Challenges With Gracie

[JeffNOK]

Gracie my CAG will be two this month and she is asserting herself in challenging ways. It is no longer safe to give her beak "nose kisses". About 2 months ago she would occasionally nip, but now I just can't trust her. She is even devious about it. She calls me over, "Gracie want a kiss". Then she stretches her neck out and makes the sweetest kissing sound. She even says "No bite Daddy." I get close and BAM she takes a swipe at me. No pinning...no clue...pure deception. I have always managed to pull back before contact, but I am not risking it anymore. She will still nicely touch her beak to my hand or shoulder, though. I have to be very careful when opening her cage in the morning and changing her water and food. She can't bite me, but she often lunges and knocks the cage with her beak and scolds "Ah! Ah!" (imitating me when I admonish her for bad behavior). When I put her to bed at night, she steps up nicely but often "pops" me with her beak and says "Ah Ah" as I put her in her cage. It isn't a bite, but more of a beak slap. Sometimes when I see she is about to do that, I say "No No" and she usually stops before making contact. When we stay at my parents house for a day or two, however, she actually bites me. Tonight when I put her to bed she bit me and kept her beak dug into my skin with a hard pinch. It broke the skin slightly. I've been saying "No bite" and giving her "the look", but she just throws my words back at me. She is definitely worse at my parents' house. Much more acting up. The odd thing is that when I put her bed, she actually wants to go to sleep. She always asks for bed several times before I have her step up. She won't just put herself to bed. I have encouraged that and waited, but she won't just go in on her own. Sometimes I wonder if simply not reacting at all might work better than saying "Ah Ah no bite!". Time out doesn't work because this only happens when I put her to bed. I know this sort of behavior is not uncommon at her age, but I want to minimize it and nip it in the bud. I worry when she reaches sexual maturity it might become a more serious problem.

[danmcq]

Hi Jeff,

 

Your right. This behavior change when they approach the two year old age is very common and takes place in the wild as well. It is the instinctual time they start becoming independent from the care and guidance of their parents and start fending for themselves. It does take us back at times, because they are still viewed as our sweet baby that relied on us completely for guidance and were totally dependent upon us.

 

Greys are notorious for the sucker bite using that poker face and not telegraphing the lightening speed bite at all. It is good to hear no blood letting bite to your lips took place. My wife received a slight lip bte around that age from Dayo as well, which shocked her and truly hurt her feelings, since Dayo is her love muffin. She of course became much more cautious after in regards "Kisses". Greys become angry and upset just like a human when we somehow have slighted them many times without us even knowing we have done so. Just things like leaving them in their cage a little longer, moving a toy, taking something away, paying someone else attention, taking them some place they may not wish to be at home or at your parents house for example. They will act out like a brat teenager pissed off because it is NOT what THEY want.

 

Gracie is becoming cage aggressive, which is normal for many Greys and other Parrot species. It is THEIR home and space, which they will defend many times just as if it were their tree hole in the wild. So you just need to accept it and be cautious accordingly.

 

In regards the No Bites and other comments as you described being used with Gracie. They are fairly useless at this point as She is mocking you as she uses them back and delivers them anyway in defiance. Again, this is common and most the time as they mock, they are also telling you it is exactly what is going to happen. I cannot count the times Dayo will say Non, No, No as he walks or fly's to something forbidden and starts biting or shredding it. So, as you are contemplating, we have already put in to practice. We no longer say those words or phrases unless it is a bad thing already happening and he is either placed in his cage or we just walk away from him and ignore him until we can tell he can no longer stand the separation and comes saying he is "Sorry". This of coarse is a dynamic you will need to develop and adjust as you see how Gracie reacts to it. Each grey is different and more or less varying degrees of our responses and reactions will need to be employed. Taking Dayo to his cage for bedtime was a biting trip for months, but has now become a no bite situation and I don't even need to cup my hand over his back lightly to keep him from flying off my arm. Most times when it's bedtime we shut down the TV and speakers, go and tell him it's time to go to bed in a soft loving voice and wait until he lifts a talon. It may take smooth talking for 30 seconds or a minute, but he willing goes after that.

