets all winter long again.

And Japanese houses aren't insulated.

[Acappella]

It's hard to visualize what you mean. Are you basically building a shell around the cage and putting a heater inside the shell, because that's how I understand what you're saying. I'd be concerned about the pvc heating up and emitting fumes that might be toxic.

[Timbersmom]

How cold is it where your CAG's cage is? They can adapt to a pretty broad temperature range.

[Dave007]

You really need to post some pictures about what you're doing. It's hard to visualize what you mean and you need to tell us what the average temp is in your house. You're making it sound like your bird is living in a tent with a heater and if you are, that's no good.

[phangtonpower]

Best picture I have of my setup. I don't have it setup yet as it's not cold enough. The picture was from last year. It does get to be 26 degrees here in the winter and Japanese houses aren't insulated and a made to be drafty.

 

The Heater I'm using is similar to the one pictured and is on a rack so it's lifted from the ground closer to the cage.

 

I'm Planning on using the hard(?) pvc sheets to cover the the back and top completely and the front about half way. I would still use blankets on the side because I don't know how I would enclose the heater to connect to the cage. Plus I don't really want the pvc to be that close to the heater. It also makes it easier to access food and water dishes if I use blankets on the side.

 

The PVC I'm thinking of using is stiff, but thin enough were it's flexible. kind of like the plastic they would use for soda bottles but maybe a little thicker.

[chezron]

Is your bird NOT in your heated house? Where do you live? This sounds bad. African greys need to be in conditions similar to conditions where humans are comfortable. Plastic and PVC and enclosed heat sounds like a problem for a sensitive respiratory system--like a bird has. I imagine all sorts of off-gassing and inhalation of compounds that should not be inhaled. Please describe the full extent of where you are, what you are doing, and why it is necessary. A bird should not have to live in the condtions that you describe.

Edited October 18, 2014 by chezron

[phangtonpower]

Before anyone judges me on how I shouldn't be doing things, please take into consideration that I live in another country. I try and provide for our fid as best as I can with what I have to work with.

 

This a typical Japanese setup which probably cost about $1000. I had to ship my cage from the states, and it still cost less than the size cage they use here.

 

Edited October 18, 2014 by phangtonpower

[phangtonpower]

No. I live in Japan and most houses are not insulated or have central heating. Most places still use kerosene heaters.

 

It's sad because pet stores are selling CAGS without the proper equipment to house these guys. I order most things from the states.

[phangtonpower]

If using PVC is out of the question, what would you guys suggest be the best way to heat her cage and only her cage.

 

I usually just suffer and layer clothes and sit under my heated table all winter ><

 

I swear our bird eats and lives better than me and my wife

[Acappella]

I'm starting to see what you mean. There is a real cultural difference in the care provided for these birds and I commend you for trying to provide the best possible life for your bird. You're essentially trying to build a small room around your bird and heating the inside of the room. How did you keep the heater from making physical contact with the blankets you used last winter?

[phangtonpower]

I'm starting to see what you mean. There is a real cultural difference in the care provided for these birds and I commend you for trying to provide the best possible life for your bird. You're essentially trying to build a small room around your bird and heating the inside of the room. How did you keep the heater from making physical contact with the blankets you used last winter?

 

I have a red lored amazon back home in California with my family there, so a little spoiled with the options back home, and you can't go back from what you learned. I think CAGs are big here because they're small pets that "don't need much space" and aren't loud as other parrots.

 

I use a rack similar to this for the heater, but it has three shelves that are adjustable.

 

The blanket never touches the heater, nor does the heater get hot enough to burn anything. It's gets hot enough where it's uncomfortable to touch. I want to keep the blankets on the sides for better ventilation as well being able to cover areas that may cause small drafts.

Edited October 18, 2014 by phangtonpower

[Timbersmom]

What is the temp inside your house? You gave the temp outside but I was wondering how cold it is in the house. I'm getting a better grasp of the problem you have now.

[phangtonpower]

What is the temp inside your house? You gave the temp outside but I was wondering how cold it is in the house. I'm getting a better grasp of the problem you have now.

 

Hmmm sorry about that, it get's about 40 degrees. Maybe colder. I know it gets cold enough to see your breath. That is why Japanese have fancy toilets with heated seats.

[KimKim]

Can you get a heated perch or heat panel?

 

http://www.amazon.com/K-H-Thermo-Perch-Small/dp/B000795ZE0 (my grey wouldn't go on it)

 

http://www.avitec.com/category-s/50.htm (this worked well for us)

 

Does the blanket stay open in the front during the day? If the blanket is working, maybe try a lighter color blanket do it's not so dark?

[phangtonpower]

Can you get a heated perch or heat panel?

 

http://www.amazon.com/K-H-Thermo-Perch-Small/dp/B000795ZE0 (my grey wouldn't go on it)

 

http://www.avitec.com/category-s/50.htm (this worked well for us)

 

 

Does the blanket stay open in the front during the day? If the blanket is working, maybe try a lighter color blanket do it's not so dark?

 

Negative on either of those. The only option they have here to keep birds warm are heat bulb things. You can see it in the second picture I posted on Japanese setups. I use one for his sleep cage, but it's way to small for his main cage.

