Hi, new here.

[itsmeorthebird]

I have "inherited" a 30-ish year old timneh called Bogart. The story I'm given is that my mother-in-law found the bird in a pet store, he was growling and miserable and so was the owner because the bird was frightening his customers. Feeling pity for the bird, she asked how much the bird was. The owner replied “give me $100 and get it the **** out of here”, so she did. He was young at the time (probably 1988-89), and almost definatly wild caught. I’m told he was handled and did some tricks but they stopped handling him because he bit a few times, and also had the habit of terrorizing my wife (as a young child). She still doesn’t really like the bird but does tolerate him, and most of the dislike is due to bad behavior which was poorly dealt with. It seems that they tried to train/discipline the bird using the same methods they used on their dogs, which as you can imagine didn’t work so well. I met the bird when my wife and I started dating and I was told then not to put my hands near the cage because he bites. He was kept mostly in his cage and only occasionally let out. He was cared for as far as food and water but as both parents worked and 2 of the 3 kids had moved out he didn’t get a lot of attention. Last year my in-laws sold their house and moved into an RV trailer while they began building another house, and as there was no room in the trailer for the bird it came to live with us. The house is still not built yet, and they have decided that the bird is much happier here and gets more attention so here on a more or less permanent basis.

 

I didn’t know anything about Greys when Bogart arrived here, but as I’ve learned things I’ve tried to make life a bit better for him. We open his cage all day so he can climb around it again, I obtained a disused cat tower from my sister that sits next to his cage, and he loves to climb all over both. My wife and two children (ages 28 months and 15 months) are home all day, so he has company. I try to spend at least 30 minutes with him after work. We have a two story house, and we have to keep Bogart upstairs because of small fingers and the history of biting, but he stays at the top of the stairs and still has contact with those downstairs. He doesn’t fly, but he has flapped down to the floor a few times. I don’t handle him yet, though I think he really wants me to. I’ve been trying to take time and just get him comfortable with me (and me with him).

 

I typed all that this morning. This afternoon I went to spend some time with Bogart, he climbed down from the tower for the first time using a ladder I had put there. He waled around a bit and seemed to be having fun, the walked up to me and climbed into my lap (I was sitting on the floor). I was giving him treats and showing I was happy, but he seemed more interested in exploring than eating. It should be noted here that a little nervous, especially when he loses footing and flaps and such. I think he knew that, and he got a little aggressive. I moved my arm closer and he lunged at it, I firmly told him "no," he lost balance and I had to catch him with my hand which now has some nice new scratches on it. I got him back up to the tower and game him another treat, making sure to end the experience on a positive note. Even though he drew blood I'm excited about this development. I was planning on joining this community today, but after this it became a necessity, because I need guidance to be able to give him a good home and overcome 30 years of bad habits and misunderstanding.

[danmcq]

Wow, nice introduction and history of Bogarts life to this point. Welcome to the Forum.

 

It sounds like you are doing everything right, especially using positive reinforcement on behaviors like biting that you are trying to lessen. There is a thread in another are here that you should read by Katana and her grey that was severely abused in previous homes. It will shed a lot of light on dealing with a grey such as this. Your in it for the long haul it seems and you will have good and bad days as you probably already suspect or know. Ask away, we have many members here with a ton of experience.

 

Here is the I referred to: http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?192443-Gilbert-is-home

[Luvparrots]

Hello to you and Bogart. Try to relax around Bogart. Greys are very intuitive and can sense your attitude and feelings/fears. I believe Bogart truly wants to be your friend so enjoy and relax and both of you will learn together. There is oodles of information here on the forum so read, read, read and ask, just ask and we will help if we can. Welcome to the Grey family!

[Timbersmom]

Hello and welcome to you and Bogart! Post some pics when you can, and keep us posted on Bogart's progress. When I rehomed my bird, nothing progressed at the rate I expected. Building trust with him and most African greys is a very slow process. Don't give up, patience and time wins the day and it is well worth it when you win their trust. Good luck and God bless!

[Brat Birds]

Welcome! Yes, it will take a LOT of patience and time, but boy will it be worth it when you have a companion in the end. Bogart is a lucky bird to have found you. Just remember he has had years of mistreatment - even though not physical. It might seem like a long time to you, but a year is just a short time to Bogart. My guess is that you have a good year, if not more, work to do. Best of luck.

