The impact of Alex on unrealistic expectations of the new Grey owners

[MKparrot]

Whenever a new or prospective owner of Gray asked me for speaking abilities and other skills of my CAG, I respond with a question - why are you asking? The answer is: I want to know what skills I may expect from my new bird? I again respond with a counter question: Tell me what you expect from your bird? And then in response I get a description of Alex.

Sometimes it is very difficult to explain that it is totally unrealistic to expect that even with a large and regular commitment and love for the bird at home, still their Grey will not became same or largely similar to Alex. Тhey tell me that their birds are excellent specimens of great and controlled descent, hatched to smart parrot-parents, and I tell them that Alex was just an ordinary little parrot randomly bought in a pet shop. Alex was not especially gifted nor selected and was not special "per se' " at the beginning. Alex became famous because Alex was scientific experiment or more preciously very successful experiment (even his name is abbreviation of Avian Learning EXperiment). "Alex the Great" is a result. Alex did not live in the house and spent the day as millions of other pet-parrots. Alex lived in the laboratory and was under 24/7 care, observation and studying of d-r. Pepperberg and a large group of students and dedicated associates. Working with Alex was through confirmed and a lot of new methods of learning and communication. Alex was not trained - Alex was taught. Alex was subject to hundreds and hundreds of repetitions of every single operation he taught, to confirm referent statistical results. Alex was taught to understand the essence of concepts and abstract of things. And because of that Alex is unique - Alex was able to understood and willingly communicate and draw the conclusions and most of all he was showing self-progressive advanced upgrade. His cognitive abilities were remarkable, but the point was/is: those are not exclusively his abilities but cognitive abilities of parrots. What are the scientific benefits out of Alex and d-r Pepperberg's study - it is another story. My point is that new Grey owner MUST know the above otherwise they will be disappointed with their bird just because they will always compare it with Alex. My advice to them is always, that they should decide if they want Alex Grey or just a Grey because every Grey is a beautiful parrot, pet, companion and individual. So if they still expect to have Grey like Alex and if it turns not to be so, it is not Grey's fault but it is only their (owners) fault - every Grey do have an "Alex" potential and abilities but the owner is the one who will have to shape them. Do not ask me if your parrot may became Alex, ask yourself if you can "became" d-r Pepperberg.

Does anybody else share my opinion on this or I am too strict and unfair to the new Grey owners that just want to shape up their own Alex and noting less? Sorry for my broken English, but I hope you got my point.

[Timbersmom]

I think you make a good point. I don't know how many people expect their bird to be like Alex, but I'm sure some do. Not that they are willing to devote that kind of time to it, as you pointed out. I didn't really have any expectations when I brought Timber home. I knew he said some words, and he ran through most of his vocabulary on the way home (didn't speak for about 3 days after we finally got here). Because of all the youtube videos of parrots like Einstein and Alex, I can see why some might have unrealistic expectations.

[JeffNOK]

I agree with your sentiments. Alex was not a companion, but a research project. Alex and Dr Pepperberg have done great good in providing evidence of avian intelligence, but Alex's life was not normal for a companion grey. To be honest, I feel sorry for Alex when I see videos of him. He seems to always be asked to perform the same tasks again and again and generally pleads to "go back". My grey is a talker and very cognitive in her use of language, but that isn't why I love her. If she never spoke a word again, that would be fine. The media attention brought about by the Alex studies has been a mixed blessing. While there is new respect for greys, there are also those who want their egos built up by having a talking bird that can be shown off. If the bird doesn't "perform" as expected, they may end up being ignored or rehomed. African greys should be cherished for who they are, not what they can do.

Edited November 8, 2013 by JeffNOK

[Luvparrots]

Well said and how true. I usually do not participate in threads having to do with Pepperberg because I do not like how Alex was treated. His pleading to go back to his cage just breaks my heart. I have absolutely no respect for Irene Pepperberg.

Edited November 8, 2013 by luvparrots

[BaileysPapa]

Everything said is very true. As a parrot rescuer, and guardian, myself, I am often asked these same things, and explain the same answers. I, too, have always felt sorry for Alex. That poor bird never knew the joys of being a pet. Although, Irene did love him, but, more for what he did, than for who he was. I often felt that the stress of his day to day life is what shortened his life. He was an amazing creature.

