Biting question

[TeriG]

I have a question about my 25yr old grey that I recently adopted. I have had him a week now and I understand that it takes a while to build trust with a bird. When I first brought him home, he would step up to me from his cage. I would hold him for a few minutes and during that time he would look around, but seemed nervous. I wouldn't venture far from his cage cause I know that would scare him. He was fine for the first 4 days or so. Since then, if I ask him to step up he will bite pretty hard and beep. He has drawn blood now a couple times. I tell him no bite and walk away. As soon as I do he will start whistling to me. Now I don't want to even try to pick him up because I'm tired of getting bit. My poor finger has so many bites!

 

Originally I was going to train him so that if he wanted out of his cage he had to step up. But since he was just getting used to us and the new house I figured I would let him come out on his own through the small flip down door at the top of his cage. And have him step up to come through the main door of the cage. I don't want to push training on him when he's still getting to know us, but I also don't want him to think it's ok to bite. I think he really wants to trust me. When he sees me he will chirp real cute and gets in this strange position that everyone says is a "mating" thing. I can rub his foot and leg and the side of his wing through the cage when he's in that "mating" position.

 

I don't know about body language yet with him. I will sit by his cage when he is on his door and he will move all the way to the edge of the door and hold his wings out slightly and lean down like he wants to join me, but then he acts like he will bite. He just has me so confused! I know it will take time. It just hurts my feelings when he bites. I love him so much, but I don't think he knows it.

 

Any advice would be great. Thanks in advanced!

[CLB]

The one thing I can assure you is that he will break your heart, probably more than once. BUT....don't take it personally. He has been with you a VERY short while in Grey time. I know others will have more info as well.

[danmcq]

At 25, a week is nothing. Even for a young grey a week is nothing in a new home. The first few days are called the honeymoon and it's over now. He is in all new surroundings with all new people, sights and sounds. Many Greys when older will decide if they wish to step up to get out of the cage or if they wish to come out on their own. I have no clue why they are like this, but they are. If you insist on a step up and you don't see that foot lift a little, forget it or you will get bit. He really sounds like he likes you a lot from the description you have given of how he acts towards you. Just give him his space and time and He will come to you when he wishes and you will know by watching and learning his body language.

 

Right now the most important mode for you to be in is observance mode, just as he is. He does not know your body language or you either and you both need to learn it to communicate effectively.

[TeriG]

At 25, a week is nothing. Even for a young grey a week is nothing in a new home. The first few days are called the honeymoon and it's over now. He is in all new surroundings with all new people, sights and sounds. Many Greys when older will decide if they wish to step up to get out of the cage or if they wish to come out on their own. I have no clue why they are like this, but they are. If you insist on a step up and you don't see that foot lift a little, forget it or you will get bit. He really sounds like he likes you a lot from the description you have given of how he acts towards you. Just give him his space and time and He will come to you when he wishes and you will know by watching and learning his body language.

 

Right now the most important mode for you to be in is observance mode, just as he is. He does not know your body language or you either and you both need to learn it to communicate effectively.

 

It's funny you mention the honeymoon. That's exactly how I felt. Like the honeymoon is over.

How do you know what their body language is saying. He will act happy and excited when he sees me. And he will act the same way when he wants to come out. But he won't come to me. He will bite. I know his look when he wants what I'm eating or drinking. And he takes food and treats from me very nicely. Everyone has mentioned the eye pinning. The only time I have seen his eyes pinning is when he is eating something he really likes. They will pin like crazy. But when he goes to bite me, they are normal.

[Morana]

. Since then, if I ask him to step up he will bite pretty hard and beep. He has drawn blood now a couple times. I tell him no bite and walk away. As soon as I do he will start whistling to me. Now I don't want to even try to pick him up because I'm tired of getting bit.

 

First of all, congratulation on a new friend! :-)

 

Second..To me, it sounds like he has already begun training you. You say he bits you and then you walk away. It seems like he bites you because he doesn't want to step up. Differently put, he wants you to leave him alone at that particular moment, which you obviously do. So, I think he just trained (is training you) you not to pick him up;-)

 

He'll get around but be patient and respect his comfort zone. When he bites you you are way out of it IMHO.

