Bigwick70 Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Hello... I was recently given an African gray male, age unknown, and hes very aggressive. I got on the web and tried following the step up command and am seriously trying to remain patient with him but he feels he needs to bite blood out of everything near his cage... I literally have sores all over both hands and fingers from trying to befriend him... So far I tried blowing in his face, to gently flicking his beak (both witch make him extremely angry), to squirting water in his face from a bottle. This seems to help the best but after a bit, hes back to trying to nip my fingers off...Doing the step up thing is totally out of the question! PLEASE HELP, because I truly want to give him a chance... Oh and hes better if I remove him from his cage (somewhat), but not totally...I really feel bad too seeing him there soaked with water. I feel hes only doing something natural although I read this is not normal behavior...He has been on someone carport, ignored for some time too and I think this is contributing to his behavior... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovethatgrey Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Please check out the links posted on this thread http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?199980-how-to-gain-trust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judygram Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 So far I tried blowing in his face, to gently flicking his beak (both witch make him extremely angry), to squirting water in his face from a bottle. You are never going to get his trust doing these things, you need to take a completely different attitude if you are ever going to earn his trust and I do mean earn it. You must take it slow and easy, never making him do what he is not comfortable with, this takes time and I mean weeks and months of not pushing yourself on him, let him decide when he is ready to take the next step toward friendship. It sounds like he has been mistreated in the past and it makes it more difficult but its not impossible if you are willing to take the time and effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danmcq Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Biting is a normal defense behavior. That is the only defense they have other than flying away. Right now your just pissing him off and making yourself the scary enemy. Avoid bites by watching his body language. You need to build trust. Once some marginal amount of trust is build, he may start accepting a favorite treat from you. Just watch his body language closely because greys are known for sucker bites even when thinking about taking a favorite treat. It takes time watching and analyzing your greys slightest eye pin or twitch to come to know their body language and favorite moves. This is going to take time and patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwick70 Posted August 20, 2013 Author Share Posted August 20, 2013 You are never going to get his trust doing these things, you need to take a completely different attitude if you are ever going to earn his trust and I do mean earn it. You must take it slow and easy, never making him do what he is not comfortable with, this takes time and I mean weeks and months of not pushing yourself on him, let him decide when he is ready to take the next step toward friendship. It sounds like he has been mistreated in the past and it makes it more difficult but its not impossible if you are willing to take the time and effort. <thanks for your reply Judygram. He does seem neglected, or Ignored, and he will be very lovable at times and then its like he has "Bi-polar Disorder"... One second hes all cool and calm, perched on your arm, and the next hes tearing chunks off your arm lol. It seems to me it aggravates him that my arm moves under his feet and he'll look down and "Chomp"... I am willing to be patient with him but am totally ignorant to Parrots and their behavior... I do feel sorry for him sitting there all wet, looking at me like ive just abused him. I want to be the best parent he could possibly have... thanks again> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwick70 Posted August 20, 2013 Author Share Posted August 20, 2013 Biting is a normal defense behavior. That is the only defense they have other than flying away. Right now your just pissing him off and making yourself the scary enemy. Avoid bites by watching his body language. You need to build trust. Once some marginal amount of trust is build, he may start accepting a favorite treat from you. Just watch his body language closely because greys are known for sucker bites even when thinking about taking a favorite treat. It takes time watching and analyzing your greys slightest eye pin or twitch to come to know their body language and favorite moves. This is going to take time and patience. <Yes I totally know what you mean with the "Sucker bites", and have been victim to that already. He seems as though he wants to be friends and loves his neck scratched, but when he's done being scratched, no warning, he turns and "CHOMP"... I do notice suttle changes in his behavior like when he is playing like he wants his neck scratched only to sucker bite you lol... I guess it will take time that i'm willing to give... I had a pet Cockatiel once and he was a totally different bird. Would follow me around the yard and perch on my shoulder, and WOE to the person who invaded our space while we were Bonding lmao. I trimmed his wings and all... My parrot, or "Wilber" I call him, will take treats from me but will drop them to get to bite you. It seems to me hes not wanting his cage invaded... well thanks my friend and take care...> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danmcq Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 A grey is not like any other parrot. They are very aloof, stately, type A personality that maps out each millimeter of their home and every item in it. They will be very bothered by new items and stay away from them until they have watched them from a distance sometimes taking a week or two to get with in 2 feet of it. Many are cage aggressive as well. They are masters of the okee doke sucker bites, have a poker face and are faster than greased lightening. Then nip when they become tried of the scratches is also fairly common. My grey does that both to my wife (his love muffin) and me when he is done with the scratches. I must say though, over the years he has come to realize through our verbal feedback of "That was too hard" over and over that if he just gives a firm beaking we know he is done with scratches. The are one of the most intelligent creatures on this planet, so please give him feedback like you would a brat child that comes up and gives you a good kick inthe shin by letting them know it's unacceptable behavior and playing for the next xxx time period is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwick70 Posted August 20, 2013 Author Share Posted August 20, 2013 Oh and I was wondering- He gets in these moods that I notice, where he struts around his home, Showing off, doing flips, and acting kinda what I would call nervous and makes all sorts of noises. Somewhere he heard a fire alarm when the battery was dying ROFLMAO, and says a few choice words, but mostly electronic noises. Oh and he does the back up horn on the garbage truck and a turkey clucking "SMH"... Is this a behavior saying he's scared, or is he Angry, or is this a happy thing? He doesn't really seem scared cause when I walk to the cage to watch, he comes to the corner to face me, like a Mexican stand off. I feel he's sizing me up lol. And another thing, when I leave the room he drives my wife crazy doing these noises, like he doesn't want me to leave, and when I return, he's quiet as a mouse. She says when I leave for work he does it all morning till I return. I'm confused cause he acts like he's getting a thrill out of trying to trick me into getting bit, (like the scratch my neck please thing, looking out the corner of his eye to sucker bite me). I see great intelligence in him and I think him or me one is bi-polar lmao...I feel i'm the idiot sometimes lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbersmom Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I rehomed my TAG last summer, so I feel your pain. With Timber, the main issue was trust, and it takes a long time to develop. My best advice for you is to read the thread "Gilbert is home." It is long, but has a lot of helpful information from one of our members and her rehoming experience. The url for that is http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?192443-Gilbert-is-home Good luck and God bless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katana600 Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Welcome to our forum, you definitely have a heart for wanting to do right by Wilbur and came to a good place for people to give you some insight based on what has worked for our African Greys. Way cool you are from Gilbert WV since our little guy is named Gilbert. Once thing I have learned is the concept of grey time. This is different than any other creature you have encountered on earth and some things will make your world seem upside down. Like you say, the more he likes you the less he talks when you come into the room. It could be that having you out of sight he feels necessary to make contact calls which is something they do in the wild. When you leave the room and he makes a whistle if you make it back to him, it will be reassuring to him. We have some of the same behavior you describe, we used to refer to Gilbert as Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde. You just never know what you are going to get. With Gilbert it was definitely fear driven. Slowly, with consistency, over more than a couple of years, we are still making progress. As you already have surmised, there really is no way to "punish" a parrot or give them aversion therapy, they are so clever that they don't react like a cat might to a squirt of water. He knows darn well where it came from and will wait many weeks or months to let you know that. The only way I can think of it is... you can push a wet string to make it go where you want, but it is going to take a long time, be unpredictable and messy. Instead you must lead by example and patience and show Wilbur that you have wonderful things in store for him when he decides to trust you. Believe me, when the day comes that he responds to you with affection and trust, it is better than winning the lottery. You have the heart for figuring him out and appealing to his nature, you are in for a challenge but I think you can do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvparrots Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Hi Bigwick, welcome to the Grey family. I do not have an aggressive grey but I do have a biting Blue Front Amazon. Louie was owned by a man who became ill and his wife and daughter put him outside. When I purchased him they told me he was "wild". Louie speaks Hindu, which I do not understand but he also speaks English. He is a very bright and loving zon, but only on his terms. I can't touch him or he will bite me. Every time. Not hard but he does bite. But, we are friends and Louie follows me all over my home. He is a great flyer. He likes and prefers men so when I do move on I have instructed by daughter to see that he has a male owner if I don't find one myself for him. Louie sits on my shoulder and likes to nibble my ears so we have a little battle going on there. He loves to preen my hair and will gently take treats from me. As long as Louie is the one who does the touching, all is golden. I suggest you stop trying to get your grey to do has you want and let him decide how much he wants