[JeffNOK]

Well said and how true. I usually do not participate in threads having to do with Pepperberg because I do like how Alex was treated. His pleading to go back to his cage just breaks my heart. I have absolutely no respect for Irene Pepperberg.

 

You know, with all the acclaim concerning Alex and Pepperberg, I thought I was the only one who walked away feeling sad more than inspired. I much prefer the study done with Cosmo (Betty Jean Craig's Grey) that studied the social use of language in greys with a loved companion bird. Cosmo was simply studied as she lived life--without rigorous testing or demands to respond in certain ways. As much was learned about greys in that study as in the one with Alex.

 

http://www.world-science.net/exclusives/110601_parrot.htm

[VStar Mama]

Has anyone who expressed an opinion regarding the life of Alex with Dr. Pepperburg ever read either "The Alex Studies" or "Alex and Me"?

You've seen a few videos of Alex asking to "go back" and decide that she and her lab student were poor caretakers? Have you watched every possible minute and hour of tape that exists on Alex's experiments? The portrait of Alex in the biography "Alex and Me" doesn't imply an mentally abused parrot. If anything, it alludes to the evolution of Alex the frightened baby gray into Alex commander of everyone around him (apparently nicknamed Mr. A by the students). He had toys, was around people constantly, and was always being interacted with. I'd wager that 90% of companion parrots don't get anything close to the daily amount of attention that Alex got. Stories were told about Alex running new students ragged as he ran through his list of demands that his caretakers fulfill. One of the things that Alex learned was that he had command of his environment. If he really didn't want to work, then he came up with some pretty creative ways to not work.

 

Like being asked "what color" or "what matter" and giving the trainer every possible answer EXCEPT the right one (which is a statistical improbability). In an emotional sense, he was not much different from any kindergarten or first grader asked to do a page of 100 math problems.

 

Was it Alex's plucked state that got you riled up? I've seen it stated HERE that some birds are chronic pluckers and nothing is going to change that. As for his life span, at 31, Alex was only 9 years younger than the average lifespan for companion grey parrots. I know that everyone falls back to the 60-70 year number, but truth is, that in human homes, these birds are averaging half of their wild lifespan. Alex's bout with Aspergillius may also have contributed to his shortened life span. Dr Pepperburg had to resort to surgery in order to save his life. Maybe that also contributed to his shortened life span. Should we call her a bad pet owner for that too? Irene ensured that Alex was always cared for first. When money got tight, she is the one who ate tofu and ramen while Alex was eating fresh organic veggies. I've seen people more willing to give up their pets than their expensive cell phone plans or cigarette habits.

 

In order to achieve statistical significance, he had to go through hundreds of repetitions. This was a scientific requirement in order to achieve validity and reliability. It doesn't matter how many anecdotes Grey owners have about the cleverness of their birds; anecdotes are NOT acceptable evidence regardless of how we feel about our companions. Pepperburg was setting out to PROVE what parrots owners know.

 

I don't know what, if any, kind of scientific backgrounds everyone has on this site. As a psychology student I completely understand the need for statistical significance, and the need for Irene to treat Alex like a colleague instead of like a pet. She had to remain objective for the sake of science. But no one can work closely with another for 30 years, through thick and thin, continually fight for funding, professional respect, space to work, overcoming obstacles, and still produce credible scientific evidence that Grey parrots are every bit as smart and some of the same cognitive capabilities as humans and NOT FORM AN EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT. Short of her being without emotional capabilities (i.e. sociopath, psychopath etc) it doesn't happen. How many of you on this site have success with your parrots trying to force them to do things they don't want to do? If Alex was a put upon as you all want to see him, then it would be a complete non-issue because Dr. Pepperburg would never have gotten this far. Her experiment would have failed years and years ago and instead of being a household name, Alex wouldn't exist as a part of groundbreaking scientific history.

Edited November 8, 2013 by VStar Mama

[Luvparrots]

I have read a book about a parrot named Cosmo, Jeff, although I don't think its the same parrot. I'll have to drag out the book. I love to read books about parrots and read all that I find or hear about.

Edited November 8, 2013 by luvparrots

[MKparrot]

My point was just that new Grey owners are usually making mistake when having Alex as a roll model for their Grey. It is a fact that Alex was not under ordinary pet-like-life-regime. Alex was research project and experiment and Alex was taught and studied. I personally do not feel that Alex was unhappy and abused and I am fascinated with his achievements and dr. Pepperberg's study is a real breakthrough in the avian studies and that is a fact. It is another theme - what are the benefits of her research with Alex and other parrots but was not the initial point of my post.