Good luck! :-)

[danmcq]

How do you know what their body language is saying. He will act happy and excited when he sees me. And he will act the same way when he wants to come out. But he won't come to me. He will bite. I know his look when he wants what I'm eating or drinking. And he takes food and treats from me very nicely. Everyone has mentioned the eye pinning. The only time I have seen his eyes pinning is when he is eating something he really likes. They will pin like crazy. But when he goes to bite me, they are normal.

 

Eye pinning can be a good indicator sometimes, but greys are the masters of illusion and can bite you quicker than a snake and give no body language at all. As I mentioned, the best indicator, is if you do not see that foot come up, don't try for a step up. I can guarantee you he is indeed happy to see you, loves his treats etc. But, that does not mean he wants to step up. He will let you know when he wishes to step up by lifting a foot or he will climb to you and maneuver himself on to your arm or other body area himself.

 

One thing I watch for in my Grey Dayo, is if that foot only lifts a 1/4 or 1/2 inch, he is only that percentage into "Thinking" about stepping up. I must watch him very carefully as I move my arm or hand toward him to see if he is going to truly step up or not and if I see that foot drop I quickly remove my appendage from his reach. If he is truly committed to a step up, that foot is up at least half his body length and sometimes almost touching his beak.

 

You will only learn these small signs over time.

[Timbersmom]

I have recently been through the same situation. I rehomed my TAG, Timber, in early June. Like you, the first day and second day he stepped up when I asked him too. After that, he bit me every time I tried. With Timber, it was a matter of him deciding he could trust me and it took a few weeks. I've posted here several times about this and don't want to repeat myself. As Dan said, the honeymoon is over. That doesn't mean that things won't get better though. I stopped trying to get him to step up. I started working on getting him to trust me and realize I wasn't going to hurt him and just let him adjust to us and his new environment. I kept up the scratching through the cage and let him come out when he wanted too. Then I started touching his beak (quickly) or his feet so he would be used to my hands and know I wasn't going to hurt him. this probably went on for a month or more. The day finally came when he let me pet him (dropped his head) but he was still leery so that was slow going too. Now, he lets me pet him and give him scratches pretty much any time, and the last couple of weeks he has started stepping up. As someone on the forums told me, make sure the step up experience is taking them somewhere they want to go. If it gets a negative connotation they are more and more unlikely to do it. So, I try to take him somewhere he wants to go rather than just making him step up for the sake of obedience.

[TeriG]

Thanks Timbersmom. I'm glad everything is working out for you. I hope it works out for me too. I'm going to just take it real slow. I'll continue rubbing his feet and legs and hopefully he will learn to trust and let me pet him more.

[Timbersmom]

I think it will work. Your bird sounds like Timber when you mentioned that he acts like he wants to be with you. I always thought Timber looked at me with longing but just couldn't bring himself to trust me. Turns out, I was right. From everything else I've read here, most of them are just slow to adjust and slow to trust because of their cautious nature, but they get there! I can commiserate, because a couple of times I was close to tears (and I'm not a crier) thinking we were never going to make any progress. Not to mention being brought to tears by bleeding wounds

[Sarasota]

One thing I watch for in my Grey Dayo, is if that foot only lifts a 1/4 or 1/2 inch, he is only that percentage into "Thinking" about stepping up. I must watch him very carefully as I move my arm or hand toward him to see if he is going to truly step up or not and if I see that foot drop I quickly remove my appendage from his reach.

 

Dan...OH YES. My Sondheim is the Master of the semi-step up-bite. I ask him if he would like to step up, he offers one foot very gingerly, steps up with one foot....and WHAM! It took me some time...but I got it now. I just walk away.

 

I'm so sorry about the bites. As much as we try not to let them get to us emotionally...they do.

