danmcq Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Avian Anesthesia is always risky and should not be used in my opinion unless absolutely necessary. Birds do not have diaphrams like we humans, they have up to 9 air sacks. Gas Anesthesia is the preferred and most predominant method over a vein drip for many reasons as you can read about in links I will provide later. Some important questions you should consider if your bird may require Anesthesia: If your avian veterinarian has recommended surgery for your bird, it is your duty to become an advocate for your bird prior to signing the consent forms. Of course, if it is an emergency that has brought you to the vet, there may be no time to research the situation, and you should allow the avian vet to proceed posthaste! You have every right to question your avian vet prior to the surgical event. Some of the questions that you should ask are these: What type of anesthetic agents do you routinely use to anesthetize birds? Do you routinely intubate birds for surgery? What do you use to keep a bird warm during surgery? What type of monitoring equipment do you employ during surgery? Will my bird receive fluids during the procedure? Should I fast my bird prior to surgery? If so, for how long? How many times have you performed this procedure? What type of surgical equipment do you have for birds? Do you routinely use pain medication after performing painful procedures? Do you have an avian intensive care unit for surgical recovery? Who monitors the birds after surgery? Can my bird receive a blood transfusion, if necessary? When might my bird go home after surgery? Will there be sutures or surgical apparatus that needs to be removed after surgery? Would it be in my bird's best interest to be referred? Your avian vet should not feel threatened by your questions, and in most cases, should be proud to detail any advanced training he or she has had, and he or she should take the time to show you the avian surgical suite and equipment If your avian vet has limited experience, but is willing to try the procedure, and you are comfortable with this, using a local avian vet may be the best way to go. However, if there is a chance that the surgical procedure may be very complicated, it might be best to be referred to a university or Board Certified Avian Specialist. You and your avian vet will be best able to make this decision together. If you feel that your bird would benefit from a second opinion, it is courteous to ask your current vet for a referral to a vet he or she respects, for a second opinion. In most cases, your vet will be happy to send along all of the pertinent information, radiographs, ultrasound results and lab work for the second opinion vet to review. If the second vet concurs with the first, you should return to the first vet for the procedure. A few good links on Avian Anesthesia you may find educational: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.harrisonsbirdfoods.com%2Favmed%2Fampa%2F39.pdf&ei=EHYeUMPwG6btiQLDzIDQDQ&usg=AFQjCNGC3MXWAcKmJ-j-2iYwmaWWVO741w http://ocw.tufts.edu/Content/60/lecturenotes/796181 http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=380879 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdhouse Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) I would agree that it shouldn't be done unless there's some really compelling reason & a second opinion where ever possible. Anesthesia is tricky for birds. More risky still when the vet is not completely up to speed w/the most recent methods & equipment. So much better for parronts to learn as much as possible before there's actually a need to make hard decisions. Thanks for posting this Dan. Edited August 5, 2012 by birdhouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judygram Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I have never had any of my birds anesthetized before and this gives me something to think about if and when this ever becomes necessary, I never knew it was so thought provoking, thanks Dan for providing this for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvparrots Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Excellent thread Dan. I chose not to have my grey anesthetized when I had her micro-chipped although it was the policy of this avian vet. When I took my second grey in to be chipped I learned that they no longer had the policy to anesthetize parrots to micro-chip them. For major surgery now that is another thing. Common sense is a God given ability we need to all use. Thanks for this great information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave007 Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Avian Anesthesia is always risky and should not be used in my opinion unless absolutely necessary. Birds do not have diaphrams like we humans, they have up to 9 air sacks. Gas Anesthesia is the preferred and most predominant method over a vein drip for many reasons as you can read about in links I will provide later. Some important questions you should consider if your bird may require Anesthesia: If your avian veterinarian has recommended surgery for your bird, it is your duty to become an advocate for your bird prior to signing the consent forms. Of course, if it is an emergency that has brought you to the vet, there may be no time to research the situation, and you should allow the avian vet to proceed posthaste! You have every right to question your avian vet prior to the surgical event. Some of the questions that you should ask are these: What type of anesthetic agents do you routinely use to anesthetize birds? Do you routinely intubate birds for surgery? What do you use to keep a bird warm during surgery? What type of monitoring equipment do you employ during surgery? Will my bird receive fluids during the procedure? Should I fast my bird prior to surgery? If so, for how long? How many times have you performed this procedure? What type of surgical equipment do you have for birds? Do you routinely use pain medication after performing painful procedures? Do you have an avian intensive care unit for surgical recovery? Who monitors the birds after surgery? Can my bird receive a blood transfusion, if necessary? When might my bird go home after surgery? Will there be sutures or surgical apparatus that needs to be removed after surgery? Would it be in my bird's best interest to be referred? Your avian vet should not feel threatened by your questions, and in most cases, should be proud to detail any advanced training he or she has had, and he or she should take the time to show you the avian surgical suite and equipment If your avian vet has limited experience, but is willing to try the procedure, and you are comfortable with this, using a local avian vet may be the best way to go. However, if there is a chance that the surgical procedure may be very complicated, it might be