Please Read - I need advice on this Breeder

[PhillyT]

Hi everyone. Just signed up, but have been reading on here since September! What an excellent forum this is and everyone seems friendly.

 

I've been wanting to get an African Grey for a while now and have spent the last 3-4 months researching extensively on the breed, training etc and reading loads on this board. We had a cockatoo when I was young so not a complete newbie, though obviously this would be my first time buying as my own.

 

Anyhoo, after speaking with two breeders, visiting a residential home where their pet was up for sale and not feeling comfortable with any of them for various reasons I came across another ad on PreLoved, let's call him Breeder#3 or 'Bart'.

 

And it's this guy I'd like your advice on if I may.

 

Please forgive the length of the post but I think you'll agree the detail is necessary.

 

 

I had a long string of emails go back and forth with Bart. He has 20-25yrs experience works from home and we eventually had a very long phone call too. During the call he very briefly mentioned he had 3 birds which have all gone now but he had lowered the price "to get rid of them quickly" without ellaborating and the conversation moved on. He sounded very caring, passionate and assured me of his professionalism and experience. We talked at length about certain aspects of ownership. He told me some stories of his own birds, how he got started and into breeding etc etc. He has 2 baby Congos available now which he said would be ready in about 3 weeks, and would cost me £550. No cage included.

 

I really am hoping for some communal advice, thoughts and opinions on Bart and this situation I have described as I am unsure what to do, whether I have been filled with 'Sales Patter' or if my concerns are justified.

 

My problems or issues are these;

 

- Bart has said the two babies will be ready in 3 weeks; at 8-9 weeks old. All I had read said 12 weeks minimum.

- They will need spoon fed twice a day for a couple weeks, then they'll start to move onto regular diet Bart said. (Also said he'll provide the powder to mix to a paste for this spoon feeding, and that he's never had a problem with anyone hand feeding in all his experience & years.)

- When I mentioned everything I'd read suggested the bird should be 12 weeks old, he said he finds it better at 8/9 because the bird is still dependent on you for a while so helps to build the bond etc and makes a difference in that sense because you're helping to raise the bird.

 

After the call I felt completely reassured, he was pleasant, seemed very genuine and approachable, knowledgable and trust worthy. The only niggle I had with him after all these emails & the phone call was that he wasn't overly into the thought of me visiting regularly as a) it's his home and he doesn't like people 'coming and going' as it's unsettling for the birds and eyes nothing to see as all they do is eat and sleep, b) he has a second job and doesn't like to be tied down and c) the birds will be 'ready to take home' in 3 weeks anyway, so it'd be a wasted trip for me to travel over to him only to have to come back in another week or 2 to collect. Though when pressed he did say I could visit once if I really wanted to and did offer to send me new photos weekly or daily if I wanted.

 

I wanted to visit to see which of the toe birds 'chose me', but he says it doesn't always work like that and by taking them @ 8-9 weeks the bond would be strong anyway.

 

So this is all fair and well, so I thought.

 

A few days later he got in touch to say he had 2 interested parties but wanted to give me first refusal on one of the birds. I emailed back to say I was interested but stopped short of sending a deposit (it's a big purchase, decision and I don't want to rush in) so instead asked some additional questions; Are the birds close rung, do they come with a certificate and did he have any contacts for insurance or an idea of approximate cost?

 

His reply was; one of the two was ringed, no papers or certificates though he advised I could make one myself or buy the papers online and he would give me the birth date! As for insurance, he'd never needed it in his 20-25 years experience as all his birds are healthy he said.

 

So immediately I thought the following; Why would you ring one baby and not the other? Weird. Second, no papers? Make your own? A little unprofessional but I guess it made sense. He said they weren't worth much because they're so easily made & faked. I have friends in IT so could easily get something realistic made up if I wanted, but that is besides the point. And the answer on insurance shocked me a little and made me wonder if *I* was being over protective or too worrying/precautious.

