Need some help from the "Bite Me" club!

[zandische]

So those of you who saw my post over on the Bite Me thread know that I've gone through a pretty rough patch with my 3 year old CAG, Gryphon, over the last 8 months. I take a lot of responsibility for our slow learning curve, but I'm starting to feel at my wits end.

 

Gryph is not a super snugly bird, but he does love to get his scratches every night and he is nearly inseparable from my shoulder. I do not try to force him to have contact with me but keeping him off my shoulder is a chore, (especially because he bites me now if I try to remove him.) For no apparent reason, about 8 months ago he started biting me - at first it seemed to be a form of rebelliousness, so when I would ask him to step up he'd bite, or when I'd try to stop him from getting into something he shouldn't be, he'd bite. Then he began biting my face from his shoulder perch with no warning or provocation. Then I thought it might be hormonal but sometimes it happened for no reason at all. I tried to restrict shoulder time but I wasn't as good about it as I should have been, and our "fights" escalated to the point where he almost got my eye.

 

So I decided to change our interactions around and try to take back some measure of authority, and I began to offer him treat-based rewards for positive interactions. This resulted in a very good 3 months - better than good, actually. I didn't get bitten once, and my bird seemed to actually really like me! We were really progressing toward trust again.

 

But the last two weeks have been miserable. Nothing works, not treats or soft words or lots of practiced step-ups. It's like some kind of lightswitch was thrown, and now he has been somewhat unaffectionately dubbed "Chomper." Monster would be another good name. I have a feeling this is a hormonal thing, because every time I let him out of his cage he makes a bee-line for his sister and does the mating dances with her (this has also been going on for the last year, and we keep trying to keep them separated and distract them during these times, but Gryph just seems driven to keep doing it.) If I take him in a separate room for alone time, he immediately becomes super interested in me and starts doing mating dances to me (which consists of him rolling over on his side and biting my neck or worse, my ear - um, ouch!) So now no more alone time. He has become super aggressive, to the point where I can't even handle him right now. The problem is, he only shows this behavior toward me - not toward my husband or his sister or anyone else who comes over.

 

I didn't think greys got super-aggressive hormonal like Amazons, and I would definitely call his behavior over the top. He even shows the classic anger-display on his toys and cage whenever I come near to "display" to me and warn me of his "mightyness." Is this some kind of confused mating ritual? Or have I done something to royally tick him off and I just don't know it? I am ok giving him his space and all that, but is this eventually going to stop at some point when he gets older?

 

And the other thing I'm worried about...that he has somehow decided he hates me and there is nothing I can do to change that. That seems really odd given the fact that for the first 2.5 years of his life he was really clingy to me, but I feel like if I have somehow become the source of his anger then being in another home might be a better life for the both of us, but the idea of giving up my bird makes me sick to my stomach. I just don't understand why I am the one to bear the brunt of his aggression and I can't see what I'm doing wrong. I wouldn't even care if he didn't want to be "my bird" but I would at least like to be able to pick him up if necessary! I also don't understand why sometimes he acts like a completely sweet and loving bird when I haven't changed anything about how we interact!!!

 

What do you guys think? Can anyone offer any advice or experience on this, I'm seriously at the end of my rope!

[Wulfgeist]

Greys do tend to change favorites I think sometimes. What I've read in books it deals with you being "mommy" as compared to the wild flock. The youngster is docile and pliable because he's learning how to fit in with his flock. When he reaches the age of bird majority he'll shun the parents like a teenager, wanting his freedom and to hang with his peers instead. As far as how to handle it, I couldn't tell you. Jasper is only 9 months and I do sort of dread the day that might come. Hopefully someone can give you some solid advice on how to handle this. Good luck.

[Sarasota]

...but keeping him off my shoulder is a chore, (especially because he bites me now if I try to remove him.) For no apparent reason, about 8 months ago he started biting me - at first it seemed to be a form of rebelliousness, so when I would ask him to step up he'd bite, or when I'd try to stop him from getting into something he shouldn't be, he'd bite. Then he began biting my face from his shoulder perch with no warning or provocation. Then I thought it might be hormonal but sometimes it happened for no reason at all. I tried to restrict shoulder time but I wasn't as good about it as I should have been, and our "fights" escalated to the point where he almost got my eye...I'm seriously at the end of my rope!

