Bitter apple???

[TinyTimneh]

all right, i'm sorry because i kno that this topic has been dealt with already probably somewhere in the forums but my pc is refusing to cooperate with the search forum option and i need a quick reply to this.

 

jacko is a plucker. he's been one for at least as long as i've had him, probably more (2 yrs+). of course the standard advice with a bird like him is distract him, bathe him frequently and teach him other things to do.

okay, well, been there done that. he is now bathed daily (with aloe vera in the water), get 3 hrs of out of cae attention from me, and has currently 7 toys in his cage which are a variety of puzzle/chewable/noise/foraging toys and loves to play. i've discovered certain triggers of it (his cage being covered) and fixed it all. BUT despite all this he still plucks. a vet visit will be as soon as i can manage it. but then there is dealing with the underlying habit which is my biggest obstacle. he loves to play but also likes to pluck and will interrupt his playing to go and have a good plucking session and then go back to playing. rattling a newspaper etc to distract him just makes him pluck harder (i don't give any eye/vocal etc/ contact when i do it either). so my question is using this 'bitter apple' spray available for birds. can i use it? should i use it? everything else has not succeeded and i need to break his habit. i've heard mixed reviews about this spray with some saying try it and others saying it's worthless and may actually increase the plucking. also, how often and when should i apply it? should i wash him off every night and apply a fresh coat after his morning bath or what? thanx

[Dave007]

Bitter apple is normally used to put on items that birds chew. It's suppose to deter them from chewing because of it's bad taste. Rarely does it work well. Bitter apple is a chemical. My opinion is that it shouldn't be sprayed on sensitive, irritated skin that might have some open pores.

Aloe Vera in the water? Gel or juice?

Gel is used for spot application. It soothes and moisturises that area.

Aloe Juice is applied straight to the body,usually with a sprayer/mister. The body should be soaked with it and the bird should be allowed to stay soaked to the skin until the bird is dry. It shouldn't be mixed with water especially on a plucker or chewer. He might have very dry skin and if a bird isn't soaked down to the skin, the bath really won't help. That applies to any liquid that's used. many feathers on a grey are water proof and fluid will only roll off of them. Soaking him down with Juice everyday can't hurt and might actually help any dryness that might be there.

I think that getting to that vet should be done as quickly as possible because TAGs aren't generally known as pluckers.

[judygram]

If Dave gives you information you can take it for the truth, he knows his stuff and we rely on him for lots of advice and he does not disappoint here either. Thanks Dave for another fine post.

[spookyhurst]

Interesting. My dog does the equivalent of a bird plucking, he licks and chews on himself until the skin is bruised and broken and oozy. It's like an obsession. My mom just started to spray bitter apple on his fur yesterday in hopes of getting him to stop. I better tell her to stop. Incidentally, we tried putting aloe vera juice and gel on him, but he just licks it off :pinch:.

[BMustee]

I have seen products that are like bitter apple that do not contain harmful chemicals...I think it was in my Bird Cages 4 Less catalog. I wouldn't use a product made to go on a table leg on the animal itself because the stuff in it could harm it. You should first take your TAG to the vet for a full work up and start giving Aloe Juice baths without water added. Don't ever give any attention to your bird when he is plucking...you said he plucks more when you try to distract him so it might be he is doing it for attention. I would leave the room when he starts doing it to be sure he knows he won't get anything from you when he plucks.

[danmcq]

I agree with all other comments here.

 

Do not spray bitter apple on your Grey or any other animal for that matter. It is made to spray on objects, not pets.

 

It may be hard to determine, but you need to figure out "Why" he is plucking....pin feathers there, an irritated patch of skin, wants attention etc.

 

Try Aloe Juice mists as DrSpock has recommended. :-)

[TinyTimneh]

okay, wait let me elaborate. i don't mean bitter apple, i would never think of putting the actual trademarked 'bitter apple' stuff on a bird, i know it is harmful.

however, i kno that if i was dilligent and was able to supervise him all day i could distract him and break his habit eventually. But, i'm out of the house for 8 hrs a day and in which time he plucks to his heart's content.

The product i was considering is sold under 'better bitters', is alcohol-free and formulated for birds.

Also, the avian vets in my region are extremely few, i think there is only two in the whole province that i know of. also, i don't drive and obviously i'm not about to clamber onto the bus and subway with the birds, so will a regular vet do?

[TinyTimneh]

Oops, sorry MrSpock, forgot to answer your question. i use the gel and dilute it with water because that's all i can find right now (i'm still looking though). my local pet shop has a few 'bird bath' formulas available, would these work? also, i know that because i'm not soaking him down to the skin the aloe is pretty useless, but it's hard. although he will sit and let the water fall on him he doesn't flap his wings or anything so the water doesn't get underneath his wings etc. usually altho rarely he will flap around Amazon-style and have a bath, sunlight seems to be a trigger. i've tried a dish but he isn't willing. i tried once to actually lift his wings and such to get water underneath there but it damages our bond so i don't do it. any ideas?

