handfeeding advice & poopologist needed

[aunali9]

Oh yeah. I really don't care if he doesn't talk. Its his thinking process that amazes me. He knows that round objects roll for example. That the transformers waist can turn. That his food bowl is emptying. Things like that. Its amazing and they are definitely amazing companions from what I'm seeing and experiencing. He even reacts to things on TV! He's just eight and a half weeks old or a few days more!

[Timbersmom]

They really are scary smart. What an adventure you are going to have!

[Muse]

.... (snipped)

But looking up any respiratory issues he might have developed I read about tail bobbing

I don't know what you read but tail bobbing and respitory problems have nothing to do with each other.

... (snipped)

 

 

Actually, I am not at all familiar with hand-feeding Greys, or hand-feeding any other birds for that matter as I don't believe in it. I do know that tail bobbing is a sign of what we might call in humans the use of accessory muscles when breathing and is indicative of respiratory issues in birds.

 

http://www.wingedwisdom.com/ww44eiv.htm

http://www.parrotchronicles.com/askavet/tailbobbing_askavet.htm

 

Those are just two quick links I found by searching. I was told this also by our board-certified avian vet when we had Aria treated for a respiratory infection. We caught it early and at the time a very slight tail bob was the only symptom, and with two courses of antibiotics, the problem was resolved.

[Muse]

And just one other query I have is that as the pin feathers are opening, one of his wings feathers are a tad bit longer than the other wing. They are both coming out fast but one side have opened up a little more. Is this normal?

 

Yes, feathers can come in unevenly at times. Our cockatiel moulted once and had almost full grown flight feathers on one wing and many undeveloped on the other. We had to try to keep him from flying for a while because he was unbalanced and a break to one of the blood feathers would not have been good. I have no idea why his feathers moulted this way, or why so many moulted at once. It hasn't happened since. This was right after we got him so I have to wonder if it was perhaps just an extreme first moult or maybe he had a poor diet (mostly seed) at his breeder. But eventually they all caught up and were the same size and no problems since.

[Muse]

Oh how adorable!

[aunali9]

Actually, I am not at all familiar with hand-feeding Greys, or hand-feeding any other birds for that matter as I don't believe in it. I do know that tail bobbing is a sign of what we might call in humans the use of accessory muscles when breathing and is indicative of respiratory issues in birds.

 

http://www.wingedwisdom.com/ww44eiv.htm

http://www.parrotchronicles.com/askavet/tailbobbing_askavet.htm

 

Those are just two quick links I found by searching. I was told this also by our board-certified avian vet when we had Aria treated for a respiratory infection. We caught it early and at the time a very slight tail bob was the only symptom, and with two courses of antibiotics, the problem was resolved.

 

Thank you for the advice Muse. I had the tailbob checked out. Apparently they ARE the use of accessory muscles but not a tail Bob as you would see in respiratory conditions. Its because of the earlier mentioned feeding insecurity. He used to make the begging sound very loud and forcefully and sorta whisper it at the sight of me. It wasn't his breathing causing it but the under-his-breath begging he was doing as he still pressurized air for vocalization but didn't when I was close or touching him. He didn't do it when the vet was over and I was out of sight. Since his begging problem has gone and he has started making proper sounds, I haven't seen it again.

[Muse]

Yes I did look into that Nancy. But other forums just end up flooding you with worst case scenarios and just mess with your head more. I'm actually glad only one person is advising me here.

 

On a very pleasant note, I saw the vet again and he was nice enough to take out the time for me to actually get to know my bird and spend some time with him. He said he has a problem that in his experience happens to one or two out of ever 20 or 30 parrots that he looks over. In the wild an African grey ends up feeding one or more baby more out of a clutch of 3 or 4. This is because of resource constraints as a result of which some babies eventually don't make it. The babies reaction is to beg for food incessantly. In captivity when this happens, at times even to well fed young ones, their begging ends up leading to care givers to over feed them waiting for them to show signs that they are now full. Its an insecurity issue.

 

His solution was that when I'm feeding him, I should pause after every 5 or 10 ml or so for a few days and just play around and cuddle with him for a few minutes. And then resume feeding him and he showed me himself, visually and by touch, a point at which I should stop when the crop is full. The added love and affection is reassuring for the baby and he realises he isn't being neglected for whatever reason.

 

One other issue was also a not toooo uncommon one, that since he is begging all day and his anxiety was relieved by a syringe, he developed a conditioning towards becoming relieved by it. Sort of addicted to it. He proved this in two ways, one was to present him with a spoon full of formula and an empty syringe. He turned away the spoon even after tasting the formula to tug at the syringe which was a) placed away from him b) obviously not able to feed him as it was empty. The second proof was that after feeding him with a spoon, he turned his head from it and wouldn't open his mouth even if I rubbed the sides of the base of his beak or nudged his beak with the spoon. But if I brought the empty syringe even in sight, he would start bobbing his head and begging for food.