 

Everyone has already mentioned the honeymoon period. Pretty standard. I don't know if I missed it, but is he stick trained? If so, you may want to stick with that for now and save your fingers. Also, ask yourself if the bird really needs to step up. By that I mean, is it time to go back into the cage? Move to a new location? My 31 year old TAG will not be touched. I can move him around on a rope ring and move him in and out of the cage with almonds, but no touch. We have a very, strong trusting relationship...but I have to respect his boundaries. If you don't really need to pick him up right now, maybe it's better not to.

[TeriG]

I don't know if he would get on a stick. I have never tried. I haven't had trouble getting him into the cage yet. All I have to do is give him a few seeds (we're in the process of weening him off of seed, so he loves them) and he goes right back in. I was just wanting to hold him and bond a little. I would like him to spend some time on the play stand we bought him, but he seems to be scared of it right now. I have it sitting near his cage so he can see it and hopefully he'll get used to it. Any suggestions for getting him used to it?

[Sarasota]

I have it sitting near his cage so he can see it and hopefully he'll get used to it.

 

Keep it in view so he gets adjusted to it. If he does get on it, praise lavishly and give treats (hold some of those seeds for "extra good work"). I don't give Burt seeds in his regular diet - I hold them all back for training.

[TeriG]

I'll do that. I'm hoping to ween him off seed completely too. He is eating his Harrison's pellets pretty good, but I'm having trouble getting him to eat fresh fruits and veggies. He's never had them before. And I'm only giving a little less than 1/4 cup seed a day right now. I'll slowly give less and less. He LOVES sunflower seed and I use that for good behavior.

 

I guess I should attach a perch (maybe rope) from his cage to the play stand so he can go over to it if he wants to. He isn't clipped (at least he doesn't look clipped) but he doesn't know how to fly. I honestly don't think he has ever been clipped, but I have never seen him fly. He will flutter down to the floor, but that's it. He does have a few longer wing feathers on his left side that he doesn't have on his right side. I like that he has never been clipped, but I don't know how crazy it would be if he learned how to fly.

[Timbersmom]

That's a good point Sara, you need to consider the reasons why you want him to step up. I say this because as a new bird owner I had some pretty unrealistic (and a few bizarre) ideas about what owning a bird would be. Some of the info and videos online had me thinking I should be training him to step from finger to finger all the time and teaching him tricks. While I'm not saying there is anything wrong with training a bird to do things, my reality is a little different. Your bird needs to step up for emergency situations, when you must move them, etc., but that is pretty rare for me. Timber comes out of his cage when he wants to come out, and we have a bedtime routine which involves him going in under his own steam, not via a step up. My non-emergency reasons for having him step up are just to spend more time with me. I really let him choose that. For example, I tell him I am going to the living room and say "wanna come?" If he does want to he will move toward me and step up, if he doesn't want to he goes in his cage. Most of the time, he wants to go now. I learned from someone here (it was Sara I think) that rehomed/rescue birds can have a bad association with the "step up" command word so I avoid that because it wasn't working well with Timber. I want Timber to be a companion, not a trick bird. I suppose it goes to expectations, as well as what you and your bird enjoy. They do need to be mentally stimulated, and I'd say games and training would do that. When we get a little farther down the road I may introduce some training, but for now we are still finding our way!

[Sarasota]

That's a good point Sara, you need to consider the reasons why you want him to step up.

 

Oh good! I'm typing at work - super rushed and busy - and sometimes I just don't make any sense. It's something I feel strongly about - respecting boundaries set by the bird such as when they want to be held and touched. We set boundaries as far as caging, what rooms they can go in, etc.

 

Here's something to try: Hold a video camera and talk to it like you talk to your bird. Keep it the same distance from your face, etc. Move the same, drop your arm the same, same pace with hands, etc. You will really get a chance to get a "bird's eye view" (sorry for the pun) of what your bird sees. Also, video tape interactions with your bird and just watch the bird's body language. It's so helpful in seeing things clearer.

 

The entertainment business is exploding! Back to work. Hope some of this makes sense. I'll probably read it later and cringe.

