An aggressive, charging, misunderstood 25 year old grey

[bry1929]

Welp, hey guys! I'm new here and I'm hoping you maybe able to help me out some.

 

I have a 25 year old African grey parrot, Larry, who's favorite pass time is to bite and charge at people. (Well, I take that back, after doing a little more research, he's not as bad as I've read in other birds.)

 

My dad had gotten Larry from a friend who had some problems with training Larry and was pretty much abusive of him. Larry was probably in the early ripe age of 1 year. My dad offered to take him off his hands and they soon bonded with one another.

 

They were very close. I believe Larry had bitten his original owner a few times. Larry bit my dad pretty bad one day (he blames himself for being careless) and that's when he realized Larry could really hurt someone. I came along and dad had to get rid of Larry since I liked to stick my little fingers in the cage.

 

Larry was then handed off to my aunt and grandmother- who at the time was both living together. Aunt moved out to her own place and Larry was with my grandmother for awhile. My cousin had visited and stuck his own fingers in the cage and got bit pretty hard, too. Larry bit my grandmother on her finger (down to the bone) having her end up with 7 stitches. :eek:

 

As the years went by, my grandmother could no longer live by herself anymore and ended up moving in with my aunt once again. Now, once I get my own place, I want to take Larry with me. I love Larry. I can see he wants to be loved too, but it's almost by nature he has to bite. You can't stick your fingers in there for too long or you WILL get bit. Period.

 

My aunt only feeds him bird seeds since he doesn't like any other bird food (he picks everything out). Since I've been at my aunts place for a little bit, I want to establish something with me and Larry. I've been giving him plenty of vegetables and fruits now. I share with him whatever I eat- don't worry I'm a vegetarian. :cool:

 

I've been doing some research to make him tamable, and frankly, I am confused :confused: ! I saw one method where they train the bird by starting the bird to touch the end of a chopstick, then giving a treat for doing so. What about just getting the bird to let you touch him? What if he tries to bite you? Do you yell?

 

I know that was a LOT to read but if anyone could help, I would be so grateful!

 

Thank you so so much!

[Jayd]

;)Let's start this journey by building trust...on a one to one basis. This works equally well for a fledgling or a bird that has been around the block a few times and carries a lot of baggage. Since this bird is older, he's ready to settle into a rather sedate, quiet life of enjoying his surroundings and contemplation. His only challenge right now is to be left alone, have food and a place to sleep with fingers the farthest thing from his mind.

So, what we want to do is give him a place in the middle of our surroundings that he can be quiet and observant with no unexpected surprises. When anyone walks by, acknowledge him by saying "Hi Larry" or "How're you doing Larry?" Pull up a chair next to his cage, sit down with him and read him a quiet book out loud, show him pictures (even just the printed pages), sing him a quiet song (even if you can't sing, he won't care), and do this a couple of times a day. After a while, when you get ready to leave, touch the cage lightly and tell him "See you later, Larry" and "I'll be back" with no sudden motions or movements. If you have the cage door open or if he is out of the cage, this is even better. Rome wasn't built in a day...and it will take days, weeks or possibly months before you see a change. What you are not trying to do is to take this poor creature back to a fledgling who will be exuberant and do tricks and fly gayly around his home. :rolleyes: What you are trying to do is bring peace to this "older" Grey who wants nothing more in life than to sit, speak softly to...if he comes out of his cage and need to get him back in and he will not cooperate, use a towel, softly from the back. He will not hold this against you. We prefer and hope he will go in on his own.

When it becomes possible, take him into the bedroom and with the lights dim with you and he on the bed, talk to him quietly and when he comes to you (Don't approach him), let him come to you and just talk to him. After time, put your hand out to him and let him come to you. Only touch his head and beak while talking to him. Once again please remember, we are not trying to raise and tame a youth but to give peace and relaxation to a Grey whose mind will be most active thinking about what an older Grey thinks about. We want to bring peace,comfort, relaxation, good food to this wonderful companion. If after all this time, you get a step up or a Hello and are able to see the reflection of enjoyment as he eats his food, standing on one leg with his belly feathers quivering, (content) you can ask for no more..you have succeeded in what needed to be done. I'll add more to this thread as we go along.