 

Since I've basically been just spending more interactive time with him and using a spoon, he has gone back to eating 45 to 55 ml instead of the 100ml+ over feeding.

 

Over feeding: after feeding the 80-90ml+ his voice was hoarse, his breathing strained, he could hardly move, stopped preening or playing. He was sleeping only 4 or 5 hours a night but very inactive and lethargic awake he wasn't even preening or exercising his wings. His poop was less in amount and he was dehydrating. Basically if you think about it he was a very thin person fed a 2kg fatty beef steak. He couldn't digest it, it was pulling water OUT of his system, and he was showing respiratory difficulty because his abdomen was over burdened. He was also bringing up food. Which he hasn't aspirated thankfully BUT EASILY COULD HAVE which is why he was all hoarse. Just like in people the chemicals in the crop are irritant for the birds throat. He wasn't playing with toys or my nose which he loves to do. The biggest problem was I could have given him crop stasis because he was still begging for the reasons above.

 

Since new ways and routine (last 2 days): he is now eating exactly like Dave said he should. He is turning away from the spoon after 45 to 60ml depending on whether its the morning feed or the ones later in the day. After feeding though he's full, he preens himself, stretches, exercises his wings a whole lot, and stops begging completely. I can't tempt him into a single more drop of formula. Best of all he scratches at the side of the tub ive been keeping him in that I've realised means he wants out. Once out he's nibbling at everything in sight, finds my key chain and my phone a blast to mess with, and has been ripping into his toys with a vengeance. He wants to cuddle, and loves being rubbed and scratched around the neck. He responds to my voice and is very active he's pooping every 30 or so minutes. The morning dump is huge, the rest smaller. Took a nibble out of my banana and seemed to like it a lot. I'll be sure to add some to the softened pulses and veggies I leave with him now. His voice isn't hoarse and he even whistled at me today haha. Hope he keeps doing that.

 

I hope this is an end to this episode of problems. But its good to see him being his nutty self again. And many thanks to the grey forums family here, all of you, and Dave especially.

 

I thought this might add to the library of knowledge on this forum. It has been very stressful for me and my pet. Taken a toll on my studies and work. I've had to take 3 valuable days off which were worth it, but NEVER BUY AN UNWEANED BIRD. I came close to giving my baby bird the following problems:

Crop stasis resulting in infections, malnourishment, dehydration, and vomiting.

Vomiting resulting in aspiration and pneumonia and other infections.

Psychological problems that he might live with for the rest of his life.

Death because of all of the above.

 

I think you are doing a wonderful job and asking all the right questions. It sounds like you have a competent vet.

 

I am totally against hand-feeding, period, except in cases such as death of parent. We believe in co-parenting. It is the natural way of things. I have three little accidental blessings here. We didn't plan on adding to our flock at that time, but well... spring came and our green cheeked conures did what birds do in the spring and suddenly she was laying eggs. We gave them a nest and let them raise their babies. I knew the eggs were probably fertile and could not bring myself to kill them.

 

I am so glad we did. The parents fed them, they fledged from their nest as they would in the wild. I spent time with them every day when cleaning the cage and nest. The creature most equipped to feed a baby bird is a mother bird. They have genetic programming for this task that dates to the beginning of time.

 

Unfortunately, greedy breeders want to sell un-weaned birds because it takes most of their labor costs out of the equation. If they have to hand feed many birds, it is labor intensive with the frequency of the feedings. Hand feeding is difficult and risky and definitely not something for a novice, but for the love of money, it is a job that is foisted upon unsuspected owners by greedy breeders. I truly hope these breeders' karma comes around to get them at some point.

[aunali9]

Yes, feathers can come in unevenly at times. Our cockatiel moulted once and had almost full grown flight feathers on one wing and many undeveloped on the other. We had to try to keep him from flying for a while because he was unbalanced and a break to one of the blood feathers would not have been good. I have no idea why his feathers moulted this way, or why so many moulted at once. It hasn't happened since. This was right after we got him so I have to wonder if it was perhaps just an extreme first moult or maybe he had a poor diet (mostly seed) at his breeder. But eventually they all caught up and were the same size and no problems since.

 

Yeah I waited it out after reading it up a little. Scared me again recently haha. The feathers that emerged late did open eventually but a little twisted kind off. Like they didn't sit flush with his body like the other wing. As of yesterday he is completely symmetrical however and happy as ever. I watched him comb them straight. I guess he just didn't cut the casing right the first time.

 

His latest interest is in attempting to climb up the side of the cage. And eats bananas like they are Scooby snacks or something. Still no to the lentils. And he also doesn't like green peas or spinach. I'm afraid he might get less food because he even started refusing formula at smaller volumes and even an entire feeding in the morning today. I'm not holding back on the bananas or the formula. Its always available. I try to feed him every 3 hours and not let his crop empty for longer than an hour at the most.