 

 

This would have been the end of the post, except yesterday as I was closing down loooads of open parrot related browser tabs I had a selling site open and happened to browse the results. As I did I noticed "Diseased African Greys for sale". I scrolled passed and about to hit the close / red X button I stopped myself out of curiosity and thought; who's going to buy a DISEASED bird!? And at what cost? I also then noticed there was LOADS of these diseased bird listings from lots of different sellers. Over 50% of the listings were for diseased baby African greys! So anyway, I scrolled back up to the initial listing that caught my eye and clicked it...... I was SHOCKED to find this seller was based in the same town as Bart. A little more reading and I discover Bart's phone numbers! IT WAS BARTS LISTING!!! Diseased African Greys for £550! The ad was for 3 birds not 2, but it had been posted about 2-3 days after I started talking with Bart (last week!) and also mentioned the "Reduced Price" of 550 given their health condition (PFBD - poor immune system, malforming beat, nails & feathers - uncurable).

 

After some bad gut feelings with other breeders/sellers I've spoken to in the last 4 weeks and then feeling so happy with Bart I can't tell you how disappointed, angry & confused I feel. His listing mentioned PBFD which I now know all about from googling and obviously don't want to buy a bird that's diseased which could die within a year!

 

How do you know who to trust?

How can you be sure you're not being lied to? Even the papers are easily faked! It's really put me off, and even though I still want a bird I can't afford to risk buying a diseased one.

 

I've thought about having another phone conversation with Bart to ask about disease testing, and any health guarantees on the bird (Do such things exist?) to try and catch him out and mention the listing of his I found, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

 

What do you guys make and think of all this?

The take-home age? The rings & papers? The disease listing!

Should I demand a vet check for clean bill of health? Surely I shouldn't have to cover that!

 

What would you do in this situation?

 

 

Since finding this forum I've read about unweaned birds being illegal to sell, people recommending 14-16 weeks before taking home (all breeders I've spoke to have said 12, except 'Bart' who said 8-9). So much contradictory advice.

 

The only local shop I had a bad experience on the phone with as the owner wash out snappy and just unpleasant to speak to so I never called them back or went to see their birds. There are no other local breeders in my part of England that I've been able to find, so the situation seems difficult.

 

Any advice, help and guidance would be greatly appreciated.

[SRSeedBurners]

Tough one but I'd definitely steer clear of Bart. Too many negatives up the point where you mentioned PFBD and that's a deal breaker alone. He needs to be shutdown.

 

You do NOT want to deal with a diseased bird no matter how tempted and reassured you are that things will be fine. We got a bird from a rescue that came with PDD and it nearly sank us emotionally and soaked up a lot of our cash flow.

 

Do they ship birds via airline in England like they do here in the States? I found a reputable breeder here by scouring forums and I'm very happy I did.

[PhillyT]

Not that I'm aware of. To be honest I've found breeders and even shops that sell parrots -very- hard to come by other than on the south coast. If anyone knows of any uk breeders that are reputable and prepared to courier a bird by all means let me know.

 

Most 'breeders' or sellers rather tend to sell via PreLoved and the likes of those sites so credibility is low at the best of times. You get used to seeing the same 'new' and 'actual' baby pictures after a while.

 

Is there a way to view uk members on this forum and maybe pm or speak to a few of where they got their babies from?

 

What of Bart was to claim the diseased bird listing was for another clutch of birds now sold/gone and these ones are in good health? Still avoid do you all think? By the way here is the site with all those listings of diseased birds. And yes, "Bart's" ad is on that page somewhere too.

 

http://www.birds4saleuk.co.uk/african-grey-parrots-for-sale?page=3

[SRSeedBurners]

There are a few UK regulars here that will chime in I'm sure. I've seen a few threads asking about finding birds in the UK.

 

Even removing the fact that you could lose your money, if you are like a lot of us, once you get a bird you tend to really fall in love with them. Losing them is like losing a child. I may be speaking ignorantly as I've never lost a child but I'm still dealing with the loss of our Jardines parrot and she died in early September. She has a tree and everything outside of our house. It devastated us both. Watching them die is extremely hard to do.

[Luvparrots]

If I were you, I would steer clear on this particular breeder as his stock is tainted. Have you tried contacting an avian veternarian in your area and asking about local breeders. That would be my best guess of finding a reliable avian breeder as you would know then that that particular breeder had an avian veternarian for his parrots. Good luck on finding a healthy grey.