I just mentioned in another post that our Greys can be extremely cage-territorial. This companion Larry definitely needs us to keep our fingers, hands and other body parts out of his cage until he tells us we are allowed to. Larry may never bond in the sense of a new bird bonding. But, you definitely can bring him to a state of companionship with a happy coexistence between you and him. ;)Thank you, my lovely wife Maggie typed this thread for me. Jay

[danmcq]

W My cousin had visited and stuck his own fingers in the cage and got bit pretty hard, too. Larry bit my grandmother on her finger (down to the bone) having her end up with 7 stitches. :eek:

 

You can't stick your fingers in there for too long or you WILL get bit. Period.

 

I've been doing some research to make him tamable, and frankly, I am confused :confused: ! I saw one method where they train the bird by starting the bird to touch the end of a chopstick, then giving a treat for doing so. What about just getting the bird to let you touch him? What if he tries to bite you? Do you yell? Thank you so so much!

 

The others have given good comments and thoughts. First, the cage is Larry's home and place of safety. Most Greys are at various levels cage aggressive. This is understandable because it is THEIR home you are trying to invade with your fingers. This is not the place to try and interact with them by sticking your fingers in thinking you can pet or scratch them like a dog. Greys are still wild and not domesticated over thousands of years like a dog.

 

You need to get to where Larry will come out of the cage and it is on these neutral grounds he can decided how close he wishes you to be and IF he has any desire at all for a scratch for example. You can use a short perch for example to get a step up outside the cage. Maybe this is what you are calling a chop stick?

 

But, as others have already said. The first thing you need to do is build trust over time with lots of patience. The second thing you need to do is learn grey body language so you know when to stop moving your hand towards him because it is through this that he is physically telling you if you proceed a bite will happen.

 

Please read this topic we have here on this forum by clicking on this link. It will help you in understanding grey body language: http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?109373-Body-language-most-frequently-seen

[judygram]

That's the first thing that should be taught to everyone especially children to never stick their fingers inside a bird's cage.

[MoonRock]

Be prepared for taking a few steps back with Larry after you have been moving forward. In my experience with a somewhat older (I was told he is 8ish years old- I estimate he is actually at least 21) Grey, sometimes you think you are making huge progress and other times you feel like you are back to square one. I think this is all part of the process. For Greys with a lot of baggage like Larry and Oscar, it takes a lot for them to learn how to trust again. After all, humans have wronged them for years.

 

Take care of yourself too- if you need a break from your work with Larry, go on a walk or take a bubble bath, do something enjoyable for you. When Oscar screams or bites, I do my best not to show him my frustration. Oscar has the extra burden of being wild-caught, so who knows what he remembers of his beginnings. So be patient and read to him, sing to him, and definitely joke with him as he gets more comfortable with you. Oscar has a great sense of humor and loves it when I act silly and playful with him. I suspect Larry has a rich inner world as well.

 

I have found it invaluable to keep a training journal for Oscar. Some days I read back at my early posts, and see just how far Oscar has come overall. I would love to read more about Larry, and I suspect others would as well.

[Jayd]

Be prepared for taking a few steps back with Larry after you have been moving forward. In my experience with a somewhat older (I was told he is 8ish years old- I estimate he is actually at least 21) Grey, sometimes you think you are making huge progress and other times you feel like you are back to square one. I think this is all part of the process. For Greys with a lot of baggage like Larry and Oscar, it takes a lot for them to learn how to trust again. After all, humans have wronged them for years.

 

Take care of yourself too- if you need a break from your work with Larry, go on a walk or take a bubble bath, do something enjoyable for you. When Oscar screams or bites, I do my best not to show him my frustration. Oscar has the extra burden of being wild-caught, so who knows what he remembers of his beginnings. So be patient and read to him, sing to him, and definitely joke with him as he gets more comfortable with you. Oscar has a great sense of humor and loves it when I act silly and playful with him. I suspect Larry has a rich inner world as well.