to be around you. Open his cage door and back off and see what he does. Let him decide where your relation will go. Relax and just be a follower. My Louie tries very hard to understand what I want from him. He will go in and out of his cage at my command. He tries very hard to be my friend and of my three parrots, he is the favorite of everyone. Yes this untouchable parrot is most liked. Go figure! Louie has lived with me for almost three years. He is 5 years old now. He is a jewel in his own way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VStar Mama Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 OKay, so I feel weird about posting advice regarding a parrot problem as I don't have a parrot or much in the way of hands on experience. But I have done a lot of reading and some of tmy psychology education to bring to bear on the problem. One of the things that came to mind reading this thread as well as many of the other threads detailing problems with parrots is an account I read from Dr. Irene Pepperberg and her research program with Alex. In the article I read, one of the teaching techniques Dr. Pepperberg utilized was model-rival training technique. Dr. Pepperberg would use a graduate student or students, who acted as part of the flock, to demonstrate the lesson. I wonder if such a technique could be used to help retrain parrots by demonstrating the types of responses we would prefer instead of a bite. Similar article here http://www.birdchannel.com/bird-behavior-and-training/bird-training/model-rival-technique-african-greys.aspx For example, the sucker bites have been mentioned in several of the threads that I've read. What if we started using confederates (like kids or significant others) to demonstrate appropriate responses to get the human to cease unwanted behaviors. Since neck scratching was specifically mentioned, what if the significant other solicited a neck scratch (using parrot-like behaviors) from another and after a while used a word or noise to stop the scratching and the scratcher would move away. Such a scenario would have to be repeated multiple times in the vicinity of the bird. But I think that eventually a parrot is going to catch on and solicit what he/she wants from us (like scratches) and then also tell us when they don't want any more. In essence, we'd be showing our birds how to control our behavior as well as communicate with us as we also learn how to communicate with them. I've read in a couple of the links that parrots learn to bite in order to control the humans behavior. So, it makes a bit of sense to me to start to teach companion parrots less painful ways of controlling our behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwick70 Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 Thank you VStar Mama, you just gave me a brilliant idea i'm going to begin tomorrow. Actually, please don't think I've gone bonkers but I was testing it before I started this reply. I just made Wilbur a nice perch to react with him on and i'm thinking if I put him on it and kinda slump over the other side with him, he'll get the feel i'm on there with him and accept me into the flock. I'm eye level with him this way cause the perch is like 5 feet off the floor. I did this a second ago and whistled to him and immediately he was curious. He even leaned in like he wanted a kiss but i'm afraid my lips will end up like my fingers lmao. It can't hurt! I've been getting him out everyday to socializing anyway so a few minutes of this might help. Wilbur has been great all day today . He's been out all day being quite a gentlemen and has very softly bit me a few time but not hard at all. We did the "Step Up" exercise several times today. I have two sticks I use for him to step on since he's uncomfortable with my hand and bites me usually when I reach below the belt, but today he would kinda reach (to bite) when I switched from stick to hand and I gently said "Natt", not loud but stern, and he dropped his head almost immediately and pulled back like he was ashamed of himself, then the next try he would step on my arm like a pro. after we finished the exercise and it had been over a while, I would try it again, and again, he bites to let me know "hey back up dude, then I use the sticks the first few times, and he's fine. I'm so proud of my Bird I could burst at the seams. I think patents is what he needs most and a loving heart. I have plenty of that for him Thank you for the advise my friend and i'm sure Wilbur will too... ... OKay, so I feel weird about posting advice regarding a parrot problem as I don't have a parrot or much in the way of hands on experience. But I have done a lot of reading and some of tmy psychology education to bring to bear on the problem. One of the things that came to mind reading this thread as well as many of the other threads detailing problems with parrots is an account I read from Dr. Irene Pepperberg and her research program with Alex. In the article I read, one of the teaching techniques Dr. Pepperberg utilized was model-rival training technique. Dr. Pepperberg would use a graduate student or students, who acted as part of the flock, to demonstrate the lesson. I wonder if such a technique could be used to help retrain parrots by demonstrating the types of responses we would prefer instead of a bite. Similar article here http://www.birdchannel.com/bird-behavior-and-training/bird-training/model-rival-technique-african-greys.aspx For example, the sucker bites have been mentioned in several of the threads that I've read. What if we started using confederates (like kids or significant others) to demonstrate appropriate responses to get the human to cease unwanted behaviors. Since neck scratching was specifically mentioned, what if the significant other solicited a neck scratch (using parrot-like behaviors) from another and after a while used a word or noise to stop the scratching and the scratcher would