[PhillyT]

Thanks guys...

 

Just out of curiosity, I decided to call a number of those "DISEASED" adverts on the website I linked to above, put the phone down literally 5 mins ago.

 

Out of 3 adverts (none of them Bart), not one of the sellers/breeders knew anything about a diseased bird advert! I confirmed the advert text and mobile numbers to the people I spoke to but they all said they never put diseased into their advert titles and genuinely seemed surprised at the suggestion. One even said he has his tested before sale.

 

Two of them said to me, "who's going to buy a diseased bird?" To which I replied, well that's what I was thinking hence my call.

 

Very strange indeed. Does anyone have any info on this or why all these adverts may be popping up like this? Makes finding an accurate advert / trustworthy breeder even harder!

[danmcq]

Welcome to the forum. What a story. It's really great that you have done your research, knew what type of breeder you were looking for and researched over and over. Your gut is normally the best thing to go by, even when your mind keeps "reasoning" on how much you want it and it may be gone if you don't buy right now. A very wise person I have known for a long time told me one day when I was discussing something I was considering. He said "Dan, the mind can come up with a reason for anything you desire. Be careful of your thoughts and question them." I wish I would have heard that many years early before I made some really bad decisions.

 

Your on the right path.

[PhillyT]

Thanks Dan!

 

In an update to my last post I called a 4th breeder from the website birds4saleuk.co.uk and they also knew nothing of diseased birds - their advert title was "PBFD Diseased African Grey Baby for sale" but they'd never heard of the site. They were at the computer so i gave them the full URL to take a look. And we're surprised to see the ad.

 

I decided to investigate the site a bit more looking for contact details, T&Cs page is a no content link, as was the about us page. The sell with us link however contained content. It seems to me from looking at the site that it could well be bogus with the owner copying other listings and adding "Diseased" almost like a prefix to the adverts, which otherwise read with some credibility.

 

 

So my question now is, for those of you who have read and been following... assuming this website is a fraud and the concerns raised from listing on it are disregarded, does this make Bart my initial breeder worth a shot?

 

Still a few questions to ask him, how come no need to deal with insurances, why is only one of your two birds rung, why no hatch certificate etc.. or do you think I should still avoid?

[danmcq]

I personally would not buy an un-weaned bird. I would also never encourage anyone to do so. It is just for the breeders convenience to get rid of the work sooner and pass it on to the buyer. Taking home an un-weaned bird does not make them anymore likely to be your cuddle muffin than if you get them once properly weaned. If the breeder demands you pick up a bird before being fully weaned you should decline. Also, a grey properly weaned is not really ready until 16 to 18 weeks old. Does this breeder socialize the greys. spend lots of time with them out of cage once they are out of the brooder etc? You really want a grey from a breeder that treats them as their own and would look forward to spending the rest of their lives with. They should not be treated as a hurry up and get them out the door as soon as possible for those $$$ and no more responsibility. In regards the certificate. They are really nothing more than a form many breeders design themselves, put the band number on them and the date of birth and sign. They are not regulated such as dogs or cats that are going to be akc registered for example and a lineage history is maintained. Some people prefer not to have their birds banded for fear of them becoming ensnared on a toy or string for example. Banding is a personal called. My grey was banned before I met him at 6 weeks old. The breeders used them for there on tracking purposes of their greys. Of course, I used it as well to see which grey kept coming over to me and wife wife when we visited multiple days a week as they were growing.

[SRSeedBurners]

Ok, with that new information - I'd still want to see the bird at the breeders location if you have doubts. Plus he's not weaned, that's something I avoided.

 

We've had hell with two of our birds getting the paperwork. Once people get their money, they couldn't give a damn about following up on their promises. I'm still harassing the breeder of our Caique that I want his paperwork along with his DNA papers. It's been a month now and she won't send them. He's not banded. He's a really great little bird and I don't regret buying him one bit, I just really want to know when his birthday is - that's it. Oh and I really want to know that I didn't just give them free money so they could 'tell' me he's a boy. We showed up in a parking lot and purchased him off of Craigslist. So yeah, we took our chances there.