 

Just be very observant. My thoughts on bites is to avoid situations that cause them, develop ways to interact on a level they are willing to go along with what is about to happen and be very consistent once developed. This takes a long time to do, but works with perseverance and consistency. In other words, you and Gracie will come to to an understanding mutually now that she is on her way to adulthood.

Edited July 4, 2013 by danmcq

[JeffNOK]

Thank you for your response, Dan. As frustrating as it can be, its fun to learn as Gracie changes. It challenges me. On a positive note, her vocabulary continues to grow, and she makes me laugh all the time.

[Greywings]

Jeff has nailed it avoiding the bite by avoiding those situations or triggers will save your feelings and your lips.

[Timbersmom]

That two-year-old behavior reminds me so much of toddlers. My kids would say "no" just as they reached for a forbidden item. I'm not sure I was always as patient with them as you are with Gracie!

[birdhouse]

Seems like Gracie is very at home at your parent's. So I think the difference in the way she behaves there is more like her vacation attitude. Your house your rules (when absolutely necessary). Their house, a little more Gracie unleashed. lol

 

And believe it or not, she's really not so bad. Once you can get over feeling the big reaction to her acting like her wild cousins, I think the two of you will live happily ever after. Just w/a few speed bumps along the way.

 

You've already trained Gracie not to bite. She's telling you in no uncertain terms that she knows full well what you expect & simply doesn't chose to adhere because she's not your little girl any more. She's everything you said you wanted her to grow up to be. Oh so smart, fierce & arrogant w/a few demands & very definitely strong minded will of her own.

 

I know you think you've known this all a along. But she's making a concerted effort to show you a whole different interpretation. Biting, nipping, pecking is the obvious way to drive a point home to slow witted humans. Now it's your turn to get schooled in what Gracie expects & renegotiate the pecking order. (puns intended)

 

Better to approach this w/a sense of humor because some of it is just a bad joke. Gracie's idea of funny. It turns out that parrots can tend to a slightly sick sense of humor & the more something bugs you, the funnier it is.

 

I know it's not the popular approach but try learning how to pout & throw a faux temper tantrum effectively. You can't lie to a parrot, anyway. So it's better to channel those emotion towards a positive outcome.

 

Gracie's doing certain things to get a rise out of you as much as anything. So give her what she wants on your terms. };> Once I got it to work w/Phenix it's become a surprisingly effective training tool.

 

If she wants to go to bed, but she's still pecking at you when you pick her up, maybe put her down & act emotionally hurt. Walk away. Make her come to you & make nice before she gets the thing you know she's after. If it works, keep practicing w/situations which aren't very important & don't have any much genuine emotion involved.

 

If it blows up in your face, however it may well be because you didn't understand what motivated Gracie in the first place. If "she's been asking" to go to bed, is she trying to communicate that she's gotten frustrated waiting, for instance? Not to mention tired & cranky. Wondering if she doesn't put herself to bed because she still needs that bonding ritual w/her Daddy, just to throw something else into the mix as well. So is she actually justified in giving you a little attitude?

 

From here on it's mostly about manipulation & negotiation. That, I think is where parronts have the hardest time coping w/the terrible 2's & 3's. When mature young adults continue to be seen & treated like they don't get a say it can create issues. Now that they have a mind of their own, they will find a way to be heard. And it's not always easy to figure out who or what's causing it & how to settle things fairly. Sometimes it's a process & those take time.

 

The good news is Gracie was born w/a mind of her own. She wasn't the easiest baby & you've been dealing w/a fledgling version all along. All that practice might actually make the process easier for you, in the long run.

Edited July 4, 2013 by birdhouse

[JeffNOK]

The tricky thing in all this is that greys are such individuals. What works for one, fails for another. What works for a while, fails later. What fails for a while, works later. It's an ever evolving dance. It keeps me on my toes! This morning she has been the sweetest girl in the world. She has been sitting on her perch, saying "Gracie's happy happy happy." "Gracie loves Daddy", and "Gracie's a good bird!", also singing her own versions of several songs I have taught her. If I didn't have a swollen red mark on my arm to remind me, I could easily forget her feisty side.