I was just pointing the fact that people are expecting that every Grey should turn into Alex and if not so than they are dissapointed.

[SRSeedBurners]

As for his life span, at 31, Alex was only 9 years younger than the average lifespan for companion grey parrots. I know that everyone falls back to the 60-70 year number, but truth is, that in human homes, these birds are averaging half of their wild lifespan.

 

 

This statement sets off my violation of common sense alarms - so I went looking.

 

From the University of Michigan

 

Range of lifespan in captivity: 40-60 years

Average lifespan in captivity: 45 years

Average lifespan in the wild: 22.7

 

 

In general, it's harder to survive in the wild for most animals, although there are lots of exceptions but not many for prey animals. Just ask your neighborhood rabbit who averages in the months in the wild and in the years in captivity.

 

 

As for the Alex/Dr. Pepperberg debate - I have no clue.

[Inara]

My thoughts:

 

Alex -- Alex's name was originated from Avian Learning Experiment. Alex was a laboratory specimen who in order to be studied was kept in an unrealistic environment when compared to companion birds. It was apparent that he was bored with the constant repetition, Dr. Pepperberg herself was aware of this, but for reproducible results this was considered necessary. In order to garner and keep funding and positions at various Universities, Pepperberg was obliged to trot Alex out to do and re-do and re-do his activities so that she could keep a roof over his and her head while continuing this important study, albeit at the time with an N of 1. It is apparent that Alex was held in much esteem and affection by the grad students who worked with him, and as well as Dr. Pepperberg herself. I also agree, due to his special circumstances, he likely received more daily stimulation than most companion birds -- however, the form of it was tedious.

 

Companion greys -- I agree that many people see a specimen like Alex and are inspired to want to "own" one for her/himself, without doing any research, without reading and self education first, and without giving serious thought to a lifetime of commitment. By age 10 many parrots have been in 7-8 different homes, once the novelty wears off.

 

I don't think anyone here believes that Dr. Pepperberg was neglectful of Alex, but their empathy for the working conditions of Alex speaks well for all of us who keep a watchful eye on the treatment of laboratory animals. Alex is legendary and has taken on a mythical status that has and does, I believe, contribute to the pet trade in CAGs and the subsequent disappointment and abandonment of many birds. Is it the fault of Dr. Pepperberg? No. The same happens after major dog shows, or cute commercials on TV, etc. Animals are impulsively bought and are "trendy," then later are neglected, rehomed, rescued, surrendered or abandoned.

 

We as stewards of our companion birds, and our Greys especially, need to accept responsibility for continuing to educate people about parrots, their plight throughout the world, and the shameful conditions under which many are kept and the lack of legislation about humane treatment in pet stores, breeding facilities, and in experimental settings.

 

OK - -off my cracker box now.

 

Inara's Human

 

EDIT: Just making clear that I do not think that Alex was kept under inhumane nor neglectful conditions

Edited November 8, 2013 by Inara

[danmcq]

Everyone has views and opinions on Alex. There is no "One" correct view in my opinion. I have read all of Irene's books, listened to her media interviews, watched the videos and corresponded directly with her several times. I have purchased and read in addition to Irene's books, Conversations with Cosmo. In addition I have followed Virginia Bush on her forum that combines her many years as an English as a Second Language teacher, her 11+ years of living with her African Grey Chaucer, with the experiences of members of Avian Cognition Forum, the Yahoo group she founded and moderates, to form a unique approach to understanding the development of the use of human language by companion parrots. In this class she will talk about the ability of parrots to learn and use human language to communicate meaning fully

 

I have always had several emotional feelings on Alex and his laboratory environment such as awe inspired, happy, sad etc. However, as said a lab environ is a whole different world and needed to be a controlled environment with strict adherence to correct documenting and recording "Proof" of the intellectual abilities Alex possessed.