[Muse]

Thank you for the advice Muse. I had the tailbob checked out. Apparently they ARE the use of accessory muscles but not a tail Bob as you would see in respiratory conditions. Its because of the earlier mentioned feeding insecurity. He used to make the begging sound very loud and forcefully and sorta whisper it at the sight of me. It wasn't his breathing causing it but the under-his-breath begging he was doing as he still pressurized air for vocalization but didn't when I was close or touching him. He didn't do it when the vet was over and I was out of sight. Since his begging problem has gone and he has started making proper sounds, I haven't seen it again.

 

You are welcome. I am glad you took him to the vet. It's great that it was related to his begging and not breathing and I am glad it has resolved. My boy was such a piggie, it took him weeks longer to wean than the other birds around his same age. He just did not want to wean. Up until the time he got sick, he was the best eater in the house. But he was also a very large male Grey. I hope your baby grows up to be strong and healthy!

[Muse]

haha yeah ive noticed that. if i want to tempt him to try something i have to play with it myself first. thats why im trying to give him very chopped up veggies and soaked lentils/pulses that wont make me gag. i eat a tiny bit first then he takes a lick of it, shakes his head and spits it out like it tastes like crap. speaking of which he doesnt mind tasting his own poo as much as he hates any sort of solid food except bananas! im thinking he is trying to make new sounds all the time these days. he just wants nothing better than to croak or whistle or something in my lap. its amazing watching a personality develop out of a lump of greying flesh! im glad i didnt get a dog. and i really do need to decide on a name now. any ideas on how to get him to recognize his own name?

 

I like to go to babynames.com - they have a really nice advanced search there and the names database encompasses many nationalities. They also have a fun 'renamer' that I sometimes play with to get inspiration or just see new name combinations. As far as recognizing, they are like children. It won't take him long of you calling his name before he connects it to himself. All of ours know their names, and Megan can actually identify the others by their names. They are smart creatures. Have fun picking a name!

[Muse]

Yeah I waited it out after reading it up a little. Scared me again recently haha. The feathers that emerged late did open eventually but a little twisted kind off. Like they didn't sit flush with his body like the other wing. As of yesterday he is completely symmetrical however and happy as ever. I watched him comb them straight. I guess he just didn't cut the casing right the first time.

 

His latest interest is in attempting to climb up the side of the cage. And eats bananas like they are Scooby snacks or something. Still no to the lentils. And he also doesn't like green peas or spinach. I'm afraid he might get less food because he even started refusing formula at smaller volumes and even an entire feeding in the morning today. I'm not holding back on the bananas or the formula. Its always available. I try to feed him every 3 hours and not let his crop empty for longer than an hour at the most.

 

Aww. Sounds like you are wonderful "parront"! What a lucky little guy. Have you had him sexed yet? Ours were done by the breeder before we even met them but I know many breeders do not do this. We had the green cheeked babies sexed as soon as my husband caught on that I was keeping them (*giggle*) so I could pick proper names. Your baby is so adorable. I have pictures of when ours were that small but of course they were taken by their breeder long before we ever saw them. They were almost full grown and fully feathered by the time we came into their lives.

 

Edit: Here is a picture of how raggedy my grand-fids looked when they were babies. They are gorgeously feathered now!

Edited June 9, 2014 by Muse

[aunali9]

The problem here in Pakistan is that the seller you can trust is in 99% cases the people who have the accidental increase in number of family members. They keep rings on them just in case if they are enthusiasts with a large number of birds to distinguish their birds from smuggled ones as they are brought in too old to be banded correctly. Not even "breeders" by the definition really. Its almost always breeding season also because of the weather and climate apparently and I don't know about surgical procedures for animal contraception as far as African greys or birds go but I wouldn't trust the expertise available. No one would I think. Even my vet agrees on that. There is a massive number of birds that are sold weaned but caught wild and sick. They sell cheap cost the sellers nothing but the price of smuggling a 500 gram bundle of feathers. Its even worse than actual breeders selling them young. Over here its just the only way to get a healthy bird. Since the seller isn't a breeder he will only give you what advice he can offer which isn't at all times the best. He might just have 2 birds. And it could be his first time dealing with his bird laying eggs himself. But at the very least the baby will be healthy. The guy I got the baby from wasn't really a bad person. But he was leaving the country when this guy was born and couldn't care for it himself. Apparently the parents were hostile to it. He didn't have much reason to lie because my birds siblings are still with the parents. He actually wanted to keep the baby. As a result the complications after buying are just blanketed by the actual purchase. There is a serious need for more awareness in this regard. Dogs and cats being popular aren't much of a problem and these issues don't exist in that department.