[Dave007]

Actually,. It could turn out to be a wise lesson. It wasn't serious but it could have been. For years I'v been telling people not to kiss a bird's beak because of the unknown. but people just don't listen and find that kissing a bird's beak is some kind of affection. Well, getting bitten this time wasn't showing affection. It's the same thing I've told people about birds being allowed on shoulders until a peron is positive that nothing will happen but people just can't resist. In the wild, greys don't kiss each other. They mouthe each other.

This is a person who had a love affair with his bird. The guy was a kisser. He had the bird since it was 6 mt's old. It was 2 years old when this happened. He kissed the bird hundreds of times. Needless to say, he doesn't kss his bird's beak anymore.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Dave007

[Timbersmom]

Yikes! That is a post with a lot of impact Dave.

[Talon]

Omg Dave. Thank you for posting that it's a lesson we all need to be reminded of.....I ne'er trust my birds to kiss them. We do a,pretend kiss at a distance of maybe 4 inches and I am always careful to watch and ready to pull away in case they lunge at me.

[JeffNOK]

Talon, I am doing the four-inch away kiss now myself. It's not the same, but better safe than sorry.

[Luvparrots]

Never kiss my parrots but mine (except my re-homed zon) kiss me on the cheek. They just touch their beaks to my cheek. I watch them very closely and turn my face so my eyes/mouth/nose are not available. No open beaks or the kissing would certainly stop. As for Louie, the zon, he is a biter and I never trust him near my face.

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

Terrible twos truly stink, but I can't imagine life without Sophie and I exchanging kisses, beak to nose snuggles. Nancy

[Talon]

Talon, I am doing the four-inch away kiss now myself. It's not the same, but better safe than sorry.

 

Jeff, it DEFINATELY is not te same for sure. I must admit, I do allow a beak kiss on the lips from my greys when we are on our way to bed, depending on their body language, their mood, and how quiet they have been. Not every night, but some nights......always with a missy sound. BUT never with my amazon, as much as she loves me and loves to cuddle, she is very affectionate, but she leans to far towards me with her beak open, and she is a biter. Like Janet, I mostly keep my face turned away if she is on my shoulder so she can't bite it, or keep my distance when we are chatting. As sweet as she is, she can give a nasty bite.

[judygram]

Josey will give both of us beaky kisses, I love them.

[chelseaB]

I really feel for you Jeff, I remember when Biscotti decided he was going to "be his own bird", at around the same age as Gracie, lol. Who stole my sweet little boy??? He quickly became a no shoulder bird after a nasty reach around the side, skin breaking bite that just missed my eye. We have also gone to a stick (perch, whatever) for return trips to his cage. He also is protective of "his house" so I do his maid service while he is preoccupied with something. He has just turned 4 & I have to say, we have gotten into a comfortable routine that we are both happy with, me because I am not getting the nasty bites, yes-skin breaking, bruised for a week type, and him because his "space" is not being violated by me. I never did "kiss him on the beak", as he so often talks about. It was always a pretend kiss from inches away, and he still likes that.

Hang in there, you two will figure out what will work for your future together, this too shall pass.

[chezron]

Brutus went through the "terrible twos" although my husband got the brunt of it. We worked through it though, and Brutus is pretty much nice all the time now. I think the same thing will happen with Gracie. Brutus never did the "sucker punch' but he would fly at the back of your head and hit you with his body or grab your head with his feet. I think i heard him laugh when he did it

A couple of times he flew at my face, but did no damage because I ducked in time. Now THAT was rather shocking and upsetting.

Maybe it is a mistake, but I do kiss the top of his beak, but ONLY when I get a clear signal that it is okay. I usually ask him if he wants a kiss and he swings his head toward me, and I can tell he is being sweet because he his eyes pin and makes a sharp whistle in greeting.

He really has never been territorial about his cage. I am not sure why.