 

I loved his knowledge, wit and humor. As anyone though, he would get bored and maybe even feel ill with his health issues and thus the "wanna go back". Thats what would break my heart. It should have been respected at least sometimes to give him a break and just chill. This topic of whether it was cruel or not could be debated until hell freezes over. I personally do not think it was cruel and I know Alex was treated well, loved by Irene, his trainers and helpers. The results from this study "Rocked" the scientific community with proof of intellengce, understanding of human language and a host of mental skills rivaling that of a human 6 year old all wrapped up in a 1lb African Grey Parrot with a brain the size of a Walnut named Alex. It was undeniable proof and I believe we as grey owners especially should be applauding Dr. Irene Pepperberg and Alex for their unrelenting work and sacrifice to produce the scientific documentation that will carry on through out history.

Edited November 8, 2013 by danmcq

[VStar Mama]

Great research! Love it!

As a student, for me, it is also necessary to dig into the references to evaluate the sources of information. Not all data is created equal. In school, I am typically limited to peer-reviewed sources of information for assignments. This has made it necessary for me to be discerning about what I use in my research projects Although you pulled this data from the University of Michigan Museum of Zoology program, and their articles was referenced and cited, I went to check the references used to gather the information.

 

Of the sources listed where the captivity and lifespan information was provided, 2 were web links that were no longer in service, two were books and it will take me some time to get my hands on them to check the veracity of the data and the remaining articles were from people studying captive Greys. I don't doubt that those studies pulled information from other African Grey studies but without those references to check out the information sources I can't corroborate what the University has on their website and I am not going to shift my position until I have better data. I'll search my University database for more information.

 

Either way using your numbers, at 31, Alex was still 9 years younger than the low range of captivity lifespan and 9 years over wild life span. I have only heard about people with parrots over 30 in a few instances in this forum. One of the posters from Birdtricks (and I know how many people feel about that organization, but they are still bird owners) has a Galah that is 64. Growing up, I knew a women who inherited a parrot from a relative that was definitely over 30 but true age unknown. And I have a friend in Albuquerque who has a parrot that is 42 (my birdfriend Crackers. He's not very monogamous though as he has a thing for blond women....any blond woman apparently). My point is that there should be many more 22+ year old birds (based off of the pet ownership statistics from 1991). I see more of them in rescues and sanctuaries than I see them in people's homes.

 

 

By the way, I found a study about Cosmo, if anyone wants a PDF of it please message me an email address. The file is too big to attach to this message.

[Inara]

My point is that there should be many more 22+ year old birds (based off of the pet ownership statistics from 1991). I see more of them in rescues and sanctuaries than I see them in people's homes.

 

While correlation doesn't mean causation, the longevity in rescues and sanctuaries as opposed to in private homes that you are seeing could simply be speaking to the fact that so many parrots are abandoned and surrendered, and had they stayed in their home of origin perhaps would have also reached 22+ years. Or, the presence of other confounding variables like out gassing of materials in modern homes, lack of good nutrition (i.e., feeding lots of human junk food and pesticide laden foods), lack of veterinary care, improper breeding practices, etc., and the stressors of being moved from home to home for creatures who are flock oriented and that bond heavily.

 

I just typed this without taking a look at any studies first, so buyer beware

 

I'll pm you my email addy, I'd be interested in reading the Cosmo study.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Inara

[JeffNOK]

I hope my comment that I felt sorry for Alex didn't give the impression that I thought he was abused or that Dr. Pepperberg was bad. I understand the unique circumstances that he found himself in and would like to believe he was loved by those who worked with him.

[VStar Mama]

I do realize that there are many variables that could be contributing to the lack of age 22+ companion parrots in homes; and I do believe that if this is the case, then the sample captive parrot populations used to get an average captive lifespan of 40-60 years is also skewed as it is not reflecting the actual average lifespan of the home-based captive parrot population. I haven't been able to dig up information on how the captive age estimate was reached, but if the parrot population that was studied was conducted primarily on zoo, rescue, and sanctuary populations then the numbers aren't reflective of pet population demographics. What they are reflective of is the average lifespan of institutional parrots.

 

As you stated, one of the primary differences between a home parrot and an institutional parrot is the degree and application of human knowledge. The humans responsible for institutional parrot care are more likely to be educated and up-to-date on appropriate diet requirements and environmental safety for the animals.

 

Now that I've had some time to look over the Cosmo study I found, I noticed that Dr. Pepperburg's work was heavily referenced and cited. Dr. Pepperburg broke the ground for researchers taking the home-companion study track to be taken seriously. After reading a (I suspect) heavily summarized rendition of Pepperburg's struggle to gain professional credibility for her research, I believe that the Cosmo research would probably never have been published.