move away. Such a scenario would have to be repeated multiple times in the vicinity of the bird. But I think that eventually a parrot is going to catch on and solicit what he/she wants from us (like scratches) and then also tell us when they don't want any more. In essence, we'd be showing our birds how to control our behavior as well as communicate with us as we also learn how to communicate with them. I've read in a couple of the links that parrots learn to bite in order to control the humans behavior. So, it makes a bit of sense to me to start to teach companion parrots less painful ways of controlling our behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwick70 Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 I rehomed my TAG last summer, so I feel your pain. With Timber, the main issue was trust, and it takes a long time to develop. My best advice for you is to read the thread "Gilbert is home." It is long, but has a lot of helpful information from one of our members and her rehoming experience. The url for that is http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?192443-Gilbert-is-home Good luck and God bless! I will read it, and thank you kindly for referring it to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwick70 Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 Welcome to our forum, you definitely have a heart for wanting to do right by Wilbur and came to a good place for people to give you some insight based on what has worked for our African Greys. Way cool you are from Gilbert WV since our little guy is named Gilbert. Once thing I have learned is the concept of grey time. This is different than any other creature you have encountered on earth and some things will make your world seem upside down. Like you say, the more he likes you the less he talks when you come into the room. It could be that having you out of sight he feels necessary to make contact calls which is something they do in the wild. When you leave the room and he makes a whistle if you make it back to him, it will be reassuring to him. We have some of the same behavior you describe, we used to refer to Gilbert as Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde. You just never know what you are going to get. With Gilbert it was definitely fear driven. Slowly, with consistency, over more than a couple of years, we are still making progress. As you already have surmised, there really is no way to "punish" a parrot or give them aversion therapy, they are so clever that they don't react like a cat might to a squirt of water. He knows darn well where it came from and will wait many weeks or months to let you know that. The only way I can think of it is... you can push a wet string to make it go where you want, but it is going to take a long time, be unpredictable and messy. Instead you must lead by example and patience and show Wilbur that you have wonderful things in store for him when he decides to trust you. Believe me, when the day comes that he responds to you with affection and trust, it is better than winning the lottery. You have the heart for figuring him out and appealing to his nature, you are in for a challenge but I think you can do it. Hello Katana600 and thanks for the feedback. Yes he defiantly is worth it to me. I am by nature a "Critter Person" and have also 2 small Maltese, was 1 female cat but now that number is 5 lol, I once raised 2 baby raccoons and returned the to the wild after over a year, (now they are really bad pets lmao). If someone offers you a pet Raccoon, SAY NO! They would destroy the house and yard in a matter of minutes, so I am used to having "my world turned upside-down" LITERALLY. They were so destructive that I said "heck, they are wild by nature, so naturally they will want to go live in the woods". Not true! They broke back inside through the heating duct and tore the attic out "SMHLMAO". But honestly, I still miss them. OK, back to Wilbur... You know he does whistle loud to me when I leave the room, and I whistle back then he will talk and make more weird noises. I never thought he was reassuring himself I was still close... I wish I had my camera to take a picture and show you all how cool he's being today up there on his perch. well my new friend, I thank you once again for your advise and hope Gilbert is cool too. Wilbur is being cool in Gilbert lmao...In Gilbert WV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwick70 Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 Hi Bigwick, welcome to the Grey family. I do not have an aggressive grey but I do have a biting Blue Front Amazon. Louie was owned by a man who became ill and his wife and daughter put him outside. When I purchased him they told me he was "wild". Louie speaks Hindu, which I do not understand but he also speaks English. He is a very bright and loving zon, but only on his terms. I can't touch him or he will bite me. Every time. Not hard but he does bite. But, we are friends and Louie follows me all over my home. He is a great flyer. He likes and prefers men so when I do move on I have instructed by daughter to see that he has a male owner if I don't find one myself for him. Louie sits on my shoulder and likes to nibble my ears so we have a little battle going on there. He loves to preen my hair and will gently take treats from me. As long as Louie is the one who does the touching, all is golden. I suggest you stop trying to get your grey to do has you want and let him decide how much he wants to be around you. Open his cage door and back off and see what he does. Let him decide where your relation will go. Relax and just be a follower. My Louie tries very hard to understand what I want from him. He will go in and out of his cage at my command. He tries very hard to be my friend and of my three parrots, he is the favorite of everyone. Yes this untouchable parrot is most liked. Go figure! Louie has lived with me for almost