[aunali9]

Of course its a third world country but I'm sure even ten years ago we wouldn't have advanced enough to find people like me fussing this much, but progress is great either way. I'd hate for people to think badly of Pakistan by what I'm saying but I see it as an improvement that through awareness (which has been brutal to me but apparent nonetheless) we can and will eventually correct such inadequacies.

[aunali9]

Aww. Sounds like you are wonderful "parront"! What a lucky little guy. Have you had him sexed yet? Ours were done by the breeder before we even met them but I know many breeders do not do this. We had the green cheeked babies sexed as soon as my husband caught on that I was keeping them (*giggle*) so I could pick proper names. Your baby is so adorable. I have pictures of when ours were that small but of course they were taken by their breeder long before we ever saw them. They were almost full grown and fully feathered by the time we came into their lives.

 

Edit: Here is a picture of how raggedy my grand-fids looked when they were babies. They are gorgeously feathered now!

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Haha i remember my little guy looking like that, only much more grey! im the only one among my friends who didn't describe him as a grey flesh pin cushion. Looked about as cute as my nieces and nephews to me And i totally forgot to mention that DNA sexing takes place in a different city here. a good vet can send samples but they insist i wait a few weeks! i should listen to them i guess. I'll call him Marcus or her Cleo

[aunali9]

Alright guys. More questions headed your way

 

My parrot is eating well, playful makes funny noises and is quite cuddly. I think he's doing well. I'm feeding him softened pulses and beans which he eats but generally only if I give them to him in a spoon. Formula is turned down in reduced amounts at lunch. I want to know if it's okay to feed him the food from the spoon? The adult food that is. Or should I just leave it around till he starts eating it himself?

[aunali9]

Also he is more likely to eat the food if I place the beans/pulses in a bowl with just a tiny amount of formula as well. Is that harmful? I think he does have water when he wants to.

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

Follow your instinct! I like what you are thinking. Raising a grey, is not a science. You know how your bird will respond. Trust your gut. Nancy

[aunali9]

thanks nancy its reassuring when some one tells me that haha

[aunali9]

oooookay, i think ive solved the mystery, he eats about anything as long as its crunchy! with the exception of bananas, HE LOVES BANANAS. and if its warm he wont even taste it. there is a cage soon to be made for him also. 3x3x4. i think hes trying to lift off but he runs at my desk and crashes into it wings flapping looking morose haha.

[incubus1310]

I read through some of your posts and wanted to give you some advice because I myself raised Ruby from five weeks and on. I read in one of your posts that you've been mixing your baby's formula in with beans. Have you been throwing it out after an hour or two when it starts to smell up? It gets a foul odor after it sits out for a while and it's best to toss it out. With my Ruby, I placed small pellets into a bowl and as she got older, I gradually changed them from parakeet size up to cockatiel until finally she was able to successfully eat the parrot size pellets that I currently have her on now. I also would handfeed her banana. I would smash it between my fingers and she would go CRAZY and gobble it up. I did this with strawberries as well and steamed up some broccoli for her. With her pellets, I didn't have to entice her much to eat them because it just happened naturally. As she got older, and the months went by, I continued to handfeed her but I decreased her feedings. She's already almost a year and a month old and I still give her a nighttime handfeeding before bed and she loves it. Just give pellets and water available at all times and toss out the veggies and fruits after two hours because they spoil.

[incubus1310]

And if your baby won't try what you give him, eat some yourself and show him it tastes good. Might sound crazy but this is how I've gotten Ruby to try sweet potatoes. She hates it!!! But I've smashed it up and I sit down with her at the table. Once she sees me eating it, she'll come and eat it off my plate just because she wants to have what I'm eating. You just gotta trick them sometimes

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

Welcome to new members, with great advice! Nancy

[aunali9]

Yes I have been very careful about how long I leave the perishable items in his food. And with the 40 degree Celsius temperature and humidity in Karachi I've learned to remove it right away and bring fresh food if he isn't inclined to eat it. When ruby was younger, did she perpetually make begging noises? If I'm in sight my parrot makes begging noises unless I distract him with toys, food, cuddling or whatever. He eats a ridiculous amount. Even now if I feed him formula, he won't stop even at 120ml. So I give him more frequent smaller feeds. This is because no matter what people tell me I feel like his crop will burst. My friends macaw eats 150ml before refusing further. And that is a humongous bird in comparison. I am still using a spoon because I'm afraid of over feeding him using the syringe. I'm fairly certain other than this I've got all his health concerns covered and he has grown pretty big. He's the biggest bird I've seen herr in Karachi at the moment.

 

Oh and about when should I really start trying to train him to step up and all? I've been trying for some time to entice him to step up with a sunflower seed for a treat and he does so now if I bring my hand close to him. But its inconsistent and I don't know if I should be expecting more. Or even if its not the training but mere instinct.

Edited July 5, 2014 by aunali9
forgot to add some stuff in my post!