 

Our other bird, we never got paperwork even though I begged for 3 months. Fortunately we had written 6 pre-dated checks. The last two got stopped and they never heard back from us even though they demanded the checks. Karma witches!

 

Our Grey baby came with her paperwork but she came from a very well known and well respected breeder.

 

What I got from it is - bird breeding is still a backyard-home business so don't expect all the proper business etiquette.

[Mistyparrot]

Welcome PhillyT. Thank you so much for bringing your concerns here.

Wow ! What an extraordinary situation. There is something amiss here. I suspect your breeder has enemies but I would not touch any breeder who sells birds so young. I am very suspicious of any breeder who thinks he knows better than Grey parents how to raise baby Greys. Sometimes circumstances dictate that humans need to intervene but genetically Greys have millions of years learning how to do it properly. Humans do it because of the mistaken belief (In my opinion) that the best way to acclimatise a baby Grey to living with humans is to cut their link with other Greys so they grow up accepting living with humans is "normal". This is nonsense. They are parrots and to be the best Grey parrot they can be they need to be brought up by other Grey parrots.

They can still be accepting of human company and at the right age, preferably between one and two or even older they can easily bond with a human companion. They are very intelligent and very curious creatures and in the right circumstances humans can be very attractive to them. They are capable of recognising intelligence in other creatures and they love to be in social and family situations. Genetically they are programmed to leave the family nest after the first year, so bringing up a baby Grey may well result in the young Grey preferring a companion other than the human fosterer. Human parents risk bringing up confused and unstable Greys. A final thing . Grey parents never never will clip a baby Grey wings nor should any human. Grey parrots are flying birds and they need their wings. Their bodies are evolved over millions and millions of years to make them perfect flying animals. To take that away from them is just cruel and could well lead to a weak, confused and frustrated Grey.

Try to find a breeder that allows the Grey parents to participate in the upbringing and who is prepared to keep the young Greys for at least six months. Better still find a Grey to re-home. It may bring some special challenges but it can be so worth while.

 

I wish you good luck in your search PhillyT. Any Grey will be lucky to have you as a companion.

 

Steve n Misty.

[shane]

That does sound scary. But as far as Bart, You could do this... (or at least I would)...

 

Have someone else call Bart asking if he has any discounts on greys that have an abnormalty or disease, etc (and mention it is because you are rescuing them).

If he is shocked and thinks the caller is crazy for wanting a diseased bird.... then you know Bart is "possibly" an OK breeder.

 

just my 2 cents... or my nickel.

[judygram]

It was my understanding that it is illegal in the UK to sell unweaned birds but your gut instinct is right on, avoid this breeder like the plague.

[Talon]

I agree with Judy...move on , don't waste any more time on this so called breeder. You are losing precious time looking for your forever bird.

[PhillyT]

Thanks for your replies guys, they're helping a lot.

 

In regards to the website, I have looked at it and the site is a fake/fraud. No real contact info at all, a home user hosting & domain company and blank T&C and About Us pages. It seems just like a template site to copy people's genuine adverts on to, amending the title in an attempt to put people off the genuine sellers. Which, to be frank worked on me. And even though I know this now I'm still uneasy because it's tainted my thoughts if you will.

 

Re "Bart", and the above mentioned website aside. I don't think that he doesn't care about the birds. He told me stories of people he wouldn't sell to, who's home he had seen or heard how they'd lost/treated a previous bird and declined the sale (amicably & tactfully to spare their feelings), so he does seem genuine in his passion & care. Maybe he just has an alternate opinion on the weaning thing - but I do appreciate its a serious and big issue.

 

If I can get a vet check (and I assume proof of? Certificate or something??) thrown in with the price, and he agrees to ring, give hatch certification and fully wean the bird until 14-16 weeks for me, I'm thinking maybe take it then? Would that be a good deal? With those conditions met, the only downer is that it's been hand reared as opposed to parent/bird reared, right? So he/she may still think they're a human rather than knowing they're not (and knowing they are in fact a bird).

 

Or is that a big deal breaker too?

 

Many thanks again for your replies peeps, you've all been great