phangtonpower Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 My wife and I have CAG that normally tolerates the both of us, but recently has started biting my wife to were she draws blood. Today after getting our CAG out of it's sleeping cage, it bit my wife so hard that blood was dripping from her hand! This is something my wife has been doing for the last 4 years, so it's nothing new for our bird. When our bird does bite her, it's usually very randomly with out any warning. She doesn't want to give up on the bird, but she is starting to become hesitant to interact with our bird. I think the bird likes her as she will step up with her, allows my wife to pet her, will give my wife all the attention when we are both spending time with her, and she can even give kisses, but I may be wrong? I've noticed that when they are in the same room together, my bird is normally very quite, which is the opposite with me when we're together. Our bird will also watch her like a hawk. The thing is that our bird doesn't show any kind of aggregation when watching her. I have no idea what to tell my wife as anything I have told her hasn't really been working. She does very well when she gets bit as she wont say anything loudly. Any help would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incubus1310 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) Does the biting only happen when you're in the room??? Has she tried handling him on her own when you're not around ? Perhaps one thing you can switch up a bit and see it if helps is rather than reach in to take him out of his sleeping cage every morning, open up the cage for him and let him get out willingly and then have him step up onto your hand. My grey has never been cage territorial but I never reach into her cage to take her out. I open he door and she gets out on her own, climbs off her cage and walks over to me. Perhaps he bit your wife because he was "not ready" to come out or he felt that she "invaded his space" even though this is a routine she's done for the past four years. You also have to think about if she's done anything to upset him recently. I raised my Grey with my boyfriend and when I had to move back home, I took her with me (obviously). She didn't see him for over 4 months. When she did finally see him, she flew to him and when he reached over to pet her, she chomped down on his finger, drawing blood. I picked her up immediately and placed her back on her cage and told her "no biting." Few minutes later as we were watching tv, she flew to him again and by this time I was about to pick her up again to avoid a repeated episode but instead she lowered her head onto his chest asking for a head tickle. He was hesitant at first but gave her a head rub and she let him! She was mad because he disappeared on her. Imagine, he hand reared her for five months. After that episode, she hasn't bitten him again but he knows to watch out for the feather fluffing and the eye pinning. She was NOT HAPPY that day. Edited June 25, 2014 by incubus1310 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phangtonpower Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 She is usually in the room with me when our bird is out or when handling our bird, but usually they're alone when she takes out the bird in the morning to put her in her day cage. I try to get her to take the bird out when I'm not home, but I don't think she does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incubus1310 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Oh... Your bird needs to associate your wife as the person to also take him out of his cage as well for playtime. She doesn't necessarily have to handle her for now because I can understand she must feel hurt or "betrayed" because she's been bit but just by letting her out of her cage while your not home is a start. Also offering her treats as positive reinforcement wouldn't hurt. She needs to spend as much time with your grey as you do either by talking, whistling to her, or just silently sitting by her cage and going about her day and pretend that she's not bothered by the bite. Parrots can sense when you're stressed and they will act out if they know you fear them. My brother is SCARED of my bird and she purposely chases him because she senses he's afraid of her. Let her know that the bite she suffered today shouldn't make her have ill feelings towards your grey. Everyone has a bad day.. Lol Ruby is currently going through a moult and although she hasn't drawn blood yet, there's days that I can't touch her because those new pin feathers really hurt. I've also heard that around that age they get very moody and bitey but my grey isn't at that age yet. Hopefully someone with a much older grey can offer more advice on what else you can do to better the situation. If I come up with anything else, I'll let you know keep us updated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phangtonpower Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Well it's a little hard for her to spend as much time a I do with out bird. I work from home and she works 1-10 in the evening. But when she is home, she does offer treats when our bird is good and speaks to her a lot. More than half the stuff our bird says is stuff she learned from my wife. And trust me, she hasn't given up. It's not the first time that our bird has drew blood, but it is the first time where she was literally dripping blood from her hand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 YOU are doing a good job in trying to figure this all out, and kudos to your wife for handling it as she is and being a good sport. It is great you aren't giving up as this is probably just a testing stage, mine have done it. If I were your wife and I got bit as I tried to take her out of her cage, I would take my hand out, quietly close the door, turn my back on her and walk away out of the room. If your bird wants to come out and this becomes the routine every time your wife tries to get her out, she will eventually stop I imagine...? But don't reward her by YOU coming to her rescue to take her out, this is something your wife and your bird have to work thru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phangtonpower Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Thanks for the kind words. That is exactly what she did. She never reacts loudly when or bird has bit her, and today She closed the door, turned around then reacted. Not loudly of course. I did take the bird out a few minutes later after we cleaned all the blood. It's sleeping cage is a medium sized dog kennel. Don't think it's cage dominant over it since she's only in it when she goes to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Just curious, is the cage on the floor? I have a sleep cage for my tag, and on occasion she has been stubborn about coming out...I have had to walk away and leave her and come back several times until she realized she had to step up to come out and not bite... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phangtonpower Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Yup sleep cage is on the floor. Well she said that she bit her after she already stepped up and was taking her out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave007 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) Just like with many other situations, things change. Age and familiarity has a lot to do with changes. Think about eliminating that sleep cage. The main cage is a bird's home, day and night. The biting has been going on for quite a while? Well, birds shouldn't be sitting in cages on the floor. Birds are meant to be high up....at least at eye level ( 24 hrs a day). It really doesn't matter how long this practice has been going on. It's never too late to change situations and methods. Edited June 25, 2014 by Dave007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phangtonpower Posted June 26, 2014 Author Share Posted June 26, 2014 I have the sleep cage for a variety of reasons. First I live in Japan and it snows in the winters and houses are not insulated here. It's easier to keep the sleep cage warm and saves on electricity. Second we had our cage shipped from the states, so finding the appropriate cover for it is pretty difficult. Summers are also really hot and humid. Again there is no central AC/Heating and we need separate ACs for rooms, so to save on electricity we have the sleep cage in the same room as we sleep. It would be difficult to have to move the big cage into the same room. Third, wont getting rid of the sleep cage encourage cage dominance? Like I said, the birds biting has been very random and without warning. The sleeping cage incident was the first and worst time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phangtonpower Posted June 26, 2014 Author Share Posted June 26, 2014 The aftermath of the biting. Tried to clean as much of it as I could, but it stained. Anyone know how to remove blood stains from wood floors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbersmom Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 You might try sprinkling with baking soda then scrubbing with vinegar. Having had several blood drawing bites in the early days, I feel for your wife! Mine were over tile, thankfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phangtonpower Posted June 26, 2014 Author Share Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) Yeah she's definitely not giving up. I wont let her. So I'm guessing what everyone is saying is that it's just a phase and if my wife keeps at it, hopefully our bird will grow out of it? Edited June 26, 2014 by phangtonpower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave007 Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) I have the sleep cage for a variety of reasons. First I live in Japan and it snows in the winters and houses are not insulated here. It's easier to keep the sleep cage warm and saves on electricity. Second we had our cage shipped from the states, so finding the appropriate cover for it is pretty difficult. Summers are also really hot and humid. Again there is no central AC/Heating and we need separate ACs for rooms, so to save on electricity we have the sleep cage in the same room as we sleep. It would be difficult to have to move the big cage into the same room. Third, wont getting rid of the sleep cage encourage cage dominance? Like I said, the birds biting has been very random and without warning. The sleeping cage incident was the first and worst time. If you wanna still use that cage, at least take it off the floor and put it somewhere at eye level. Greys and other parrots don't belong on the floor. *******Third, wont getting rid of the sleep cage encourage cage dominance? ******* If someone told you this, they're wrong. There is no such thing as cage dominance. People move and change their cages all the time. We even have a section here concerning cages and stands. People only wanna know about size of cage, style of cage and quality of the cage. There's no place that talks about cage dominance but people who've removed cages from floors have reported great results. As far as AC, greys can live in warm areas, cool areas. Actually, you having a room that's humid will benefit a grey. That's how they live in the wild. Humid air is good for a grey's very dry flakey skin that contains dander. Cage Cover---use a plain old sheet or any other cloth that can cover the cage. There is no such thing as a Proper Cover. Any cage cover sold in stores is purchased in pet stores only makes a pretty area for the people to look at. In all my years of dealing with greys or other parrots, I've never come across one that complained or cared about what cage cover was used. But I'll say it again----get the cage off the floor because the one thing you can't learn about is a grey's body language when a bird is on the floor AND we have a section strictly for body language. Body language eliminates ********Like I said, the birds biting has been very random and without warning.