three years. He is 5 years old now. He is a jewel in his own way. Hello and thanks "luvparrots"... That is hilarious that your bird speaks Hindu ROFLMAO. How cool is that. Just more conformation of what I already know. They are so intelligent and you can see their gears turning, plotting their next move lol. Good thing he speaks English too huh? I do notice in Wilbur that it is when I press the issue he becomes irritated and ends up drawing blood. But other times he needs no reason. For example: I had him perched on my arm once, before I knew it he had drawn blood. I noticed him looking at my arm when I would flinch from the natural movement of my arm, then the next thing you know he bit me kinda easy twice and the last two drew blood. This all happened in like 4 seconds. Let me say this, IT HURTS VERY BAD TO BE BITTEN ON THE FOREARM!!! I did nothing to him what-so-ever. he just Flipped and began tearing off chunks lol. I jerked my arm and he flew off. Oh and He can fly but not stop lol. He fly's till he hits the wall or sees a curtain to grasp on to. I think your right in letting him decide if he wants to be social in any way. It breaks my heart thinking I've damaged an already shaky relationship with him, and he was trying his best to be my pal, and I, like an idiot, followed the first thing I read on the web and betrayed him. No wonder he has got worse. He's probably thinking "(This dude! I was trying to trust him then he started being pushy, then flicked my beak and blew stinky breath on me, and to top that off squirted me in the face. Ill never trust that back stabber again)". I think ill take it a little slower and not be so pushy from now on... Thanks again, my new friend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvparrots Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I'm very happy to see that you are going to take it slow. What we call Grey Time. Had to laugh at your rendition of what Wilbur is think, because it is probably very true. Let your grey take the lead and see what happens. They are so smart and do want to belong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwick70 Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 There is one more question if you guys don't mind - I hung a shiny chain with a bright key chain in his cage. He grabs it and "Very Violently" slings it across his cage (it is clamped at the top though). My question is, "Do you think it's irritating him or do they play with their toys that way sometimes"? I know I gave him - or rather he stole a key chain that was a rubber frog from me the other day, and chewed it to bits. He also has a red ink pen (ink cartridge removed lol) that he adores and he like chews on the tip then after he's done he gives it a toss across the table. Sometimes he grabs the Chain hooked to the top and holds it and nibbles on it, but most of the time he seems mad by it being there. Sorry if i'm being a pest but i'm happy to be learning how to care for my bird and trying to absorb as much as possible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbersmom Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 No worries, that's what this forum is about. Ask anything you want! Yes, most of our birds get violent with their toys at times, and seem to do it for pleasure. There are many things they seem to like to chew on for no apparent reason. Timber will chew on the links holding the chains, on the chains, and sometimes even on his cage bars. I really don't know what that is all about, but just accept that is something they do. Wish I was a mind reader! If they fear something in the cage, they usually avoid it, not attack it. When I add a new toy, Timber will just not go in the area of the cage where it is hanging until he decides it is time to check it out, which can be up to two weeks. If he attacks it, I can assume he likes it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvparrots Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 My gang love wooden toys to destroy. Great fun. I have bells in their cages and on their boings in the different rooms that they love to beat up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwick70 Posted August 22, 2013 Author Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) Thanks so much all you guys/gals for the info. Im glad it is a happy thing for him with the chain. LOL you should see him now... I made him a nice new perch out of grapevine and it is shaped like a bird cage over the perch. I think He feels more secure under it... Anyone else think they might be interested in getting a custom perch like the one I made him let me know. I have better pics of the whole thing Edited August 22, 2013 by Bigwick70 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbersmom Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Very nice and he looks comfortable on it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danmcq Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Wow, that Grape Vine hanging play area is too cool!!! You have a real talent. Have you ever considered making and selling these possibly? I would be one of the first in line to purchase one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judygram Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Most greys love a heavy duty bell that they can play fight with, I know mine does and it is her favorite thing in her cage, I never take it out and she can be very violent with it at times. That is one nice perch you made and please do share more pictures of it as I have some grapevines and could make one of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvparrots Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Oh I love that grapvine perch. Unfortunately, Louie, the zon, would have that destroyed in no time. He loves wood and destroys toys almost immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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