 

It leaves me wondering however, I see many people counting the identifiable words that their parrots use; to what extent would a parrots vocabulary be expanded if we considered all meaningful sounds that they use? (The Cosmo study evaluated the parrot's use of units; not just language) Not just words, but the microwave beeps, car alarms, other-species mimicry, the (wonderful) water gurgling sounds, random utterances, etcetera. The forum thread about how the parrot refers to the parront is an example. If I recall right (without going back to look at the thread) there is a parrot that uses "Rom" for a human name, and another who uses "Woooo". While neither of these utterances qualifies as a unit of language ( as would Mom, servant, waiter, or Dad), I think both of them would qualify as use of speech as the terms are used purposely and in a meaningful manner. So, if we started counting all parrot vocal utterances, used meaningfully, as forms of speech, how truly communicative are parrots?

[danmcq]

So, if we started counting all parrot vocal utterances, used meaningfully, as forms of speech, how truly communicative are parrots?

 

Good thoughts and comments. In my opinion, parrots are as communicative as Humans. When one truly listens not just to the human words spoken, but sounds as well. They will soon realize those sounds from whistles to dinks all are used to reflect a thought about whats happening or not happening. My Grey uses a DINK sound that clearly means the response he received was NOT what he wanted to hear. Has also has a whistle type sound that truly sounds pathetic and instantly brings the thought to mind that it is a very sorrowful sound. He uses it when he hears "We have to go to xxxx". Other times he will just say "See ya later". If he wants a drink of water, he will either say "Drink of water" or make the water dripping sound. They are constantly communicating both in Human and Parrotese. We should all be listening carefully if we wish to truly appreciate just how communicative they are.

[birdhouse]

Maybe a couple of things to consider when trying to judge the way the ALEX study birds live(d). Parrots cannot be made to do anything they don't want to do. They can't be bribed, bullied or beaten into any activity they seriously object to doing. Also, if it suits them to do something in the moment, they will. But if they don't like it, they may never do it again for any reason.

 

A Grey who continues to live in a bad environment will, in a relatively short time, show extremely obvious signs of emotional instability. Albeit withdrawal, aggression, fear, etc. I just can't think Alex, let alone the other Greys could have continued to work *with* this study group & have such intellectual development which was so clearly proven & documented.

 

Alex was the center of his universe. Did he live in a perfect world? Define perfect. How many of us have had our greys say they don't want us to cage them & go to work for 9 or so hours? Does it pull the heartstrings when they do it? How does the prefect world scenario measure up for the fids in isolation 40-50+ hrs/wk purely for the joy gotten from living w/them?

 

Alex had more attention & opportunity for growth than *any* of our birds will ever have, no matter how much love or how great a home we can provide. But Alex was a working bird. He lived in a world that was carefully created to prove scientifically that egocentric humans are not the only creatures who can think, feel & communicate on a very sophisticated level.

 

If any of the key players on the ALEX team even looked like they could emotionally contaminate the results, the entire enterprise would have been worthless. Everything that was learned from 35 yrs of ground breaking evidence would have been washed down the drain by an even bigger group of behavioral scientists than already dismiss it.

 

Dr Pepperberg started this experiment in 1975. At that time, the scientific method for animal behavior studies outlined strict rules about starving subjects to 80% of their body weight to make them more responsive & working in an isolation box to keep them from accidentally responding to any undesired stimuli.

 

Today, Betty Jean Craige's methods may be more acceptable to the average person. But she didn't set out to shatter hallowed ground in a scientific community from the Dark Ages. Dr Pepperberg's ideas & methods were astoundingly ahead of her time. And the results were even more astounding than even the relatively new found information about the great apes that was starting to emerge.

 

There will always be people who continue to deny the obvious when it suits them. Just like people will continue to twist the facts to justify their actions, like getting a bird so it can be 'just like Alex'. There is unfortunately no cure for those sad facts of human nature. But in the long run, I really feel like much more good than bad has come from the things Alex taught us.