best to be referred to a university or Board Certified Avian Specialist. You and your avian vet will be best able to make this decision together. If you feel that your bird would benefit from a second opinion, it is courteous to ask your current vet for a referral to a vet he or she respects, for a second opinion. In most cases, your vet will be happy to send along all of the pertinent information, radiographs, ultrasound results and lab work for the second opinion vet to review. If the second vet concurs with the first, you should return to the first vet for the procedure. A few good links on Avian Anesthesia you may find educational: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.harrisonsbirdfoods.com%2Favmed%2Fampa%2F39.pdf&ei=EHYeUMPwG6btiQLDzIDQDQ&usg=AFQjCNGC3MXWAcKmJ-j-2iYwmaWWVO741w http://ocw.tufts.edu/Content/60/lecturenotes/796181 http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=380879 In ideal situations, many of these questions can be asked but many times, there's no time to get into the complexities of surgery. It's difficult to shop around for a vet when surgery is quickly required and the reason is because as everyone knows, when the bird shows symptoms, there isn't a lot of time left. Also, surgery has progressed to the point that many of the above questions have already been combined. Just as with humans, equipment can be different when performing the same procedure. There's 2 types of equipment used to perform an endoscopy. Which equipment is used depends on who the gastroenterologist is. Do you routinely prep the birds for surgery? ( I assume that the word that was left out was prep) If he's an avian vet he either does do it or immediately refers you to a surgical specialist that does . Avian vets try to avoid lawsuits. Avian vets are required by law to list all the procedures he.she are capable of doing. Do you have an avian intensive care unit for surgical recovery? Just as with regular non avian vets, there's always a post surgical unit to put the animals that have had surgery. There is no other place in a avian vet's office to monitor birds Will sutures or surgical apparatus be removed? Since non dissolving sutures are used, protection is used so that a bird can't pick at the sutures. Without it, the surgery would be a complete failure. Who monitors the birds after surgery? At an avian specialist's office all vet techs are required to know monitoring procedures and are also required to treat emergency problems that often require immediate attention. Basically, the reason for that is infection, asperation or body damage. The bird is recovering so it needs to be monitored. It's the same thing that goes on in surgical procedures that are done with people. The special nurses are required to deal with problems that occur especially since 75% of major surgery requires anesthetizia. When might my bird go home after surgery? That really depends upon the severity of the procedure.Lengthy stays in the recovery section will be reflected in your final bill. Can my bird receive a blood transfusion, if necessary? Avian specialists will use all medical procedures that require it to be done. The surgery would be a failure without doing that. They are also required to get the owner's permission to do certain procedures. The price of blood transfusions will be reflected in your bill. Blood transfusions are only used when the bird is pretty close to death. What type of surgical equipment do you have for birds? Only another vet would be able to understand the different types of equipment used for the multitude of procedures that are done. There's other things that can be added in this post but I'll just end it off by saying that if you really want the answers to the above questions, it's best to contact your avian specialist long before you actually need his/her services. If You don't like the answers, shop around for another specialist. In the meantime your bird is still home, healthy, singing, talking, biting, eating well and as usual being his/her usual pain in the ass. This method will also give you a chance to check out A,B.C, D equipment that the specialist spoke about. If you needed immediate surgery, do you decide to get into a conversation about the equipment that will be used and it's success rate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danmcq Posted August 5, 2012 Author Share Posted August 5, 2012 The point of this thread is two fold. 1) Most people don't even know the hazard's of our Avian friends being put under. Thus everyone should go through the checklist of questions BEFORE an emergency happens. I know for example in my area, that there is no Avian vet equipped for an emergency that requires putting a bird under. The closest is an hour away and thus I know if or when a 911 occurs, I am hitting the road and doing 120 all the way there. 2) If anyone takes a bird to the vet for routine clipping, nail trimming or tests and the bird is upset as many are. I have heard many a vet state they must sedate. My advice... Run don't walk to an avian vet that knows you can handle an upset bird using a towel. No one should ever consider sedation for routine visits. All - Please ask the questions before a 911 so you know where you must go for an avian vet capable of handling it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kins2321@yahoo.com Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I agree with all the " preop" questions. Excellent! Now ask the " postop questions!" I found out my dogs would NOT be attended until the next morning after getting " fixed!" After learning this, I told them I would be picking up my dogs, and would monitor them at home. A BIG deal! I didn't care.They argued and disagreed. I signed a " release of responsibility". No way... my pups were staying overnight and noone was there to care! Nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I agree with all the " preop" questions. Excellent! Now ask the " postop questions!" I found out my dogs would NOT be attended until the next morning after getting " fixed!" After learning this, I told them I would be picking up my dogs, and would monitor them at home. A BIG deal! I didn't care.They argued and disagreed. I signed a " release of responsibility". No way... my pups were staying overnight and noone was there to care! Nancy Hi Nancy, This is where problems may occur....when a member might not read all the threads thoroughly and then posts an off-topic response, there tends to be confusion. This might be better suited to off-topic discussions since this thread deals exclusively with birds and anesthesia. Thanks, Maggie P. S. As an Off-topic rely to your rely...I agree and think you were very commendable for your handling of the situation with your dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pikachu Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) There is a traveling avian vet who comes to my area. He holds a clinic where he does a routine exam under anesthesia as well as beak trimming, wings & nail clipping. When I first became a bird owner, I brought my cockatiel...until I started noticing that he didn't seem "right" after the procedures. It made me wonder if the anesthesia was affecting him neurologically. I brought my two other parrots once and then made the decision that it just wasn't right for us, based on the way that the cockatiel reacted. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anything bad about this vet. I just don't want to take the risk anymore. Edited August 11, 2012 by pikachu edited for clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayd Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Greyt observation, better safe than sorry..Thank you...Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kins2321@yahoo.com Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Anesthesia... is NOT like it was years ago. It is meant for kids, adults, birds and other critters, to tolerate a BAD experience. It no longer expects intubation. A little prophapol, go to sleep, no longer needing intubation.It just makes a bad experience, tolerable. Do you think I would tolerate any of my birds, kids, or critters to undergo any procedures without what works for them? You all know me.You know, you have got to get thru me, before I trust anyone, for my family. Nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarasota Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 This really needs to be a sticky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kins2321@yahoo.com Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Dayo, had a GREAT list of questions! A very good checklist, which is quite similiar to the normal checdklist we go thru for humans. As I have said before, we don't like to intubate like the old days, unless they have severe asthma, or COPD. I'm sure the animal world, is right on track, and doing the same thing. Always ask if they are doing " conscious sedation, or deep , requiring intubation."What is the " postop care, and monitoring?" I commented, that I brought Zoey home after getting fixed, since noone would be attending her from 8pm to 7am, first nite postop. Why on earth, would I have her stay there? nANCY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayd Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 This really needs to be a sticky. dave please make this a sticky we second it jay and maggie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdhouse Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 This really needs to be a sticky. This forum's sticky list is getting a little daunting. But this really should get added to the long list of very important health care topics. Can this thread please become a sticky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kins2321@yahoo.com Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I would be interested in having an " interview", with my vet( an exotic bird specialist), if he is willing to be interviewed to discuss this issue. I need to wait to get Sean off to college next week, then I have " empty nest syndrome"! Can't wait! Are you guys interested? Nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Char Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 I just wanted to throw my two cents in here on the anesthesia. Whisper was given anesthesia before her x-ray this past Saturday. I asked the vet if it was necessary. He said yes, and there were some risks but he had done it thousands of time and had never had a single incident. I felt confident in his abilities and experience. She recovered very quickly. It was over in just a few minutes and she was perching within minutes. He said the new generation of anesthetics are purged through the body through breathing and leave the system very quickly. I feel that it would have been more of a risk and stress for her trying to hold her in place than to have the anesthesia. He said that is the only way he would do it and I trusted him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdhouse Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Thanks for taking the time to share. Very good to hear that they really are making such advances. It's been a long time coming. Unfortunately, the problem still remains that there are too many practicing vets who don't keep current. And too many owners who are stuck w/whichever type is available in their area, since there are still so few avian vets. Wondered if you'd be willing to ask your vet for some advice to share w/everyone? Maybe get a professional's view of the questions to ask when faced w/anesthetizing a fid as well as the right & wrong answers. I think it might help a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Char Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) I would be happy to ask him but unfortunately he is in Louisville Ky and I am now in Alabama. I was very fortunate when I lived in KY to be only an hour away from the only Board Certified Avian vet in KY. Unfortunately there are just not enough of them. The best we can do if we are not lucky to live near one is to seek out the most experienced with avian that we can find and be willing to drive some. There are not any certified in Alabama but there is the Northern Alabama Bird and Cat Clinic only 40 minutes from me. I asked Dr. Vaughn about this clinic when I was there on Saturday and he knew the vet and said she is good. I guess that is the best I can hope for. If anything really bad ever happened or I needed a second opinion I would not hesitate to drive to Ky if I needed to but I think this will be okay for routine check ups and such. One thing I think I would ask is "How many times have you done this?" I know that when Dr Vaughn told me he had done it thousands of times then I sure felt reassured. Edited June 25, 2013 by Char Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kins2321@yahoo.com Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 Char... your vet made a wise choise, for the test he needed. It wasn't a test that took long, so I'm sure the anesthesia choice he made was taken into consideration. A quick test, will require a simple gas or IV sedation such as propafol. An extended test or surgery that is much longer, may require anesthesia with intubation. Intubation is NOT a bad thing! It is meant for extended surgery, or birds that have heart or breathing issues.( same as humans!) Just from experience with my dogs, vet also treated my birds, I wasn't happy with the post care. Any animal or human, needs to be monitored for the next 24 hours. If your vet doesn't provide this service, take your animal home so you can monitor them. Nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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