 

Number One: No more shoulder. Not right now, at least. I *know* the fight well. I have a CAG that insists on climbing up to my shoulder. Well, he's also going through a stage and a few months ago he gave me quite the nip on my ear. No more. You can't really control what's going on when they are up there. If you don't have a super strong "step up" - no more. At least for the time being.

 

Number Two: The absolute best thing you can do for yourself and your little guy right now it take a HUGE breath....and then do your best to detach yourself from the emotions. This is the hardest thing a parrot owner can do. I struggle with it daily. The parrot isn't being spiteful, etc. They don't even understand the concept. What you have to do right now is deal with the behavior.

 

If you can, try to do some work with the bird inside the cage. Do you do targeting with him? Try to rebuild a bit of the relationship from a "hands off" standpoint. Also, whatever treats he likes best, ONLY YOU give them out for now. Not your husband, just you. When you pass the cage, drop a favorite treat in his feed cup. Reward him for every tiny thing he does that is good. No lunging at the bars? Yay! Treat. You want to build something positive between you and the bird again.

 

I could rattle on and on, but I'm sure you get the idea. It's a long process with a parrot, but SO worth it in the end. Once a bird knows it can trust you - rock solid - there's nothing quite like it.

 

EDIT: Wow. I should never answer a post when I'm tired! Hopefully, some of this makes sense. If not, feel free to PM me. I been exactly where you are right now (and, sometimes, still am). We can talk each other through it!

Edited August 26, 2012 by Sarasota

[birdhouse]

Not all fids go thru obvious hormonal episodes & each occurrence may be different. But Gryphon lives w/Seraph, so he has the added stimulus of always having a female w/in reach. Taking him in another room may momentarily lessen the affects sometimes. But considering that birds can track potential mates from some pretty long distances, there's no escaping the affect they'll have on each other whenever either of them is hormonal.

 

Because no one has ever publish a decent field study, we don't know how adult greys handle adolescents in a wild flock. I bet if they did, we'd find a lot that's generally thought to be going on really isn't. I suspect a lot of generally accepted motives are based on human, species-specific reactions & are in fact, way off w/greys.

 

I also wonder how much adolescent fid rebellion actually results from rejection. When a full tilt hormonal bird is rejected by it's most important & worshiped human(s), it makes sense to me that it may result in a serious dent in their relationship. May be strange to say, but have you tried approaching his behavior like Gryph thinks he "loves" you more, rather than less right now? The way you shut down his behaviors could make a big difference in some of his biting & frustration.

 

There is no training for hormones. There is no logic. It's all primal. You can't blame yourself for not understanding Gryph at the moment any more than you can for not predicting how a bullet might ricochet. You can't blame Gryph for biting any more than you can blame the bullet for how it travels. And it's not Seraph's fault if she's kind of like the smoking gun. Under the circumstances, living w/this temporary insanity (& it is insanity) can be a lot easier if you can honestly accept that.

 

I really believe there's nothing for it but to cope when a hormonal beastie rears its ugly, little head. It seems to me that the only real choice is how to approach it. All shoulder time gets revoked when you have to assume that it can & will go Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde in a flash. Safety takes priority, even though that frustrates them, too. But other than that, lots of leeway & a wide berth. The ultimate "all about you" treatment.

 

Helps me to consciously remind myself (often) that it's not their fault anymore than if they were sick. And the worst of it will be over in a :rolleyes:just:rolleyes: a few weeks. Of course I always look forward to that like the mother of triplets looks forward to the first day of school! But knowing it is temporary does make it easier to get through it.

 

I really do feel your pain & hope things ease up for you both, really, very soon!

[Sarasota]

Because no one has ever publish a decent field study, we don't know how adult greys handle adolescents in a wild flock. I bet if they did, we'd find a lot that's generally thought to be going on really isn't. I suspect a lot of generally accepted motives are based on human, species-specific reactions & are in fact, way off w/greys.

 

Well said! And very frustrating. There's just not enough grant money to get a researcher up in the canopy to study Grey behavior. There's a lot more ground study, but that's mostly based on foraging...and we need the juicy stuff!