 

I actually cover the front maybe a quarter way, otherwise the heat escapes. We actually sit on the ground so we can still interact with him.

Edited October 19, 2014 by phangtonpower

[chezron]

I am having a difficult time understanding how you can have a heated toilet seat and an oil heater, but you can't have a heated perch? Please give us the full story. Do you lack outlets? Does your house lack insulation? Are homes typically not heated in Japan? I am not being judgmental but I am trying to understand. We really have no concept of what you are dealing with unless you explain it, like you would explain it to a retarded person. I wouldn't use PVC as a cover as the off-gassing is toxic and if it gets warms it will off-gas more. This quote is for HUMANS and birds have MUCH more sensitive respiratory systems. I would use cotton canvas that was washed to remove treatments. PVC also releases phosgene gas and hydrochloric acid when heated which are both EXTREMELY toxic--even for humans.

 

"Chronic Effects:

Chronic exposure to fumes and vapors from heated or thermally decomposed plastics may cause an asthma-like syndrome due to the inhalation of process vapors or fumes. The onset of irritation maybe delayed for several hours. Fumes or vapors may accumulate within the facility during normal operating procedures that involve elevated temperatures. Exposure to these elevated concentrations, if not adequately ventilated, may have significant health effects."

 

 

[phangtonpower]

I am having a difficult time understanding how you can have a heated toilet seat and an oil heater, but you can't have a heated perch? Please give us the full story. Do you lack outlets? Does your house lack insulation? Are homes typically not heated in Japan? I am not being judgmental but I am trying to understand. We really have no concept of what you are dealing with unless you explain it, like you would explain it to a retarded person. I wouldn't use PVC as a cover as the off-gassing is toxic and if it gets warms it will off-gas more. This quote is for HUMANS and birds have MUCH more sensitive respiratory systems. I would use cotton canvas that was washed to remove treatments. PVC also releases phosgene gas and hydrochloric acid when heated which are both EXTREMELY toxic--even for humans.

 

"Chronic Effects:

Chronic exposure to fumes and vapors from heated or thermally decomposed plastics may cause an asthma-like syndrome due to the inhalation of process vapors or fumes. The onset of irritation maybe delayed for several hours. Fumes or vapors may accumulate within the facility during normal operating procedures that involve elevated temperatures. Exposure to these elevated concentrations, if not adequately ventilated, may have significant health effects."

 

 

 

Most old houses have no insulation, or very minimal insulation, and are made to be drafty. Windows are mostly single pane glass. Houses are drafty to let air in during summer so things don't get moldy. Also because Japan has a lot of natural disasters, houses are made a little weaker so they fall apart more easily and are easily built up again. Japanese also don't really like old things, so usually don't buy old houses, but instead tear them down and build new houses which maybe better insulated, but are very pricey and not an option.

 

Not too many places have central air. I used to teach elementary schools here. In the summer kids sat in their own sweat and in winters would layer up. Only heating would be a kerosene heater placed in each room in the front, so kids in the back where cold.

 

I would have bought a heated perch and the panel heater thing from the states since they don't sell them here, but the voltage in Japan is different, so I probably wouldn't be able to use them to their full potential. Plus it's so cold that I would still have used blankets anyway.

 

Japan is not at all high tec like most people think.

 

Is there any kind of clear paneling I can use besides glass that wont be toxic? Also since I'm going to keep the blankets on the sides, would there be enough ventilation for out gassing? Last year I measured the temperature inside the cage with the blankets and it was at about 80 degrees. Is that too hot for the PVC to start out gassing more?

 

I wish Japanese cared for their pets like we do back home since most people use soft PVC to completely cover cages during the winter.

Edited October 19, 2014 by phangtonpower

[Muse]

Most old houses have no insulation, or very minimal insulation, and are made to be drafty. Windows are mostly single pane glass. Houses are drafty to let air in during summer so things don't get moldy. Also because Japan has a lot of natural disasters, houses are made a little weaker so they fall apart more easily and are easily built up again. Japanese also don't really like old things, so usually don't buy old houses, but instead tear them down and build new houses which maybe better insulated, but are very pricey and not an option.

 

Not too many places have central air. I used to teach elementary schools here. In the summer kids sat in their own sweat and in winters would layer up. Only heating would be a kerosene heater placed in each room in the front, so kids in the back where cold.

 

I would have bought a heated perch and the panel heater thing from the states since they don't sell them here, but the voltage in Japan is different, so I probably wouldn't be able to use them to their full potential. Plus it's so cold that I would still have used blankets anyway.

 

Japan is not at all high tec like most people think.

 

Is there any kind of clear paneling I can use besides glass that wont be toxic?

 

I wish Japanese cared for their pets like we do back home since most people use soft PVC to completely cover cages during the winter.

 

It does not sound like it is an issue of caring for pets. I do know that we were taught in nursing school that the Japanese culture is used to a much smaller 'personal space' because they often live in very small quarters. It only makes sense that they would adjust pet housing down to a proportion of their available space. It sounds like just a difference in cultures. I think the heated perch (if you can use it) would be your best option, as the bird does regulate their temperature via the feet. I see where this could be a problem: http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2225.html It does say "especially equipment involving heating (e.g. hair dryers), may not work properly or even get damaged."