 

I have found it invaluable to keep a training journal for Oscar. Some days I read back at my early posts, and see just how far Oscar has come overall. I would love to read more about Larry, and I suspect others would as well.

 

Very good, if I may, it's not a matter of " learning how to trust" as it is a matter of wanting to trust again. Do to the fact that a Grey is capable of complex thoughts and emotions they are more apt to question "do I want to trust again" then a matter of re-training...Since they already know how to trust, they do not need to relearn it.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Jayd

[zandische]

...but the gist is: Give a choice. The parrot chooses. Fun ensues. If the bird made the choice, he's part of the fun. If the bird chooses not to, he's made aware of the fun, and can request to opt-in, but the bird is not persuaded into the fun.

Very good, if I may, it's not a matter of " learning how to trust" as it is a matter of wanting to trust again. Do to the fact that a Grey is capable of complex thoughts and emotions they are more apt to question "do I want to trust again" then a matter of re-training...Since they already know how to trust, they do not need to relearn it.

Both are very good points. I would add that we as humans tend to personify the meaning behind why our birds do the things they do and that can get us into a lot of trouble, especially when it comes to working with abused/aggressive/angry birds. It's important to re-establish trust with these birds, but keep in mind that "trust" does not necessarily mean, "You're a wonderful person and I love you," but in a Grey's world, means more of "I'm confident that every time I do X, Y action will occur."

 

I have some experience that may help, and even though I'm a relative newbie to the methods I describe below, it has turned my terrordactyl into a bird that I not only trust to be on me but can handle with ease - in less than 4 months. (To be fair, I've had Gryphon from 16 weeks old so we already have a certain level of bond.) We don't have a perfect relationship and he is not a velcro bird by any stretch, but our relationship has become one of mutual respect and a willingness to work together. I sometimes make mistakes or push him too far but rather than try to eat my hand like he used to, I now get a gentle warning nip or "bump." Someday, I hope to not even have that. I fell in love with my 4 year old CAG, Gryphon, the first time I laid eyes on him. Unfortunately, Gryph has not always loved me back. As he has matured from a baby he has become increasingly aggressive toward me, to the point that I could no longer handle him. I have visible scars on my hands and arms, my upper lip was nearly bitten in half, and my bottom lip, eyes, nose and cheeks have all suffered wounds. I anguished over re-homing him and I just accepted that he hated me, or was hormonal, that I had done something to him inadvertently, or it was just something he was always going to do. To protect myself from serious injury, I had to cease interaction with him - which of course, is the opposite of everything I wanted to be able to do.

 

But the real problem was two-fold - my bird had learned to bite me, and I was trying to figure out "how to tame him" instead of looking at how to just prevent it in the first place.

 

Do you know what the word "tame" means? It means to subdue, to make submissive and docile, to make domesticated. Greys are anything but domesticated, and they certainly never see themselves as less than anyone else in their flock. Flock members may hold different positions of note (such as leader, mate, sibling, lookout etc), but Greys are all socially equal in the flock. The bottom line is that you will never be able to "subdue" a Grey, but you can teach him to interact in ways that make you both happy.

 

As a last ditch effort in January before re-homing Gryphon, I took a parrot behavior class by an avian behaviorist who works with my local vet. Her methods are not new - it's positive-avoidance-reward training, but I had never understood it so succinctly before. The main idea is that by the time your bird has bitten you it is too late to correct the problem - the desired effect has been achieved and the parrot, at least, thinks he has won. Telling your bird "bad bird" or "no" or "don't bite!" at this point achieves nothing, so it is better to just walk away and evaluate how to improve the next interaction so the behavior doesn't occur again. Therefore, you want to seek to avoid negative behaviors by shaping positive interactions through generous rewards.