 

If it's any consolation at all - toucans are MUCH more difficult to deal with when they are hormonal. True, the smaller ones can't clamp down like a parrot (Tocos, watch out!), but they are close relatives of woodpeckers. They will hammer the heck out of your wrists..and the dogs' eyeballs (if they can get to them).

[chelseaB]

So sorry that Gryph is being such a rebellious boy. I hope it is something he is just going through & you 2 will work through it. Please do as the others have said & get him off your shoulder. Biscotti always had shoulder privileges until he starting getting cocky & one day he reached around and grabbed just below my eye leaving 2 nasty bloody bite marks. I was lucky he didn't get my eye and it sure was an awakening. They can be so fast and you can not risk a bite to your face.

Biscotti is the same age as Gryph ( he turned 3 in June ) and he started his very cocky/independent attitude just before turning 2. Our relationship changed in that he wants to be with me all the time but doesn't want much actual physical contact. He loves his scritches in the evening, but I have to keep it short or he will bite. He steps up good most of the time but wont hesitate to bite if I don't heed his body language that he doesn't want to step up. If I just back off & distract him or do something else then go back for a step up he will usually comply.

They are certainly moody little buggers & I hope you & Gryph can work it out together. I personally don't know what effect having another bird in the picture is doing to him. Hopefully you will hear from some of the others with multiple birds.

But first thing please get him off your shoulder.

[danmcq]

My take on biting, whether a grey, conure, amazon etc., is that they will all bite instinctively at times. I cannot count the number of clutches I watched grow from week 1 to the time they were weaned and ready to go home with their new excited owners. I saw various clutch members nip and bite from very early 5 or 6 weeks old and onwards if another got in their way, was trying to take say a food item or toy from them etc. I had one at just 10 weeks of age flap across the floor one day and just nail me then take off flapping and running across the floor back to it's clutch. No clue why that baby grey decided I needed a good bite, but in it's mind I somehow deserved it.

 

I have seen breeder pairs bite each other at times and some that were put together hoping they would become a pair start tearing each other up, most the time the male would start attacking the female.

 

As grey or other species mature, they become less and less dependent upon us or their actual grey parents. As they do so, they will start claiming their rights, toys, areas etc. and will lash out if anyone intrudes. The baby cuddle muffin you knew in the early first and second year start become more and more independent, standoffish and protective of their space and items/areas they have come to believe as their space and items.

 

I don't know if any of you have greys old enough that if really pissed they well almost produce a hiss sound and bite the living hell out of you and more than once if you don't move your appendage from that zone. This is not that common, but it will happen in places they are protective of and your trying to block or remove them from it.

 

Birds will battle to the death at times in the wild over a tree hole. I have not seen any video of this on greys because nothing basically exists. But, I have seen them of Macaws for example ripping and shredding each other and sometimes completely ripping off the others beak, which of course means certain death. I do not buy in to the idea of parrots "Learn" this behavior from us humans. The beak is the only defense they have other than fleeing through there flight ability.

 

I have seen emotional bites based on jealousy, possessions etc. They have those under lying emotions and when we strike one, we get the results and so do any other parrots that may have induced those emotions as well. How do you prove this scientifically? Just watch how they react under exposure to various circumstances and reactions that clearly indicate an emotion is a play. The "favored one" in the human parrot relationship will eventually find themselves getting bitten as well when the bird is fully mature at times. The less favored ones.... well it happens more often.

 

I can say it shocked my wife when her cuddle muffin dayo started biting her every once in a while as well. Watching it unfold if I happened to be in the room and watching it, there was always an underlying cause/effect. Wife is paying attention to jake the conure, dayo gets jealous, runs over and bites at and scares jake off then turns around and nails my wife for being unfaithful. Wife tries to get a towel from dayo he is presently thrashing, dayo lets go and bites her etc. This has happened as he matured over the years and now he is much more independent, gets a li1tle scratch time with her, the flies off to sit on a tree stand, back of the couch etc. and just chills. The days of full time scratch and cuddle fests that previously existed are long gone. I will say though, that he frets over where she is at all times and if he loses sight of her, he will go flying in search of her. He is totally attached to her, but not as baby, it is fully almost as if a mate in the wild never leaving the side of their mate. They have little battles of will at times, but regardless of that, they are inseparable.