[TeriG]

It makes sense! The last thing I want to do is overstep his boundaries. Of course I would love for him to want to hang out with me. I know that will take time. But of course I do want to be able to get him in case of an emergency (like for the hurricane that was headed our way )

[Timbersmom]

Teri, I'm still keeping a bath towel in Timber's room in case of a real emergency (fire or the like). Not pretty, but I'd use it if I had to!

[TeriG]

Thank you everyone for the replies. I am super happy right now. Last night I was sitting next to Virgil's cage and talking to him. He came out onto the door and slid down to the bottom. Then he decided to climb onto my leg. I didn't know what to do at that point. I didn't know if he was going to bite or what. So I slowly put my hand in front of him and he kind of bump it with his beak and then put his beak down on my leg and let me rub his neck! I was so shocked!! If I stopped, he would bump me again and put his head back down wanting more. Then he grabbed my hand with his foot and kind of mouthed my fingers. A couple of times he acted like he was going to regurgitate, but nothing came up. Then after about 10 minutes, he looked back up at his cage. I asked him if he wanted to go back and he climbed right up onto my hand and I put him back on his cage. I hope this is the start of him trusting me. I went to bed last night feeling so much better!

[Timbersmom]

That's great! I'm so happy for you. Moments like that make all the struggles and waiting worthwhile. Slow and steady wins the day (usually anyway). If he's asking for scratches I'd think he is definitely starting to trust you. I was thinking the other day when I was scratching around Timber's neck that it takes a lot of trust for them to expose their fragile neck to your large (in relation) hand. Good going!

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

TeriG... PERFECT picture of listening to your bird. He looked at his cage, you understood his need and satisfyed it. A GREAT start to developing a trusting relationship. Nancy

[judygram]

Teri you are doing great and that one instance is one small step on the road to trusting you so savor the moment and take them as they come, do not push for more than he is willing to give and you will be rewarded, I see a bright future for you two if you are patient.

[chezron]

From what I have experienced, what Dan said is right on, but I have never had a sneaky bird like Sondheim. Wait until your bird lefts his foot and that will definitely tell you he wants to be picked up. If he reacts to your step up offer with a fast head bow, he definitely DOES NOT want to be picked up. Doing so, will most certainly result in a bite. I have become much better with time at reading his face and body language. For example, when Brutus gets a "far-away" look he is up to no good. I can tell now, even though his face, as are all greys, looks basically expressionless, what he is thinking of doing. So I think it is a learning and trust building time for you both. You will often see progress, and then regression, but your relationship will slowly move to a better place.

[Timbersmom]

^^ Yes. Don't be discouraged if you see some regression. Sometimes it seems like one step forward and two steps back, but you are actually making forward progress regardless. Timber bit me this morning for seemingly no reason (I'm sure he had a reason, but I don't know it). First time in 6 weeks or so. As others on the forum say, sometimes it seems to come out of nowhere when you think you are past it. He didn't latch on and go for bone, but I did shed a little blood. I just said "no bite" and walked away. We'll see how the rest of the day goes!

[TeriG]

Sorry to hear about the bite Karen. Hope the rest of the day goes better for you. I will try not to let it get to me if there is any regression. Last night he came to me again for a couple scratches, but he didn't want to stay as long. We'll just take it slow. At least I know he likes me. We need to work on my husband though. Every time he gets close to the cage, he fluffs up and beeps his alarm. Last night we were covering his cage and if he could have, I think he would have attacked him. He had to walk away and I had to calm him down. Baby steps I guess. Thanks you guys gor all your advice!

[Timbersmom]

It's early days yet with your hubby. Our situation was much the same. The first couple of weeks, Timber would go straight in his cage when Gary came in the room. He would stop and talk to him, even give him treats which he would accept, but his tail feathers were quivering with fear/nervousness. Now, while Gary isn't able to scratch him or get a step up, Timber doesn't flee at the sight of him and doesn't get upset when he is around. Just this morning, Gary said Timber said "Hi" to him when he came downstairs. My point being, it just takes time in most cases. Others may have more advice on how your husband can "make friends." You might, for instance, let your husband and him alone give him his most favorite treat. I told Gary he needs to whistle at him and always speak when he goes by.