 

A second key component of this method is separating "behavior" from "emotion." Behavior is any action the bird takes in a given situation. You may classify his various behaviors into good or bad categories, but the bird doesn't care - all he cares about is that Behavior A produces Reaction X. Reaction X, by default, is always the desired outcome. And it certainly doesn't matter why Behavior A occurs, only that Reaction X is what happens after. Ever notice that no matter what your bird does, he always acts as if he is in the right? That's because every action the bird takes is deliberately done to produce a desired effect. He doesn't ever make mistakes! Good or bad means nothing to the bird so long as the outcome is what he intended to happen.

 

So how do you change those bad behaviors into something good?

 

For example, the bird wants you to leave him alone, so he lunges at you when you try to come over to him. There could be a hundred reasons WHY he doesn't want you around, and you could spend countless brain cells trying to figure it out - but the only thing that's actually important in this equation is that by backing away/leaving when he lunges you have effectively produced his desired reaction. Now, you could choose not to leave, but chances are that if you stay in the vicinity of a lunging bird without giving him a reason to change his mind about you, he's going to go from lunging to biting you. That's definitely not progress!

 

Now, reverse the perspective, and lets say that every time you come near your bird's cage you offer him a treat. It won't matter one bit to your bird why you suddenly felt the need to drop by and give him treats, only that every time you do, he is going to get something he wants. The difference in this scenario is that you are BOTH getting the desired reaction (you stop getting lunged at and he gets tasty treats.) Given time, that kind of system could produce a situation where the bird starts stepping up in order to get treats, and who knows where that could go? The point being, you are teaching the bird that every time he interacts with you, it's a positive experience for him. You completely avoid any kind of negative interaction, and everyone gets rewarded. Positive-avoidance-reward.

 

A good place for you to start with Larry is just establishing a routine of treats to find out what he likes. If you give him a treat and he immediately throws it on the ground, offer something new. He may not trust you at all and so anything you offer him will be immediately discarded, but just keep offering treats until he realizes that he wants something you are giving him. It's great that you're sharing your food and giving him healthy food to try - keep that up! Once you have established that you are a source of something he wants, you can start training him to accept your presence near him by offering that as a reward. And once you have established that sense of security in your presence, then start working to get him to step up for you. Once you've mastered the basics of trust in you and stepping up, then worry about getting him to let you touch him.

 

Try to be understanding that this is a lot for Larry too - he has 25 years of learned behaviors to correct, and while Greys are very smart, it may be slow going. Sometimes, he may just want to be left alone and you need to respect that - again, a positive experience is any time you are both getting what you want. It means being willing to adjust expectations and give a little. An example is: the other day Gryphon was being super aggressive toward me when I tried to put him in his sister's cage (which he can't escape from) before I went to work. He was nipping at me - he rarely tries to bite hard anymore, another benefit of our relationship building - and kept flying from the play stand to his own cage, where I had already locked his sister in. This is a dangerous situation because they like to fight through the bars, and he's gotten hurt before that way. I was in a quandary - he would accept no treats from me and tried to lunge whenever I tried to lure him away. But, he was in real danger of getting hurt and I needed to get him down fast. I stepped back, took a breath, and examined his behavior. He was puffed up, pinning his eyes, strutting and flipping his wings, and pounding on the top of his cage - all things he does when he gets territorial. His behavior was territorial aggression, and it's not hard to guess that the desired outcome of which is that everyone nearby (both me and his sister) should back off! I realized suddenly that this was happening ON his cage and while it is common for us to switch cages with them all the time, he had decided that TODAY he wanted to be in HIS home, and no amount of persuasion from me was going to change his mind. Now, I could have demanded my will be done (ie, tried to tame/subdue/make him submit) but really, all I wanted was for my bird to go in a cage so I would not be late for work. It meant I would have to add extra tape to his doors, but it was still what I wanted to happen. So I stood calmly for a moment and talked to him in loving tones until he stopped displaying. Then I cautiously opened up the cage and removed Seraph. Immediately, he settled down, went inside and began to eat his breakfast. He even gave me a kiss through the bars. Problem solved - I got my bird in a cage so I could go to work and he got the cage he wanted. Even thoughi it wasn't the ideal interaction, I consider it a win for both of us. There's much I can do next time to be aware and better prepared so he doesn't have to display to get what he wants.