 

Perhaps for the enclosure you might consider polycarbonate, such as is used for making greenhouses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarbonate

 

The greenhouse panels are what the aviaries at Project Perry are constructed of (the sections that are heated in the winter). Something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Polycarbonate-Panel-8mm-Clear-wide/dp/B007ZTKCIE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1413701550&sr=8-1&keywords=Polycarbonate+Panels (not available at this link but the pictures are excellent at showing the item). It has insulating properties because of the channels and double-walled design.

 

Hope this is helpful to you.

[phangtonpower]

It does not sound like it is an issue of caring for pets. I do know that we were taught in nursing school that the Japanese culture is used to a much smaller 'personal space' because they often live in very small quarters. It only makes sense that they would adjust pet housing down to a proportion of their available space. It sounds like just a difference in cultures. I think the heated perch (if you can use it) would be your best option, as the bird does regulate their temperature via the feet. I see where this could be a problem: http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2225.html It does say "especially equipment involving heating (e.g. hair dryers), may not work properly or even get damaged."

 

Perhaps for the enclosure you might consider polycarbonate, such as is used for making greenhouses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarbonate

 

The greenhouse panels are what the aviaries at Project Perry are constructed of (the sections that are heated in the winter). Something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Polycarbonate-Panel-8mm-Clear-wide/dp/B007ZTKCIE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1413701550&sr=8-1&keywords=Polycarbonate+Panels (not available at this link but the pictures are excellent at showing the item). It has insulating properties because of the channels and double-walled design.

 

Hope this is helpful to you.

 

 

Very helpful thanks. Now to figure out what polycarbonate is in Japanese and if they sell it at a reasonable price. Also do you guys think acrylic would be another option?

 

I'm sure Japanese love there bird's as much as we do since they are twice the price here, but they are not as informed as we are in the states. I mean the cages aren't even as big as the 24"x24" minimum size requirement and they do use the soft vinyl sheeting to cover cages with heaters touching it in the winter. They still tie dogs on short leads here and I'm always really sad when I see them.

Edited October 19, 2014 by phangtonpower

[phangtonpower]

Ok I found some polycarbonate at a local home center just like the link from amazon. I also found flat sheets of it. Since I'm using a reptisun 5.0 bulb ( I know, I know, we're not supposed to use reptile lighting, but I've read here that reptisun and aviansun are the same thing according to the manufacturer. Can't find anything specifically for birds here, but I have seen reptisun.) Will using the polycarbonate that is built for insulating that is layered weaken the light or would a flat sheet be better? I prefer the flat sheet, so If he wants to look out the window, things aren't distorted.

[Acappella]

OK, so I'm kind of famous for jury-rigging or MacGyvering things together, so I was thinking, what if you built a plywood box around the cage and then made windows out of the polycarbonate. YOu could make a door as well. Just make hinges out of rope so that in the spring the whole thing just collapses and stacks together. You could drill holes so that you can hear and respond to each other.

 

btw, I could never live in those conditions because I hate being cold, and because my heart would hurt for those animals I see living in conditions less than I feel they should be.

[phangtonpower]

OK, so I'm kind of famous for jury-rigging or MacGyvering things together, so I was thinking, what if you built a plywood box around the cage and then made windows out of the polycarbonate. YOu could make a door as well. Just make hinges out of rope so that in the spring the whole thing just collapses and stacks together. You could drill holes so that you can hear and respond to each other.

 

btw, I could never live in those conditions because I hate being cold, and because my heart would hurt for those animals I see living in conditions less than I feel they should be.

 

 

Great idea, except that real estate is still important Trying to make it as compact as possible. I really do appreciate the idea. Maybe one day though I do love DIY.

Just don't have the time or tools.

 

Remember when I said people here don't like buying old houses, well it's actually cheaper here to buy an old house then to buy the land it sits on because you are charged to demolish the house and to clear what ever is left behind to build a new one in which most people do. Well found an old house for really cheap, but since the house I live in now is similar in construction, I never mentioned it. Only problem it's smaller. Plenty of room for the 3 of us though.

 

Trust me I would move back home, but there is ban on "all poultry" to enter the states from Japan. There is a pet shop here that has a Macaw. I was so excited to see it until I saw the cage it's apparently lived the last 20 years of life in. Never even went in and try not to even look at the direction of the shop when I drive past since it's right in the front window. I wish I could do a non profit sanctuary for surrendered pet birds, but non-profit is not that great here and am poor myself. I'm sure in a few years there is going to be a lot of people giving up their CAGSs since most people don't understand the requirements of having a bird in their families and there is constant supply for them here.

[Muse]

It is hard to share space with pets when your own space is small. We Americans often take our huge houses and big yards for granted sometimes. If the birds get lots of out of cage time, they won't be as restricted by the smaller cage. Sleeping cages are often very small for this reason - the bird is not in there for that long a time period. I hope you can find it. Acrylic (like Plexiglas) may be another option but I am totally unfamiliar with it's properties as far as off-gassing.