****** If there's one bird that will show a person what he/she is about to do, it's an African grey. That includes CAGs and TAGS and all of that is in Body Language which 1000s of people here have learned about. Edited June 26, 2014 by Dave007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inara Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) You've been given some very good advice. For just a moment, put yourself into the body of your Grey. By nature they are prey animals not predators. As such, they are highly attuned to their environments and those other creatures in it. By nature, they will be fearful of animals (you and your wife) looming over them as they are most vulnerable when they are not in high place. Cage dominance is a myth, and cage aggression is usually because a human is not reading their bird, and is simply reaching (in the bird's mind) into their cage without warning and in a manner that to the bird is unpredictable. Imagine how you would react if a creature many tens of times bigger than you reached into your house, and brought you out of it anytime they felt like it. You would eventually find yourself defending not your house, but *yourself.* This is what then translates to humans as "cage aggression." It's not the cage that they are being aggressive about, it's the humans that have taught them that the only way to avoid being forced to step up or taken out of their cage, is to bite. So stop, relax, and change perspectives. It's apparent that you love your companion and want them to have the very best life possible. Find something higher that you can set the sleep cage upon -- so (as Dave007 said) it is at least at eye level. This way you and/or your wife are not triggering an instinctive fear/defense response by 1) looming over from above (something predators do) and 2) are not casting a shadow from above (again what raptors and other birds do before striking or stooping on their prey). This will go a along way. Talk softly and move slowly (but not creepily slow) when approaching the cage, and when offering to have your bird step up from it's cage, don't put your hands right up to the bird --- instead, offer your hand near the open door, ask/invite your bird to step up, and if it chooses not to, respect that and give it several seconds to change its mind. There are many days when Inara does not care to leave her cage. These are usually days that later rain or snow or somehow have a weather shift. It's natural for her to want to be safe and quiet on those days, and she has become a good weather predictor. We think that we are doing our companions a favor by taking them from their cages/homes but that is not always the case. Like us, they have days when the just want to be left alone. Since you're talking about a sleep cage, certainly it is smaller than the main cage, so I understand why you would want to move your bird from it. Perhaps try rather than moving your bird, moving the sleep cage in the morning instead near to its home cage, and opening both doors which would allow your bird to choose for itself to come out. Also, I'm a big advocate for reshaping the biting behavior, but offering a perch/stick instead of a hand. My wild caught (and highly abused Amazon) never ever did step up to my hand, but would happily move from a stick to my arm to my shoulder. My ego was not wrapped up in having him step to my hand. I was delighted he wanted to have anything at all to do with me or any other human after all he had been through. Have your wife, offer a stick for your bird to step up to. This will allow your wife to feel more relaxed, and your bird also. Always keep in mind that the majority if not all bites come from fear and/or frustration. They do not come from anger, spite, maliciousness. They happen because we are either forcing ourselves upon our birds, we are mistakenly doing something that we might think is good for our bird but they to not want at all (like taking them from their cage/home when they don't feel like going), or we are triggering their fear instinct and they are acting from their perspective in self defense. Think: YOU are giants, the bird sees you that way. So move and act accordingly. I've shared over 20 years of my life with birds who have bitten the crap out of other people and one who killed another bird, and I've not been bitten once. Ever. Now that is not saying that some day it won't happen to me. I'm not a magical "bird wizard" or "bird whisperer" but I do attribute this to being able to really read subtle changes and signals, to not expecting my birds to be anything other than birds, and to always always respecting them and allowing them to take the lead in our interactions, not the other way around. We humans train our birds to bite us out of our own naivete, our ignorance, moving too fast, disrespecting their attempts to communicate "back off" to us, our best intentions that might not be what *they* feel is best, and on the despicable end of the spectrum our neglect and abuse (and you are *not* not that end of the spectrum nor is anyone on this forum). So just keep "fear" and "frustration" in mind. Start from square one, rebuild trust, try having your wife use a perch/stick to move your bird, set the sleep cage up higher if you truly can't do without it, move the sleep cage in the mornings rather than the bird, relax, and know that sometimes our best intentions and what we think as humans is kindness, may not be how the bird sees it. Cheering for you, your wife and your companion, as I imagine your own frustration is running high. Edited June 26, 2014 by Inara 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phangtonpower Posted June 27, 2014 Author Share Posted June 27, 2014 Thank you guys very much! I will figure a way out to lift the cage of the floor, but this incident isn't about it's sleep cage. That incident was just the worst one. My wife has been bit about 4 or 5 times recently where she bled each time without warning and each time was a different incident. Most of the time she flew and attacked my wife from her main cage. My family has an Amazon back home that was bonded with me. It used to attack my little brother all the time, but never made him bleed. And as mentioned when the bird and my wife are together, the bird looks lovingly into my wife's eyes and all attention seems to be on her. How do you guys deal with being bit randomly without warning? Also in regards about not needing AC. I understand that birds like warm humid weather. I take my bird in the shower with me everyday, but when it's 95 degrees out and