 

Good luck! Just be willing to let him move at his own pace and eventually, I think you can help Larry feel comfortable with you.

[Jayd]

Thank you zandische. What your thread is referring to is "training" I've read and heard these words in dog obedience class, not so with a parrot, let alone a Grey. A dog, Amazon and a Grey all respond to the word no, but each in a different way. A Zon will respond positive if and when it will not get him what he desires, a dog will respond to get what he desires and not scolded, and a Grey, as a human would, asks "Why". Please remember, we don't tame Greys.

Giving a treat to get a reaction is conditioning, this is how we teach a parrot to do a trick or talk on command, not correct a problem. The reason a Grey or any parrot doesn't like there owner is because of some involvement with the owner or a previous owner. I have 2 rescues now from a previous owner who would love to have us for dinner because of what your talking about, responding X, Y action will occur, they responding to actions just as you say, unfortunately it happened for such a long time the best we can ever hope for is to supply them with a safe and warm environment. .Here's a thread you might be interested in regarding this very matter. Thank you, but I don't agree with most points of this method.....http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?198836-Do-You-Teach-or-Train&p=282611#post282611

[zandische]

Well Jay, I can appreciate that you disagree and I always value your opinions, but I would disagree that problem behaviors are completely separate from tricks and talking...for the most part they are all, in my opinion, learned behaviors. This method is very well known in the bird world, popularized most notably by Barbara Heidenreich. "No" does not work with my bird, never has. The idea of using positive reinforcement does involve conditioning because you are rewarding good behaviors so they don't develop bad ones. I think we could all agree that positive reinforcement is a good thing...The key difference is that you aren't just waiting around for a good behavior to magically happen, you are taking an active role in showing the bird what you want to happen in a way that makes it beneficial for both, and the goal is to try to make every interaction a positive one (a reward doesn't just have to be food either) so that bad behaviors simply don't happen. You have to start somewhere to build trust with a bird that has none and training provides a consistent focus both both human and bird, which leads to a sense of security. I guess I fail to see how this is a bad thing...this method has been a lifesaver for me and my bird and has actually created a deeper bond between us because of the trust we've developed. Anyway, we can disagree of course, respectfully and without biting Having multiple options to try will help the OP find the best method for their situation.

[Jayd]

Lately I don't seem to explain myself clearly, We never use No to any of our parrot, it was just a reference to the different ways each creature interprets a word. There's no need to wait around, it's done in the normal routine of each day, it's done not planed, there's no training session. I've never explained how we teach or even live with our fids, maybe some day I will. To train is to condition, to teach is to give, we reward with words and praise, there's no set time, it just happens through out the course of the day. Opinions I love, especially from aware people like yourself, but I feel and I know I'm right though no one will admit it, we spend to much time listening to people who have a piece of paper saying they "Know" what there talking about then listening to the voice of experience first hand and otherwise gained knowledge. Take what you learn and apply it, take what you read and blend it with what you've seen and experienced yourself, and use it, don't follow someone verbatim, you and other members are so wise and smart and creative, apply what you think is right, gained, with your knowledge and the knowledge others you trust has shown you....I don't hear you talking, I hear a book that I can go down and by talking, written by some one who read it somewhere else who maybe never owned a Grey. Come-on, if nothing else this forum has taught each and every one of you how to think and know whats right or wrong.....Sorry, I guess I appreciate you brain more than you do.......Do I need a expert, ya, I have Dave, Dan, Greywings, etc etc, etc, and all you other extremely intelligent members, my cup runneth over, don't ever stop filling it..................................

Edited April 19, 2013 by Jayd

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

TRUST, RESPECT, LOVE and TRAIN. This is what we do for our birds. This is what they want. Training is NOT reconditioning , its about teaching our birds what behavior that is acceptable, and which is not. Nancy