[Dave007]

Bathing/Spraying------most greys don't like bathing or spraying but they do need to get it done, especially since they have dander(white dust that they always throw off)or have dry skin or pluck. Here is a suggestion....

1-- use colder water. They like that colder temperature better than tepid water.

2-- when you're spraying him, try to get as close as possible with the sprayer, and don't spray his face. Many parrots don't like getting misted from a distance. It's much more annoying to them than when the sprayer is closer.

3-- when you do get closer only use 1/2 squirts. The shock of the water isn't as great as it is from a distance.

4-- some parrots won't open their wings when you're spray him so when you're using the sprayer, turn the knob so that the water comes out it would from a water pistol. With him facing you,squirt the water between the wing and his body. The water works it's way in and he will spread it around.

5-- a grey's feathers are waterproof and it sometimes looks like the water is just rolling off which it is. You should keep spraying the outer wings because the dander is laying on them. Enough wetness will soak the dander and when he shakes off the water, the dander will get soaked and fall down to bottom of the cage.

6-- never towel dry or hair dry hiom after a bath or spray. The longer he stays wet, the more he benefits from the bath/spray.

7-- the best way to get a grey used to spraying is constant repitition combined with 1/2 squirts. Do it once a day if you can. Expect squawks, growls and screeching but whether you know it or not, a grey likes the feeling it gets after getting a bath/spray

 

Believe it or not, your problems and situations are not as complex as you think. Mainly, it all has to do with time plus not putting time limits on anything you want to accomplish.

 

Stop using the gel/water mix. It's useless. The gel dissapates instantly.

 

The method above can also be used when using Aloe Juice<br><br>Post edited by: MrSpock, at: 2007/10/25 01:01

[BMustee]

Everyone thought you were asking about the "bitter Apple" so that’s why we have all answered accordingly. I have not heard about a lot of success with the "bird friendly" spray products and I wouldn't use them if I had a plucker. The first thing you need to do is take your TAG to the avian vet. A vet trained for dogs and cats have no clue what they are doing with exotic pets and birds so they should not be considered as an option for a complex problem like yours. Do you have any feather toys in the cage? I have heard that pluckers will switch to "plucking" and preening the toys instead of themselves. The Aloe Juice can be found at many Wal-Mart’s pharmacy department. If you don't have any stores that carry it there are plenty of places online to buy it as well. Also, I don't think that you being gone for 8 hours a day makes any difference in the plucking. You said he will pluck when you are there so it's not a "detachment" issue, plus a distraction is only just that, it's not a fix. Try putting the feather toys in the cage, aloe juice baths, and get him to an avian vet as soon as you can get him to one.

[Dave007]

I disagree about putting any aloe baths in a cage.

1--all birds are diffent so a person doesn't really know whether a bird will use it at all or just use it once in a great while.

2--A person doesn't know whether a bird is gonna use it for putting food into it.

3--sometimes a bird will take a dump in it and that applies to water bowl too. Either fluid will get ruined.

4--A grey has an extreme amount of dander and just like in water bowls, lots of dander will go into any bowl that has fluid in it. Just like water, a bird might decide to drink it even though it's dusty.

5--if a person really wants to judge whether aloe is helping any problem, it should be applied by a person directly and consistantly to the bird so a more accurate judgement can be made as to it's benefits for the bird. The person will know for sure since they're the ones that put it on.

[BMustee]

I didn't mean put the Aloe bath in the cage...just the feather toy.

[TinyTimneh]

okay, thanx guys. i guess i'll just have to make the pilgrimage downtown (i have mobility issues and don't drive as well). by the way, can you take birds on a bus? sorry lol, i wasn't trying to make the problems sound all complex and dramatic, i've just been very frustrated lately, i can hear the distinct noise his beak makes when he plucks and is gnawing off feathers. i usually leave the room when he plucks so that way i can't hear it and get frustrated and he can't feed off the energy.

if the plucking is an established habit and a vice of his, how can i break it?

[TinyTimneh]

well MrSpock, tried what you said and success, the water gets right in there! Much thanx to you! now, any tips for getting water down into the skin and feathers on the back/neck/shoulder area? that's his biggest problem.

[Dave007]

The areas to be most concerned about when using aloe are the areas you just had success with. Those areas aren't water proof. The feathers you're having difficulty with on the back and shoulder areas are water proof and any fluid will just run off the feathers taking with it any surface dander that happens to be there.. The feathers on the head are also water proof.On the back of the head, you can try squirting the neck area in reverse. You stand bhind his neck/head. His neck feathers will stand out and any fluid will get in. Use all the same methods even when using water. Good luck and so far, good job.

[TinyTimneh]

well, mr. spock, in theory i know you're absolutely right buuut the question is now, can i move faster than the grey lol... he won't let me stand behind him unless he's facing me...

[judygram]

Will he allow you to lift up the feathers on his neck and back so you can get to the skin better, that is what I would suggest.

 

As for moving faster than your grey, only you can answer that, but they can move about very quickly can't they.