Edited November 9, 2013 by birdhouse

[Inara]

Good thoughts and comments. In my opinion, parrots are as communicative as Humans. When one truly listens not just to the human words spoken, but sounds as well. They will soon realize those sounds from whistles to dinks all are used to reflect a thought about whats happening or not happening. My Grey uses a DINK sound that clearly means the response he received was NOT what he wanted to hear. Has also has a whistle type sound that truly sounds pathetic and instantly brings the thought to mind that it is a very sorrowful sound. He uses it when he hears "We have to go to xxxx". Other times he will just say "See ya later". If he wants a drink of water, he will either say "Drink of water" or make the water dripping sound. They are constantly communicating both in Human and Parrotese. We should all be listening carefully if we wish to truly appreciate just how communicative they are.

 

Agree. Inara has been trying to teach me as we are learning some bi-directional communication. She has two sounds that she repeats that are distinctly "hers." When we are chatting back and forth she will make them. She was very pleased when I was able to mimic one. The other, I just tell her, "I don't know how." She then would make the sound that I could make, and would/will wait. I repeat that sound. She then will whistle and wait. I will repeat the whistle. She then makes the other sound and waits. I tell her, "I don't know how." She goes through the process again. I finally just started saying, "Quack," when she makes the 2nd sound. Naturally, now she enjoys "quacking." My point being, that she is consciously attempting to teach me as I am with her. I have no doubt about that.

 

To bring this back on topic to Alex, it is difficult and unreliable enough with humans to use intelligence measurements/metrics cross culturally. When we attempt to measure non-human species' intelligence using human standards, we can only approximate at best isolated bits and pieces. This allows us, as Dr. Pepperberg and others have shown, to understand that non-human species are far more "intelligent" than were considered for centuries, thus leading to better treatment, conservation of, and empathy for non-human species.

 

What I personally find interesting is that the emotional centers of parrot brains are more developed than those sectors in our human brains. Now that would be an interesting area for further research.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Inara

[Talon]

I have always kept quiet when it comes to threads regarding Alex and Dr. Pepperburg, and any birds she uses for research. I feel very much like Luvparrots. My thoughts are that Alex was stressed out from all the expectations that were made towards him. He was not left alone to be just bird....he plucked and for a reason just like Griffen is doing. I feel it is waytoo much stress for them, they are pushed to get things right. Yes, they loved him, took care of him etc. But they used him and it took a huge toll on him and it is on Griffen now. Unlike us bird owners here on this forum, we put our birds first, us second. Dr. Pepperburg was selfish and used Alex for her own selfish reasons, and for what? Did it change anything? It only confirmed what us bird owners already know, they are SMART! they have feelings and comprehension And understanding. I could go on and on, but I won't. I know many will disagree with me, I dont care . I won't say another word about it. There is nothing anyone can say to change my feelings on Alex. He deserved better than an existence of being a lab parrot .

[Dave007]

This statement sets off my violation of common sense alarms - so I went looking.

 

From the University of Michigan

 

Range of lifespan in captivity: 40-60 years

Average lifespan in captivity: 45 years

Average lifespan in the wild: 22.7

 

 

In general, it's harder to survive in the wild for most animals, although there are lots of exceptions but not many for prey animals. Just ask your neighborhood rabbit who averages in the months in the wild and in the years in captivity.

 

 

As for the Alex/Dr. Pepperberg debate - I have no clue.

 

Concerning age, those figures in your post were already spoken about here a few times on this forum. thru the years. Actually, I'm the one that spoke about them and people didn't wanna believe me. That's because I wasn't a scientist or specialist stuying in fancy schools.They became indignant. They insisted that only info that was read in books was the correct info. Somestimes reading can be very misleading. That's been proven over and over and over again.

I didn't need any official literature to come to that conclusion.. Average spans of much animal life in the wild can be easily found and I'm into doing just that---checking out and studying animal life and not just birds and not just their ages and I've been doing it a long time.