humid and the bird's wings are down and shes breathing hard, I think I need the AC to bring it down a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inara Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 This is good information about most of the time she flew and attacked your wife from her main cage. But in general, she seems to really like your wife. So we need to take a look at what is happening right befote the attacks. What can seem like random usually winds up having clues. Who else, if anyone, was also in the room? If someone else was in the room, where were they positioned? How far from or how close to the cage was your wife each time? What was the purpuse of her approaching or moving in the direction of the cage? Do you abundance feed your bird so that it always has access to plenty of food? Are there materials in its cage that are nestlike? Do the attacks happen in the morning, afternoon, evening? Look for clues and I bet we can all help suss this out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kins2321@yahoo.com Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 First... get the cage off the floor. Second, don't expect your wife to be " receiving the bites!" Your bird loves mama and mama doesn't know how to take care of the bird. The bird and your wife need direction. We need to meet your wife, and let her talk about their relationship. Nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phangtonpower Posted June 28, 2014 Author Share Posted June 28, 2014 Nobody else was in the room except for me. She was in the kitchen which is maybe 20 feet away from the cage. Maybe our bird was upset that she couldn't be seen? She does always have food. We have pellets for her that she can munch on anytime and also give her fruits and veggies in the evening. Sometimes some corn so we can have lunch together. Don't think we have anything nest like material in cage. Newspaper? Attacks happen during noon as that's the time my wife is home when she can spend time with the bird. Another attack happened when my wife was taking the harness off. That one I can understand as our bird doesn't really like it. The thing she hates most is to have the harness come off her head and that's when she bit. I thought she was used to it since she allows me to do it, but obviously not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inara Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 (edited) I'm wondering if it is a good idea to go back to square one with your wife and bird. By that I mesn move both back to a time of peace and success. Since you have said that the majority of attacks are hapoening at about noon, that would be the time to put your bird in its cage and shut the door. Try for several days in arow at that tme to have your wife walk over to the cage, talk softly to the bird and offer a particularly wonderful little treat if your bird is calm. If your bird appears distressed or beaky as your wife approaches, have her stand still until the bird is calm and then slowly begin continued approach. When offering the treat, either dop it into a new and extra food dish reserved only for the treat, or offer it by hand at the very outer limit of the bird's strike range. Also have her just off and on in a relaxed manner approach and sit near the cage and chat or read to you bird. Time, patience and consistency can be helpful to both your wife and your feathered companion. Also, what is your wife's routine at noon and how does this fit in with your and your bird's daily routine up to the point of your wife coming home? Have there been any more attacks since your last post? PS please excuse all of the typos I am on my mobile device and I am awful at using its keyboard. Edited July 4, 2014 by Inara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phangtonpower Posted July 6, 2014 Author Share Posted July 6, 2014 I just saw your post. Noon is about the only time my wife can spend with the bird. To tell you the truth, the bird is in the cage most of the time during that time. Today though before reading your post, my wife sat right next to her while she was in the cage. The whole time the bird looked relaxed and was watching my wife or playing with her toys like she normally does. Our bird didn't looked stressed or angry at all. I really do think She likes my wife more than me, but since I spend most time with her, I can handle her without fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kins2321@yahoo.com Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I have not responded kindly, to your posts... but you keep coming back. You really CARE about your bird, want a relationship with them.You want the relationship to be with your wife and bird, but its not going to happen! If you are fully committed, we can help you, but YOU are going to be the primary parent.If you accept the plan, I will be more than happy to help you. Nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvparrots Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Greys are great body readers. They are very intuitive and are always watching people. Is your wife afraid of the grey? If she is, your grey senses this and reacts to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phangtonpower Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 I have not responded kindly, to your posts... but you keep coming back. You really CARE about your bird, want a relationship with them.You want the relationship to be with your wife and bird, but its not going to happen! If you are fully committed, we can help you, but YOU are going to be the primary parent.If you accept the plan, I will be more than happy to help you. Nancy What you said makes no sense! If what I want isn't going to happen how are going to help me? You don't know how committed to my bird I am, just like how I don't know how committed you are. Seems like you spend more time on here than with your birds If I wasn't committed do you think I would be on here asking questions? Just like our birds every situation is different, so please stop being a "Negative Nancy" I'm only asking for help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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