Sarasota Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I was helping a friend write an adoption contract for a dog she is fostering, and searched for some parrot contracts to use as a boiler plate. Interestingly, I came across several contracts that required the adopted bird to remain wing clipped at all times. Without opening the heated debate of wing clipping (which I am sure will be unavoidable), what do you think about this? To me, I think the decision to clip or not depends on the individual bird, the home situation and the overall quality of life for the animal. All my birds are fully flighted, which does present a lot of challenges in the home that not everyone is able to meet (no critique intended, I'm totally unqualified to have an Indian Hornbill in my house - and that's the way some people feel with an active home and an unclipped parrot). Do you think the decision of clipping or not should belong to the rescue group, or even in a breeder's contract? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayd Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 "Do you think the decision of clipping or not should belong to the rescue group, or even in a breeder's contract?" NO !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I think it should be up to the person. But with that said I think they need to be educated on both the pros and cons of both clipping and not clipping so they can make an educated choice. I know that it's just wishful thinking but it's my 2cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murfchck Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 NO! Who should be allowed to choose is the new family. How can a breeder or rescue organization even say that? A rescue group who says you "must keep your bird clipped" for the rest of their life does not have the birds well being in mind. Birds and flying go together like peanut butter and bananna sandwhiches, meaning they go together but are not right for everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judygram Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Thats ludicrous, it has no place in any group's contract and if it is then I would run in the opposite direction! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistyparrot Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 NO!:mad: Would such a contract even be enforceable? However I would expect an adopted bird to be chipped. Steve n Misty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbersmom Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I've seen a site with the opposite, you have to keep the bird unclipped. I don't think they should be able to "legislate" that for the individual either way. I can understand the principle behind it, that people need to be educated and aware of all the dangers etc. and have their home prepared for their choice. The vet told me she was going to give Timber a light clip when I took him in for the initial visit and I didn't have any background or knowledge to make that decision. In hindsight, I think it was the right choice, because I couldn't handle him without a towel and I have 4 free roaming cats. Now that I can handle him and I'm more educated, I feel more qualified to make that decision for myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aw64 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 This should never be forced on any one, wonder what our birds would type on here...............Alfie says you can clip my wings when you agree to have your legs removed from the knees down............Think about it......... but saying that does not mean I would knock anyone who does have it done because somtimes I understand needs must but I would never be forced into this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbersmom Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Reminds me though that many times breeders and rescues require that you spay or neuter a dog or cat you get there. I'm actually all for that, but the taking away of choice is similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarasota Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 I don't want to point anyone out (in fact, I don't personally know the rescues - I just did a global internet search for "Parrot Adoption Contract") - but they are online. Check them out. They also have provisions for having toys, keeping cages clean, hiring an expert if the bird has a behavior you don't like/can't change the biting, screaming, etc. I don't remember it being in Burt's contract. I'm pretty sure it's not because it would have caught my attention. The contract isn't actually legally enforceable. BUT, an organization can claim that it is and reclaim a bird for being free flighted if the owner didn't know any better. Oh! One rescue had a provision that you could not make any money off the bird (separate from breeding or selling). Huh? If I got a rescue bird and decided to train it for presentations and/or write a book about it - I would imagine that to be my right. And profit from it. The stringent regulations for adoption are there for a reason. To insure the animal goes to the correct home, it won't be bounced to another, be mistreated and have a good quality of life. I wholeheartedly agree. But I wonder if some aren't taking it a bit too far...and turning off/away potential good homes. And now I DO wonder if any breeders are using wing clipping in their contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywings Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Over breeding is very different than a wing clip. So many dogs, cats ect. are put down every year due to lack of placement but a wing clip should be a choice. Even birds with clipped wings have