I've spoken about bird talking--learning how to talk in their language. People don't have the time or talent to do it. They became indignant. To many people.The spoken human word is what remains supreme. That's a lot of BS.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Dave007

[Mistyparrot]

When Misty first came to live with me I tried the usual nonsense of teaching him names of foods and fruits. I had been impressed by Dr Irene Pepperberg teaching Alex but I could not use her method of Model Rival as it was just me. Misty soon got good at identifying all kinds of fruit. I was particularly impressed with him learning "Pomegranate". But then after a while he decided not to cooperate. From that point all fruit became "Orange" and that was it. I came to the conclusion that my constant pestering him to name fruits seemed to him that I was teasing him. I realised that we were in a two way learning process and while he had made great efforts to humour me I also had to learn from him. I think we have both found this much more rewarding. My learning his wants and intentions meant that often he would use my words in novel ways. I was still able to get his meaning and he responded to my acceptance of his use of words and sounds by deepening our friendship. Of course he is a parrot not a little human or a child or a baby but he is a person. Maybe not in the exact dictionary sense but for me it fits. I don't often try to teach him English now. Instead he listens and if he thinks a word or phrase or sound fits his need to express himself to me then he will adopt or adapt. I think this is so much more interesting and revealing than making him learn correct English.

I thingk it is important to understand that our Greys very much want to communicate with us even if our environment is totally alien to their genetic expectation. They are not pets like pet rabbits or cats or dogs. There is an evolutionary gulf between us that is even greater and yet their ability to respect us as humans and be our friends tells us how precious all animal life is and we forget that at our peril. We share our planet. It is not just for us alone.

I believe that Dr Pepperberg's scientific work, just like Dr Leakys work with the apes has made an enormous contribution to our understanding of non human intelligence. We should not try to emulate Dr Pepperberg. We just need to respect and value our parrots for what they are.

 

As Dave pointed out further on I should have been referring to Dr Jane Goodall. I blame Mistyparrot for constantly trying to distract me!

 

Steve n Misty

Edited November 9, 2013 by Mistyparrot

[JeffNOK]

I like Steve's thinking about Misty being a "person". Personhood seems to fit--without anthropomorphizing. As far as communication, Gracie uses English to communicate many things, but her most effective way to tell me to "come here" is an annoying cough. Last winter I had a cold with this very piercing cough. She picked it up perfectly. When I first leave the room to do something she will begin with English, "Gracie want Daddy" or "Daddy's here." But if I don't come back quickly enough, she starts to "cough". It's gets louder and more obnoxious until I come back. That cough speaks volumes. It's her version of "Daddy, get your A$$ back in here, NOW!". She also says goodbye sometimes by making the sound of my door squeaking as it closes. It isn't random. She never makes that sound except when I am leaving. I think that communicates just as well or better than when she actually says "Bye Bye."

[Dave007]

Wanna know who the person was who really dealt with wild animals was?? Jane Goodall. She simply lived with loads of chimps and allowed the chimps to do all the work. She recorded them. They made the decisions. They accepted her for certain things and didn't accept her for other things. They made her a part of their lives, not the other way around. They weren't trained to do anything. It was their ways of life that taught people. The chimps taught us how and sweet they were and how violent they were. She simply tried to record it. She recorded every aspect. It wasn't her that fed them bananas. It was the other way around. She didn't wanna touch them--they wanted to touch her. They made it clear when she should stay away such as when they went on visious raiding hunts. Manybe some of you are a bit to young to remember her but she was a true scholar. Many many years later, she visited that vast area and some of the chimps that were still alive actually remembered her. They wanted to see her. They made that perfectly clear.

For those who never heard of her, just look up her name be ready for a great experience. There's even videos of her years with them. She was the person who sparked my interest in wild animals. She'll always have a special place in my heart. A very, very, very true pioneer. A true person who sacrificed for the sake of giving us information.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Dave007

[SRSeedBurners]

I like Steve's thinking about Misty being a "person". Personhood seems to fit--without anthropomorphizing. As far as communication, Gracie uses English to communicate many things, but her most effective way to tell me to "come here" is an annoying cough. Last winter I had a cold with this very piercing cough. She picked it up perfectly. When I first leave the room to do something she will begin with English, "Gracie want Daddy" or "Daddy's here." But if I don't come back quickly enough, she starts to "cough". It's gets louder and more obnoxious until I come back. That cough speaks volumes. It's her version of "Daddy, get your A$$ back in here, NOW!". She also says goodbye sometimes by making the sound of my door squeaking as it closes. It isn't random. She never makes that sound except when I am leaving. I think that communicates just as well or better than when she actually says "Bye Bye."

 

Haa, you get called with an annoying cough, I get called with a dog whistle and a "Coommme onnnn" and if I don't respond I get a loud angry raspy squawk. You don't have to be an African Grey to know what that means. I think it's similar to your "get your A$$ back here - NOW!" Hilarious.