[Ray P]

Hi and welcome to you and Bogart to the grey forum.

Take the time to let him settle in to his new home. Talk to him, give him treats and just be there for him with a kind word and a gentle touch.

[itsmeorthebird]

Thanks everyone! I will get some pictures as soon as I can. I've tried to do a lot of research already, but some of what I found was conflicting and most of it was very general. I've already found some good information here, and decided to join because people seemed so helpful. This is all new to me, I've never had a bird before, nor even handled one. I am optimistic though, as he seems to be responding well and learning so far.

[judygram]

Hello Itsmeorthebird and welcome to our family.

 

I love your log in name, it kind of says it all. You have your work cut out for you but the important thing is it will take time, lots of it and patience to allow him to learn to trust you, this is so important when you are dealing with an older bird but it sounds like you are willing to put in the time it takes to earn that trust. Be sure to read thru as many of the threads as possible and especially the one Dan mentioned for it will give you an idea of what to expect and just continue to ask questions.

[Quirky]

Welcome! I look forward to hearing more about you and Bogart, there are members here with experience of having a wild caught parrot as a companion. It will be a long and at times difficult process but the reward of companionship will be worth it.

[itsmeorthebird]

The user name was my wife's suggestion, fortunately she wasn't serious. I tried to get a good picture but as he's always moving they all turned out blurry, so that will have to wait for now. There is a development today: I actually let him on my arm a few minutes ago. Knowing his history I couldn't bring myself to offer him bare flesh, so I donned my armored motorcycle jacket and gloves. I know many say never to use gloves, but he has always been handled before with them and he showed no discomfort with them or the jacket. Even after donning said attire he was practically jumping off the perch to get to me, so I offered my arm. He immediately stepped out onto it and proceeded to attack it mercilessly. He seemed puzzled that I didn't flinch or react, so he attacked the arm some more. It really is a great jacket. During this I tried firmly telling him "no" and blowing on his face (as I've read that can stop biting), but neither had much effect. I had put my arm inside his cage both to keep him from trying to go up my arm (which he didn't), and to give him a place to go if he wanted. After about 2 minutes he climbed onto the cage, I stepped away a bit for a couple of minutes then came back and gave him a treat to try and keep it a positive experience. All in all it didn't go badly, I'm unscathed and hopefully this will help teach him that biting doesn't work. At least he didn't seem to have any fear of coming to me.

[Inara]

Welcome to you and Bogart! Yes, for every expert opinion there are equal and opposite experts so take what works for you and your bird/family as there is indeed a wealth of information here. I've had the honor of having shared my life with two wild caught birds, and have a soft spot for anyone who accepts into their home, life and heart an older bird who may or may not have issues. Sounds like Bogie wants to be your bud, but slow it down a bit with him. What you do now will set the tempo for the rest of your relationship and Greys have loooooooooooooong memories. Please don't blow in his face. That is really not a good training technique and is unnecessary.

 

Flooding him, by letting him attack your arm, albeit shielded in leather, is not really teaching him that biting is futile -- but rather Resistence Is Futile. What you want to work toward is mutual trust, not his submission. Many birds, really don't like bare skin to begin with. It can be a bit freaky for them, since they are feathered. So long sleeved shirt is a great idea, and just offer your arm near his open door. Refrain from putting your arm into his cage at this point, because he needs to be able to retreat. Biting comes from fear and frustration, not from aggression -- until we as humans teach aggression by training methods that are outdated and ineffective, or by our own fear responses, behaviors from us that trigger their fear responses, or from neglect/abuse, pain/illness.

 

So glad to know that you are following up with a positive experience, now move toward making *every* interaction a positive one. You will be amazed at how Bogie will move along. He's made it clear he wants to be friends with you, let him call the shots. Remember, that a reach toward you with his beak is not always a motion that will end in a bite, it is often a motion of affection (open beak with light pressure). Yes, he may not have appeared to be freaked out by gloves or the leather sleeves, but those are often what were worn way back when when birds such as Bogie were captured and stuffed into sacks and boxes as they were torn out of the wild. Hence the going to town on your sleeved arm, perhaps, sounds a bit freaked out to me.