been lost on a windy day or taken by predators. I am unclear what the basis is for maintaining clipped wings in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarasota Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Here are a few examples: I will not intentionally allow my bird to become flighted and will make every effort to keep his/her wing feathers clipped. and Adopter will NOT release the Bird into the wild and will take all appropriate measures to prevent the escape of the Bird to include keeping the Bird’s wings clipped sufficient to prevent flight. And here is one where the decision is left to the Adopter...with warnings: I understand that it is my choice as to whether I clip the bird’s wings or not. There are pro’s and con’s to clipping or not clipping and I will make the most informed decision possible based on my research. I do understand that just because a bird has clipped wings DOES NOT MEAN he can’t fly. I agree to ALWAYS have the bird in a carrier or on a leash if moving him into an outside environment. And just to inject a little bit of levity - my personal favorite. We cannot guarantee that the bird will not bite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvparrots Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 When I got my first grey, Ana Grey, I asked that she not be clipped. Well the breeder did it anyway. Ana Grey was her bird not mine. The breeder's fear (am sure) was that Ana Grey would fly away as I was a new parrot owner and didn't know any better. The breeder would not take any money until she had met me. I will say that Ana Grey was well loved and is fearless thanks to her loving breeder. Would I have signed a contract saying I would not clip my new companion? No, I could not honestly do that... because once she was mine it was then my choice. Would I never clip my birds? I can't guarantee that because things change... so I never say never. I do have my three parrots microchipped as I do fear greatly that they will venture outdoors without me. It is my biggest fear - That one or all will get out the door and fly around in the amazing excitement and when they land wonder why "mama" doesn't come get them now because - I'm tired and hungry and Mama always takes care of us. Where is she! Back to the topic. You can put anything you want in a contract..... you just have to get someone/other party to sign it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave007 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Reminds me though that many times breeders and rescues require that you spay or neuter a dog or cat you get there. I'm actually all for that, but the taking away of choice is similar. You 're wrong about that. Only rescue and adoption centers are required to neuter dogs and cats, not breeders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarasota Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Luvparrots, you didn't stray. That is the topic! Our personal experiences color the way we feel about these sorts of things. Personally, I love to hear these stories. There's a lot in the contracts that are great - but, again, how can they be reinforced? Some of them insist that you include pellets and/or seed in a diet. More top topic issues with a lot of people. Many people don't feed pellets at all. My ex-vet (she retired) gave me a contract for my bird that stated I would feed my bird ONLY Roudyboush. And I don't mean, just as a pellet, she insisted that be the ONLY ITEM in my bird's diet. No veggies, no fruit. Nothing. I signed away, went home and gave my very happy parrot a bowl of veggie, grain and bean mash! Therefore, I broke the contract. In theory, she could have removed the bird from my home as there was a 90 grace period. Obviously, it didn't happen. I think Judy stated it very eloquently: it's a ludicrous thing to put in a contract as a condition of adoption, and even more ludicrous to enforce! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvparrots Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 The difference is that I would not sign a contract and than break my word. The breeder met me and apparently liked me and decided I would be an okay parront. She knew I would let the wings grow out, I would not be dishonest about that. We talked to each other quite a bit before I purchased Ana Grey and for about 2 years afterwards. She talked about clipping and I talked about how much Ana Grey loved to fly and zoom through the house. She really loved her babies and knew so did I love Ana Grey. Personal choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarasota Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 The difference is that I would not sign a contract and than break my word. The breeder met me and apparently liked me and decided I would be an okay parront. She knew I would let the wings grow out, I would not be dishonest about that. We talked to each other quite a bit before I purchased Ana Grey and for about 2 years afterwards. She talked about clipping and I talked about how much Ana Grey loved to fly and zoom through the house. She really loved her babies and knew so did I love Ana Grey. Personal choices. Would you have broken the contract if she told you to feed the bird pellets only? Nothing else? I told my vet I disagreed and she told me if I wanted the bird I had to sign. So I did. I'm pretty sure she let him go knowing I wasn't going to feed only pellets. BTW, the contracts aren't binding. I've worked in law offices on and off for 15 years - they are pretty meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvparrots Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I said I would try to have the breeder see my point and I would not have signed the