Edited August 29, 2012 by danmcq

[Sarasota]

I don't know if any of you have greys old enough that if really pissed they well almost produce a hiss sound and bite the living hell out of you and more than once if you don't move your appendage from that zone. This is not that common, but it will happen in places they are protective of and your trying to block or remove them from it.

 

I've had a breeder Grey try to take me out, and a Cooper's Hawk. But nothing terrified me more than a barn owl (yes, not a typo) that came after me screaming.

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

I've been thinking... kids off to school,maybe now it would be a good time to pursue going back to school. I'm interested in studying birds. I can't let kids know. They would go crazy and be very supportive. I just want to do it without any pressure. Nancy

[Timbersmom]

Sounds like a plan if you have time Nancy!

[zooman]

Well I can def relate with you, Zuri my TAG turned $ this year and he is def going through same kind of thing, like the others said..breatheee I truly think this will pass as its slowing down with mine, this year has been the rockiest with my TAG and tested my will and patience. The main thing is to be calm as possible and dont lose your cool, as much as you want to. Also agree no shoulder if possible, hes in a power position there.

 

I know how it is, i would go into Zuris room and he'd be puffed up and smashing his bell pinpoint eyes and im like whoaaa sleep o the wrong side of the bed my friend? I would find shredded newspaper piled up in a corner with his down feathers and went hmmm, he also did the "mating dance" but always later in the evening, in the morning it was more why werent you opening this cage 5 mins ago! It progressed to the point i took a horrible bite on my arm where its like he wouldnt let go, ive been bitten before but never like that everrrr, completely out of the blue and unprovoked. I had given him a few mins to calm down and came back talked to him and calmed him down and no eyes no puffed up and even he lifted his foot to say im ready and bammm. As soon as he was out of his room he was an angel all day. the point i said ok enough is enough is when id let him out of his cage in the morning and he go for a bite when id unlock his door and missed, he"d fly to me for a nip and fly to his cage. that was last month. So I took him for a vet exam did all his blood work and clipped him not full but enough to say hey bud your behaviour sucks! you need me and i need you, and now you cant dive bomb me as well. well since i have 3 weeks ago or so, its seen a huge difference, hes calmer although still unsure and grumpy in the morning, i havent been bitten, i know its given me a tad bit more confidence as well, i also recommend before being with him to take a deep breath and calm yourself, i truly feel they sense our emotions and if we are tense so will they. I walk in all cheery which is nottt me in the morning haha but trying to start the day off right.

hope this helps, your not alone, my zuri was and is my best little buddy and ill never give up on him. hes just going through something like yours is.

good luck

[Jayd]

My take on biting, whether a grey, conure, amazon etc., is that they will all bite instinctively at times. I cannot count the number of clutches I watched grow from week 1 to the time they were weaned and ready to go home with their new excited owners. I saw various clutch members nip and bite from very early 5 or 6 weeks old and onwards if another got in their way, was trying to take say a food item or toy from them etc. I had one at just 10 weeks of age flap across the floor one day and just nail me then take off flapping and running across the floor back to it's clutch. No clue why that baby grey decided I needed a good bite, but in it's mind I somehow deserved it.

 

I have seen breeder pairs bite each other at times and some that were put together hoping they would become a pair start tearing each other up, most the time the male would start attacking the female.

 

As grey or other species mature, they become less and less dependent upon us or their actual grey parents. As they do so, they will start claiming their rights, toys, areas etc. and will lash out if anyone intrudes. The baby cuddle muffin you knew in the early first and second year start become more and more independent, standoffish and protective of their space and items/areas they have come to believe as their space and items.

 

I don't know if any of you have greys old enough that if really pissed they well almost produce a hiss sound and bite the living hell out of you and more than once if you don't move your appendage from that zone. This is not that common, but it will happen in places they are protective of and your trying to block or remove them from it.

 

Birds will battle to the death at times in the wild over a tree hole. I have not seen any video of this on greys because nothing basically exists. But, I have seen them of Macaws for example ripping and shredding each other and sometimes completely ripping off the others beak, which of course means certain death. I do not buy in to the idea of parrots "Learn" this behavior from us humans. The beak is the only defense they have other than fleeing through there flight ability.

