trancework Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Ears!!!! [ATTACH]23749[/ATTACH] I've been a member of the Bite-Me club most of my life. This one is pretty useful--I caution anyone else against trying my methods--I'm a trained idiot with A LOT of experience. A bit about my background, I race superbikes as a hobby. Translation: I regularly CRASH superbikes and when I do, I use training that enables me to relax my entire body on command to minimize pain and injury. When you're bouncing down the asphalt at 80 mph with a 450 lb motorcycle behind you, best thing you can do is go to your happy place, zen out and let whatever happens happen. I've shouldered birds successfully for 20+ years. I use my left shoulder--I'm blind in my left eye, which makes it even weirder as I cannot actually see the bird. It's all kind of a tuned-in thing--I can read the bird by foot position, pressure, and even heat--my avatar is Ollie perched on one foot on my collar bone dead asleep. This wasn't an actual bite. It began as exploratory nibbles, and escalated because I believe Ollie was trying to hook me up with some sweet allopreening. Based on how it felt in his mouth, the case was ready to come off of that ear-feather! When he did it, I relaxed... It was kind of a rush, really. Let my shoulder drop a bit then I arced my right hand over and around his top beak and opened the hook a bit and got him off the ear--nothing said. Ok, done--Right? Uh, not so fast. Blood was drawn... and I think the appearance of this shiny red stuff made it even more interesting and enticing. Ollie was on a mission to finish preening that darn ear! Each time I put him back up, it was a trip to get back to that incredibly interesting task! And casually, I'd repeat my response. This went on for a while until my ears were irresistible. And I'd shoulder-grounded him. Awesome! Now, the stage was set for some bird learning!!! I've been working with Ollie on optional and immediate commands. The vast majority of the commands I give are optional, I use infinitive verbs and cued with "to", e.g. "Would you like to step up?" or "Would you like to try some fruit?" I've been peppering in training on imperative commands. These are cued with "Now"or some other sharp words [more later]. "Step up, Now" -- these are for cases where he doesn't have a choice. He's been doing very well with these, amazingly well, really. No shoulder for a few days--to let the swelling go down on my ear, and let him know he doesn't own the shoulder, he has to be welcomed. I also began "low-holding" him, so that were he on my finger, he'd be hip-level, rather than chest or above. When I again welcomed him back to my shoulder, any engagement with the ear was met with a shocking "HUUUUPPPTTT" and a tensing of the shoulder with a tensing of my neck and a shake of the ear accompanied by [and DO NOT TRY THIS--SERIOUSLY] a very fast hand motion to the beak for separation resulting in a contact near the limit of comfort, as I judge it. NOTE: Since I've had Ollie, I've been "fast hand motion" training him such that I can VERY QUICKLY swipe my hand open or closed incredibly close to him, even touching him but it's all within the boundary of trust. So it's not anywhere near a hit, but if you saw it you'd be like--WTH did you just do?!?!? The "HUUUPPPTT" is LOUD. Kerri was walking past once when he did it and I had to react THEN to reenforce the message. She was like "OW, that hurt my ears!" I was like "Sorry, had to do it immediately..." Followed by an imperative, "Step down, NOW"--Shoulder privileges revoked. And we move on to something else. It took about two days and he's back to full shoulder privileges. And, counter-intuitively, he seems like a different much improved bird from the middle of last week. His play has been a lot more independent he seems TONS more confident, and our relationship stronger. I belive it's because he's found my limit, and he know's I'll assert swiftly and with measured response, and be cool with everything afterward--a fair trade for a few cuts to the lobe! Respect, bird! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayd Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 (edited) Quote ""fast hand motion" training him such that I can VERY QUICKLY swipe my hand open or closed incredibly close to him, even touching him but it's all within the boundary of trust." Unquote Thank you very much...I'm sorry but I just can't agree with this under any circumstances...Once again, I'm sorry but in my own experience, this technique is just wrong. This is not a matter of adding trust within any boundaries. This is my own personal opinion...Jayd Edited March 26, 2013 by Jayd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trancework Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 Jayd, if you're going to say something--back it up. What I'm talking about is a variation on the "peek-a-boo" game. There's PLENTY of room. The bird's CHOOSING to do it, and he's wander off if he doesn't want to In the former, he's not spooked by a towel. In the latter he's not spooked by my hands. I have never in my life "hit" a bird, even accidentally. So I'm describing my own personal experience--but it's actual experience. Which will likely vary from yours or that of anyone else. I've had the same vet for the past decade and change and we've also boarded there. When I'd come to pick Smokey up, he'd hear my voice and begin communicating with me. He used to do that one the phone--hear my voice and begin contact calling to where Kerri'd put it on speaker. Smokey was a rescue from a bad circumstance. You would never have known it, he was a snuggly bird. Here's Ollie from yesterday, and he's pretty darn confident, comfortable, and secure around my hands... Again, this is my actual experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywings Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I understand this may be working for you and Ollie but it would not be a recommended training method for most Greys. They are a prey animal in the wild and retain that predator avoidance behavior so a very rapid move in their direction is not a way to build trust. Building trust is a very powerful part of living happily and fully with a Grey. Many birds would feel stressed by a rapid hand action such as you have described and am happy for Ollie that he handles your method so calmly most birds would not. Some would panic and some may bite and many people would find they may have damaged the trust bond they had been building. Trust is the basis of most successful relationships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acappella Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I think the key is that you have been doing it since she was a baby, when they are more accepting of things. It's not a method I could use around Dorian. Any fast movement startles him even today, although it doesn't usually prompt a panicked flight or fall to the bottom of the cage the way it did when I first re-homed him. I like your descripition of the different methods of command and how you've trained him to know the difference. It's important to their confidence and sense of autonomy to be able to have some choice over their activities, but it's also important that they obey a demand when they are in danger and moving them is imperative. I do the same thing. He know the difference in my voice between a question "Wanna come with mom?", and an order "Time for bed." That said, he knows the difference, but we're still working on the 100% compliance lol. BTW, I love your avatar. Does he wake up the moment you move? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trancework Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 lol. BTW, I love your avatar. Does he wake up the moment you move? Thanks ! He doesn't normally sleep there. That was a result of him continually choosing not to go to bed. "Want to go to bed?" And I'd put him into the cage by a perch and he'd stay on my hand. I'd go back to doing what I was doing with him on my shoulder. He'd fall asleep--again. Kind of like letting a kid stay up as late has he/she wants . Now he's ready for bed as soon as he starts drowsing. Yesterday, though, with a bee pollen and fresh-fruit sugar rush, I thought he was never going to come down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trancework Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 I understand this may be working for you and Ollie but it would not be a recommended training method for most Greys. They are a prey animal in the wild and retain that predator avoidance behavior so a very rapid move in their direction is not a way to build trust. Building trust is a very powerful part of living happily and fully with a Grey. Many birds would feel stressed by a rapid hand action such as you have described and am happy for Ollie that he handles your method so calmly most birds would not. Some would panic and some may bite and many people would find they may have damaged the trust bond they had been building. Trust is the basis of most successful relationships. Agreed... he's not particularly comfortable with fast-moving strangers, nor do I let anyone "touch" him who he doesn't know. In the wild, these guys are literally surrounded by hundreds of incredibly close, fast moving things--the wings of other birds. I imagine, in the flap, they tend to get bumped a bit or at least crowded.... Everything comes down to circumstance, experience, and context. Basically, if something seems to spook your bird--don't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danmcq Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Basically, if something seems to spook your bird--don't do it. I totally agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayd Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Jayd, if you're going to say something--back it up. What would you like me to back up? You made the statements, I didn't.What I'm talking about is a variation on the "peek-a-boo" game. What yor saying here isn't the same as which I replied too. There's PLENTY of room. The bird's CHOOSING to do it, and he's wander off if he doesn't want to In the former, he's not spooked by a towel. In the latter he's not spooked by my hands. I have never in my life "hit" a bird, [TWICE IN ORIGINAL THREAD:1. even touching him , 2. hand motion to the beak for separation resulting in a contact near the limit of comfort,] even accidentally. So I'm describing my own personal experience--but it's actual experience. Which will likely vary from yours or that of anyone else.What your saying here isn't the same as which I replied too. I've had the same vet for the past decade and change and we've also boarded there. When I'd come to pick Smokey up, he'd hear my voice and begin communicating with me. He used to do that one the phone--hear my voice and begin contact calling to where Kerri'd put it on speaker. Smokey was a rescue from a bad circumstance. You would never have known it, he was a snuggly bird. Here's Ollie from yesterday, and he's pretty darn confident, comfortable, and secure around my hands... Again, this is my actual experience. Please feel free to do as you wish with your parrot,please feel free to have your own opinion's. in this instance I don't condone your method's, but that's a choice we each have....Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trancework Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 Please feel free to do as you wish with your parrot,please feel free to have your own opinion's. in this instance I don't condone your method's, but that's a choice we each have....Jay So by insinuation, you're passively aggressively asserting that I hit my bird. Gotcha. Facepalm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judygram Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Quote ""fast hand motion" training him such that I can VERY QUICKLY swipe my hand open or closed incredibly close to him, even touching him but it's all within the boundary of trust." Unquote Thank you very much...I'm sorry but I just can't agree with this under any circumstances...Once again, I'm sorry but in my own experience, this technique is just wrong. This is not a matter of adding trust within any boundaries. This is my own personal opinion...Jayd I have to agree with Jay on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judygram Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Please feel free to do as you wish with your parrot,please feel free to have your own opinion's. in this instance I don't condone your method's, but that's a choice we each have....Jay Trancework, this method may work with your parrot and that is the exception to the rule but your methods are not what we would tell other grey owners to try, corporal punishment just doesn't work for greys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judygram Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 So by insinuation, you're passively aggressively asserting that I hit my bird. Gotcha. Facepalm. No one is saying you are hitting your bird but your methods of getting your grey to behave is questionable in our opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trancework Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 OK.... I think I see the disconnect here. MY HAND IS NOT MOVING WHEN I TOUCH THE BIRD. There's a difference between my hand reaching you quickly -- AND BEING STOPPED at the point of contact. And my hand still being in motion. When I touch my bird--My hand is NO LONGER MOVING. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trancework Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 And, no, I do not corporally punish my bird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayd Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Sir, maybe we should move on from this thread. Thank you Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judygram Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Sir, maybe we should move on from this thread. Thank you Jay Sounds like a great idea Jay and if necessary it will be locked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trancework Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 Sir, maybe we should move on from this thread. Thank you Jay Thanks, feel free to... There's tons of links on this page alone, and an entire internet for available for your amazement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Thank you for locking this thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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