contract but walk away if the breeder would not let me purchase the bird without such a contract. Remember, we both really believe in the same thing. And I worked in a legal office for over 20 years but that too is beside the point. So truce and let's keep your thread on track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingy Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 (edited) You 're wrong about that. Only rescue and adoption centers are required to neuter dogs and cats, not breeders. That isn't always true. I was looking to purchase a pure breed collie puppy that was not show quality and every breeder I spoke with either had the spay/neuter done before the puppy went home or required it be done shortly after. Rescues/shelters throw all kinds of stuff into the contract. I have seen some bizarre ones for adopting dogs and birds. Monthly home visits, married couples only, requiring one of the new owners be home 24/7, requiring the use of a certain brand of food, minimum square footage of a home, references from neighbors/vet/employer, no children requirement, and the most bizarre one requiring a life insurance policy on the adoptor (s) with the rescue as the beneficiary. Edited October 4, 2012 by Wingy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarasota Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 So truce and let's keep your thread on track. It wasn't argument, it was a question out of curiosity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywings Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 We adopted a retired champion IG from a breeder and his being neutered was part of the deal. As it was when we adopted 2 Irish Wolfhounds many years ago from a breeder-one dog had a bad hip and the other was an older girl. Either way I wouldn't clip even with a contract but would prefer to be honest about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbersmom Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 You 're wrong about that. Only rescue and adoption centers are required to neuter dogs and cats, not breeders. What I meant was that when I bought a cat from a breeder, I had to sign a paper saying I would have him fixed and not breed him. Maybe it was just that particular one, but that is my only experience! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinner Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 This is one more reason to once again reiterate that African Greys are not like dogs or cats, and the adoption requirements applied to them don't usually apply to birds - too many sellers search the net for breeder contracts and find a dog or cat contract to use. Birds aren't like other pets! I want to clarify a few things from a breeder's perspective: Breeder contracts are enforceable, and I do enforce my contracts - legally. You signed it, you are bound by it. Period. While I disagree with clipping except for clear medical reasons, it is appropriate for a rescue to require clipped wings. I have seen data that says over 40% of rescue birds are those that have escaped from their owners (whether accidentally or deliberate is another discussion). So they are quite justified and right from their perspectives that a solution to the rescue population is to require clipping, and to contractually require it. Yes, it is enforceable. Is it enforced? Not likely. If you find a contract stating some requirement you don't like, either renegotiate the contract or walk away. Don't assume it's unenforceable or it that is doesn't really apply - it is enforceable and it does apply. Remember that most contracts contain verbage to legally protect the contract writer, financially or otherwise. It is my opinion that new-owner contracts also contain verbage to protect the bird. Requiring clipping doesn't fall under that category. My opinions, observations, and experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayd Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 When we bred parrots [not Greys] and re-homed rescue or re-homed parrots, we had no contract, we would invite the prospective buyer over to view the bird specie they wanted, at this time they were given a packet of papers about diets, needs, all we could find about the chosen parrot, they would sign a slip on there net visit saying they read the material. From that point on, we would decide whom we would sell a parrot to.............What right do we have to impose our ego onto another,s inalienable rights? Bird contracts are not legal in all states and what kind of breeder would Enforce their contract unless harm was being done to a parrot? This is the same as "My car is faster then your car" power, ego, nothing more, a key point, financially gains, "I know whats right, you don't", and all dogs bite......Quote:My [Our] opinions, observations, and experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kins2321@yahoo.com Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Jayd...your contract was private, not thru a breeder. If a breeder, or rescue organization asks you to sign a contract, to clip, it can't POSSIBLY be binding, if you found yourself in court. The reason being, you could go to court, have your bird fly everywhere, show how beautiful they are. If a jury see's a happy well adjusted bird... who are they going to vote for? The bird of coarse! In all fairness to rescue organizations, and many breeders... they see alot of birds rescued found in the wild, but tamed. They have escaped their owners. i can understand their arguement as well. I can see both sides, because I clipped, ( I call it trimmed!), and had everyone learn to fly. nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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