 

He used to play a little rough when you held him, but I say,"be a kind and gentle boy" and he finally knows what that means and responds accordingly. A couple of times before he would squeeze a finger too hard and I would throw him in the air. I think he got the point because he would rather be with Mama, even if it means playing nicer. Now if he has my finger in his mouth and is starting to squeeze, I say, "be a kind and gentle boy" and he eases up.

 

The other problem we had was there was a period of time when he wouldn't go to bed. He was completely obstinate about it. I got around it by turning off all the lights BEFORE asking him to step up. My rational being, when he can't see it is difficult for him to be "bitey." This worked very well. Now we no longer have an issue. He actually ASKS to go to bed and goes to bed easily and with the lights on.

 

FYI I never allow him on my shoulder as I cannot watch his face or body language to gauge how is feeling or thinking.

 

One thing i do and I think it works for Brutus is to tell him how I am proud of him and what he is doing right. I usually do this in the evening when he is relaxed and listening. I really believe they want to be an asset and contributor to a good home, but when they are going through the twos this is a phase where that is not particularly true, and please don't take it personally.

Edited July 5, 2013 by chezron

[JeffNOK]

Thanks all. Yesterday Gracie was and absolute gem the whole day. She went to bed happily and there was no attitude. We will see how today goes. Fingers crossed.

Edited July 5, 2013 by JeffNOK

[Talon]

Nice to hear you had a good day Jeff!

 

Just a thought I'm going to throw out...my cag Rikki misbehaves for a day or two after if she had too much cheese.....once and a while, she helps herself to too much pizza or mac & cheese.

[birdhouse]

I usually avoid kissing the fids full on & it's usually Eskimo kisses when we actually make contact. But that's only because of the possibility of swapping germs.

 

Very early on, I saw a shouldered Zon rip the soft part of his owner's cheek wide open; bad enough to need plastic surgery. It was every bit as nasty as Dave's pic only it happened right in front of me & still makes me a little queasy when I remember it. So I won't ever disagree w/anyone who says the smart thing is to keep a safe distance.

 

I also know someone who needed surgery after a bite that resulted in a ripped tendon in their hand. These guys are much more dangerous than they look & people should respect that any time they handle their fids.

 

But they also need to remember that if anything translates as fear the fids will pick up on it. Some birds might not care. But many won't fully trust us unless we fully trust them & that can create its own backlash. So, it's kind of important to keep in mind when deciding "To kiss or not to kiss...?" , "To shoulder or not...?".

[Wingy]

I won't do kissy lips. I like my lips on my face. Jake will put his head down for a nuzzle and make kissy noises. I am content with that.

[pikachu]

Jeff, my Maui was two in April. It has been interesting "watching" Gracie grow up.

Just yesterday, I was wondering how much longer I'll be able to keep kissing her.

I am always cautious.

I've gotten in the habit of hooking my index finger under her top bill and then giving her a kiss. It seems to keep her beak occupied.

Although she doesn't bite me, I have never allowed her on my shoulder. Having her there where I can't see her scares me.

[JeffNOK]

It is indeed interesting experiencing the development of our greys. Gracie truly amazes me. I love her to bits which is why it hurts my feelings a bit when she is being a grump. On a light note, Gracie was a real ham on the fourth of July. We had a little BBQ with friends and family, and Gracie wanted to be in the middle of everything. She constantly tried to get our attention by talking or singing. She kept flying around the table just inches above everyone's heads making sure to fly over each guest. Whenever we would laugh, she would laugh as well...just to be part of the flock.

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

Gracie is adorable, and always has been! She already understands NO BITE! A wonderful thing as she goes into terrible twos. For now, I suggest readjusting your training strategy, meaning, no shoulder, continue to reinforce NO BITE and returning to cage when she does. Protect yourself, but continue with your expectations of her.The twos does pass, and hopefully you find yourself with a bird that wants to be with you 24/7 like Sophie. Nancy

[Wingy]

Jake has been a real stinker the past few weeks. I do believe that he isn't getting enough nap time on the weekends which is causing him to have a bad attitude. Today he spent the day out of his cage and flying around but tonight he was a brat with his diving, pulling hair and biting so we put him to bed an hour before his usual weeknight bed time. He settled right down and started beak grinding so my guess is he was over tired.