 

Relax, give him boatloads of treats, if you offer your arm and he does come to it, rather than putting your arm back in his cage, just hold your arm close enough to his cage so that he can climb onto the cage itself easily, and move slowly. Don't stare at him, but rather tilt your head and look at him sideways here and there, and keep your body relaxed and movements slow. Offer him treats at about the extent of his beak reach, so that he does not have the ability to get in a good quick bite when reaching for the treat, either.

 

I am so loving that you are going to have a great pal sooner than you think, and am excited that you are so willing and committed to learning about how to develop the best relationship possible with your new bud.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Inara

[Acappella]

I agree with Inara on the aggression vs fear response. Take a look at the thread on body language in the Training forum room.

http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?109373-Body-language-most-frequently-seen

 

It should help you differentiate between when he's coming to you to interact positively and when he's coming to you to 'attack' or assert himself. I also agree that you should not be trying to get him to step up from inside the cage. As he had been cage bound, against his will, for so long, he is likely very cage defensive. Try attaching a perch to the outside of his cage, and when you see him on it, ask for a step up from there. Actually, if I were in your position (and I was in a similar one with my Dorian) I wouldn't worry too much right now about physical contact. Since there have been attempts to train him using dominance techniques he may have learnt to assert himself in a negative manner in new interactions. Eg. He seemed eager to step up onto your arm, but then immediately attacked it. Better to spend lots of time just sitting by his cage talking to him, reading to him, letting him observe you and the household. I understand you wanting to protect little fingers by keeping him in a separate room, but he does need as much chance as possible just to watch the house and it's inhabitants. Could you spend more time in his room with family if you did it only when his cage was closed? Then open up the door and let him climb around when it's just the two of you. Thank you for taking in this older grey, especially when you already have two little ones in the home. Hopefully you'll all grow into a greyt flock together!

[itsmeorthebird]

Thanks for the responses, the blowing technique will be completely abandoned. It didn't work anyway. To clarify, I dd not pick him up from his cage, he was on the table next to the cage. I only put my arm into the cage to change food and water and to clean, and preferably not when he's inside it. I also don't give him treats when he's in or on his cage. I reached into the cage this time to give him somewhere to go if he wanted and to try and make him more comfortable. When I came back after this interaction he was still trying to get to me as always, and he seemed quite happy. Upon reflection, it is my conclusion that he hates the gloves and jacket. He does not seem uncomfortable with them when I'm simply standing there, but when he was on my arm all he wanted to do was attack and nothing seemed to distract or dissuade him, so those will also be set aside and only used in dire need. I'm afraid there will be a lot of trial and error involved here, but the comments and insights are very helpful. There is a lot to learn.

As far as family interaction goes, the children still don't quite understand fear and they touch and grab things without reluctance and until that changes I can't give them much access to the cage. They are starting to learn not too touch certain things, so it hopefully it won't be too long. The ultimate plan is to have him in the living room with the family during the day, it will just take a little time to get there.

[Inara]

I think you will do a great job with him. It is apparrent from your posts that you are invested in learning all that you can and that you are empathetic with your bird. We all will be cheering you on and looking forward to updates

[murfchck]

Welcome and congrats to you!

Others have all pointed out wonder tips for you to help, I can only add to that about the jacket. I have several birds and get bit quite often, but one of our greys bite is much worse than a macaws and I am not liked much by her. The only time I could handle her was when she was on the floor, she would then let me pick her up and not even nip at me. I had so many scabs at one point (moving her from the cage to the living room stand, to add here, she wanted to go to the living room I never forced her to go it is just her habit to bite me when she steps up) that she had started re-biting areas that hadn't healed yet, I took to just draping a cloth over my arm to protect myself. Fast forward to today and she now will only step up to me if I have that cloth on my arm, so unless you want to wear that jacket each and every time you handle him I would start weaning him from it. lol For me it is double the trouble now because the cloth I used was a small blanket that we drape over a chair that another grey has claimed as hers and when I take that blanket, she dive bombs me and has bit me a few times on the shoulder and neck, warning bites, but a bite is a bite! I have tried to change the cloth to something else but then Cotay won't step up at all. lol.