 

I have seen emotional bites based on jealousy, possessions etc. They have those under lying emotions and when we strike one, we get the results and so do any other parrots that may have induced those emotions as well. How do you prove this scientifically? Just watch how they react under exposure to various circumstances and reactions that clearly indicate an emotion is a play. The "favored one" in the human parrot relationship will eventually find themselves getting bitten as well when the bird is fully mature at times. The less favored ones.... well it happens more often.

 

I can say it shocked my wife when her cuddle muffin dayo started biting her every once in a while as well. Watching it unfold if I happened to be in the room and watching it, there was always an underlying cause/effect. Wife is paying attention to jake the conure, dayo gets jealous, runs over and bites at and scares jake off then turns around and nails my wife for being unfaithful. Wife tries to get a towel from dayo he is presently thrashing, dayo lets go and bites her etc. This has happened as he matured over the years and now he is much more independent, gets a li1tle scratch time with her, the flies off to sit on a tree stand, back of the couch etc. and just chills. The days of full time scratch and cuddle fests that previously existed are long gone. I will say though, that he frets over where she is at all times and if he loses sight of her, he will go flying in search of her. He is totally attached to her, but not as baby, it is fully almost as if a mate in the wild never leaving the side of their mate. They have little battles of will at times, but regardless of that, they are inseparable.

 

Dan, this is so true, especially with true rescue Greys........

[zandische]

I don't know if any of you have greys old enough that if really pissed they well almost produce a hiss sound and bite the living hell out of you and more than once if you don't move your appendage from that zone.

 

Dan! Mwahaha. This describes Gryph's behavior perfectly. WHENEVER he is mad he makes a hiss sound, which always preceeds a bite if I'm close enough.

 

Thank you for all of the replies! You guys have such good info to keep me calm. It has been so tough these past few weeks not to just cry out of sheer frustration. I just want to know what I am doing wrong!

 

I also wonder how much adolescent fid rebellion actually results from rejection. When a full tilt hormonal bird is rejected by it's most important & worshiped human(s), it makes sense to me that it may result in a serious dent in their relationship. May be strange to say, but have you tried approaching his behavior like Gryph thinks he "loves" you more, rather than less right now? The way you shut down his behaviors could make abig difference in some of his biting & frustration.

 

I thought this at first too. And you may be right, there may be an element of rejection to it. When Gryph and I are alone together he becomes very lovey-dovey, to the point of doing his mating dance on my shoulder. But this involves an aggressive element and he has bitten me, so I stopped him from doing this and it may be taken as rejection. He would also do this same behavior on his perch, rolling upside down and biting my hand when I tried to pick him up, and my unpleasant reaction may just be a birdie slap in the face. I have been very careful to always greet him first, feed him first, give him kisses first etc etc,, but lately it has made no difference. One interesting thing is that if I approach him while he's doing his mating dance and try to remove his sister from his immediate area, he tries to bite her but not me, and will dip his head and let me scratch him very liberally on his head. I know it's bad to encourage mating behavior but I feel like this creates a positive interaction between us.

 

For the most part though, I backed off and we have had very little interaction the last couple of weeks. No shoulder time, no scratches, no step ups...he gets to see me across the room but that is it. He spends a lot of time on his own while Seraph gets snuggles and I feel horrible about that, but it's sort of tough love. I approach him several times a night to offer a step up and talk to him but the minute he shows aggression I walk away. It hasn't made it "good" between us again, but he does seem more willing to interact with me now without biting. Sarasota - I've also been bribing him liberally as well, and there appears to be only one thing he is less resistant to than cheese - safflower seeds.

 

During this away time I've tried to observe his behavior. It seems very much hormonal, and definitely influenced by his sister. If she is near his perch he goes right into the mating dance. Perhaps a feeling of rejection is fueling this behavior too, because while he becomes extremely aggressive at times, Seraph remains her sweet little self even when she seems to be tolerating his advances...including bestowing me (not her chosen person) with the occasional 15 min of "you may now adore me, worship me and scratch me" time. The last couple of nights she has even done a little dance for me, which is very she normally only reserves for my husband. It may just be that she's developing slower than G and isn't really sure what's going on yet. If I put Seraph to bed early, Gryph will usually calm down enough to sit on my arm, and some nights he wants scratches and some nights he just wants to sit there.