[katana600]

You really have double the work getting Bogart to trust you as you overcome the status quo he has learned over the decades but also to overcome the view your wife has had of him since her earliest memories. Add to that the two little ones in the house to protect and eventually bring in to love and bond with Bogart. Gilbert's fourth home had four kids under eight and they referred to "him" as that mean gray bird. Some of our members with young kids have been able to put a gate up and keep one room as bird/child safe. You will find the best way for your family. As Bogart comes along and wants to join you, a way that worked for us with dogs in the house was to put a floor stand in a babies playpen and put the parrot in protective custody. I think what helped me most in working with Gilbert was to learn that a parrot is a prey animal and to them every interaction has the potential of them ending up as a meal. They are very aware of this. As much as you can, give Bogart clues as to what is going to happen next. When he can predict that you are consistently trustworthy, he will begin his relationship with you. Loving him always, even when he seems utterly ungrateful will pay big dividends when you reach a companion status. You can do this. Thank you for being willing and learning as you go.

[itsmeorthebird]

An interesting event happened today. I went to spend time with Bogart after I got home from work as usual. We have developed a routine that the first thing I do is give him a light spray bottle bath, which he enjoys, and then I give him a treat. I keep a rocking chair next to the surface of the cat tower he plays on, and I'm usually sitting there during this routine. Today as I turned to put the container of peanuts down he flapped into my lap, a distance of about 18 inches. Usually he only tried to fly when he's tripped or lost his balance to get to the floor safely, I've not seen him intentionally flap to something before, so this is a development. As soon as he got to my lap I gave him another treat, once he finished that he proceeded to gnaw on my shirt (I guess he thought it needed ventilation), but as it was loose fitting he didn't catch my skin any. I was able to remain calm, and I offered him a perch. Normally he bites the perch unless he's stuck on the floor, which has made teaching "step up" a challenge, but he stepped right up onto it and I moved him safely back onto his tower. And gave him another treat.

I've been trying to take my time and not rush things, I find it's difficult many times to tell exactly when to take the next step or what the next step should be, but we're both learning and I will continue to update as new developments take place. Thanks to everyone for the shared information and for helping me to interpret what Bogart is telling me. I've read the general behavior descriptions, but sometimes it's very hard to match what is written with what I'm seeing. Right now the two issues I'm dealing with are that 1: he's a very picky eater, he won't touch any vegetable I offer and most fruits are out too. I feed him a seed/pellet mix, he eats the seeds but nothing else. He will also eat apple, and he loves peanuts so I reserve those as treats. 2: he snaps or lunges when a hand gets too close. He doesn't do it if the hand has food in it, and he doesn't always do it. I'm still trying to find a cause beyond it being a learned behavior from his past life, but I haven't found anything yet.

[itsmeorthebird]

I tried to post an update here yesterday but apparently it didn’t take. We had an interesting development yesterday when I went to spend time with Bogart after I got home from work. We have developed a routine where I first give him a light spray bottle bath (which he seems to enjoy) and then give him a treat. I keep a rocking chair next to his tower so I can sit and spend time with him, and I was sitting there at the time. As I reached to put the container of peanuts on the floor he flapped into my lap. Normally he only tries to fly after he’s tripped or lost his balance in an effort to reach the floor safely, this is the first time I’ve seen him actually try to land on something. I immediately gave him another treat, and after eating that he started gnawing on my shirt (I guess he thought it needed some ventilation). Fortunately the shirt was loose fitting and he didn’t catch my skin. I offered him the perch and he stepped right up on it, then I moved him safely back to his tower. And gave him another treat.

I can see progress being made and I am taking things slowly, being careful not to rush things. I’ve read the behavior guides, but it’s frequently difficult to take what I’m seeing and match it with the descriptions. It’s difficult to figure out what the next step should be. Bogart seems to have no problem coming to me or climbing into my lap, and I feed him treats from my hand every day which he takes quite gently. I'm still very nervous about offering him my bare hand though, because when he does bite he bites like a dog: he chomps and gnaws and won't stop or let go until he's good and ready to. That does a lot of damage.

I understand overcoming this (my fear and his ferocity) will take time and I will not rush it, but I really don't have any idea of how to go about overcoming it. All I really know to do is continue to try to get him more comfortable with me, but how do I reciprocate when he jumps into my lap and shows trust and affection without making him uncomfortable?