 

I am really trying not to take it all personal! I am just hoping that in a couple of weeks he will settle back into routine. Seraph is certainly not interested in him as a mate (my husband is definitely her chosen one). It is just so frustrating at times and I don't understand why my bird seems to be going bonkers! I tell myself each day...this too shall pass...!

[Sarasota]

Well, you sound like you are doing an amazing job. The hard part is not taking it personal...and being tough enough to not force a behavior...and hence making biting reinforcing! It's difficult to explain to non-bird people. Humans are tactile - we want to put our hands on everything. Dogs are great for this. Parrots, for the most part, nope.

 

I find it difficult to curb my own behavior at times - I continue to offer treats even after they are rejected. "You want a grape? Really? You sure? It's a good grape! C'mon..you love grapes!!!"

[zandische]

LOL, Sarasota, you are funny! I am really bad about that too. My husband will usually say something sarcastic like..."Give him your hand, he likes to eat that..."

 

You wrote:

If you can, try to do some work with the bird inside the cage. Do you do targeting with him? Try to rebuild a bit of the relationship from a "hands off" standpoint. Also, whatever treats he likes best, ONLY YOU give them out for now. Not your husband, just you. When you pass the cage, drop a favorite treat in his feed cup. Reward him for every tiny thing he does that is good. No lunging at the bars? Yay! Treat. You want to build something positive between you and the bird again.

 

And I found this interesting, because unlike his sister (and most other birds I've read about) Gryph is almost NEVER cage territorial. He will attack me on site outside of the cage if I get too close, but inside he will give me kisses through the bars and let me scratch him, and I never fear a bite. Even with his recent behavior, he is super gentle inside the cage. He has always been like this. Food for thought...

 

I don't know if we're doing *that* much better but at least I can pick him up with a treat now. Without a treat = no way! He IS, however, learning to give me a kiss whenever he comes out of his cage now. He gets a treat for doing this (sigh, still feels wrong to bribe my bird to be nice to me!) and I always "moderate" the kiss with a finger between us just in case he tries to latch on (at least he'll get the finger and not the face.) Hoping to establish trust this way. I'm also trying to do this with my hand but it's much much slower going. Oh, and he only does the kiss routine RIGHT when he comes out of his cage, if I give him 30 sec to realize that he's free, he is either off to find better games or ready to lunge! Yikes!

 

Dan wrote:

I will say though, that he frets over where she is at all times and if he loses sight of her, he will go flying in search of her. He is totally attached to her, but not as baby, it is fully almost as if a mate in the wild never leaving the side of their mate. They have little battles of will at times, but regardless of that, they are inseparable.

 

You know Dan, this gives me A LOT of hope. Gryph is this way, even right now. He really, really wants to be on my shoulder and if I leave the room, it doesn't matter how mad he seems at me, he will fly in to find me wherever I am. He cannot stand to lose sight of me. If I sleep in on the weekends my hubby will bring Gryph in and he will take up his "security detail" pose on the headboard until I get up, regardless of what the rest of the "flock" in the house is doing. And if I leave for an extended period of time (yay, traveling in a week and a half!) he goes bonkers when I return and becomes velcroed to me. Maybe I just need to chalk all this up to him being a horny, confused teenager who can't figure out how to talk right to a girl....

 

Or so my "human mind" tells me!

[zandische]

Yay! A breakthrough! I had a class last night that ran from 5:45 until 11:45 pm. What a long day - at work all day, then off to class for the evening with only a small break in between to feed the birds. Well, whenever I go away and the birds have to go to bed before I get home, I always make a point to peek in and let Gryph know I'm back because I know how *I* feel on nights when I go to bed before my husband gets home...I don't really sleep until he actually gets home. So, I peek in and Gryph immediately runs out to the front of his cage, so I let him out. Then he shoots straight up onto my arm to the elbow and lays his head against my chest in classic "scratch me" pose. It was so wonderful! We spent about 1/2 hour scratching and cuddling, during which he was super relaxed and happy. I think the key ingredients to this interaction: assurance of safety: (I was home, flock was together, confidence was re-established), sleepy: not enough energy to get angry or upset, interested in low-key activities, sister: still in her cage asleep so no pressure or distraction from "the other woman."

 

So, basically, all I need to do now is wake him up at midnight every night for some cuddle time?

[Timbersmom]

What good news! They always seem more "cuddly" at bedtime. Sounds like a plan to me