hallo from red grey

[hasni27]

dear bird friends i found this very informative website while surfing the net, my name is dr. hasan and my bird collection can be viewed at the link below

 

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151169476883814.448983.662993813&type=3

 

i hope u will enjoy the ride and especially for those who love red greys.

please share your comments

warm regards

hasan bashir

Edited July 12, 2012 by hasni27

[TWIX]

Hi Hasni27,

 

Where is your location? Are you a breeder? Do you sell birds? if yes, then what about this:

 

[Darwinsmom]

The profile says he is in Pakistan.

[JeffNOK]

TWIX: Are you thinking about getting a Rainbow Lorikeet?

[hasni27]

hi twix , yes dear i am from pakistan and this is red collar lorry . By looking at their playful nature i usually say these are monkeys in parrot family. And yes dear i am a fancier just like many of you and at times sale and purchase . thanks for liking any way.

regards

[TWIX]

TWIX: Are you thinking about getting a Rainbow Lorikeet?

 

Yes Jeff, after watching that video the other day, i really want one

[TWIX]

hi twix , yes dear i am from pakistan and this is red collar lorry . By looking at their playful nature i usually say these are monkeys in parrot family. And yes dear i am a fancier just like many of you and at times sale and purchase . thanks for liking any way.

regards

 

Unfortunately, the UAE has restrictions these days on importing birds to the UAE. I wish i could order one I really like the set up you did, and not to forget how clean are the cages. That's a lot of work, well done.

[Dave007]

I looked at your site and found many beautiful birds but here in the US, most very experienced grey owners on many grey boards would frown on what you're doing with those greys. Many inexperienced first time owners ( of which there are many here) would look at those greys and think they're beautiful and unusual and wish they had one but they have no idea how those greys came to be that color. You're breeding birds for color and changing their color genetics. None of those birds are legitimite red factor greys. Eventually some will become sterile. You'll never be able to duplicate the specific areas that are red. It's not possible because altered color genetics can't be passed on from bird to bird in an exact fashion. Massive breeding will eventually create solid red or splotched red color. A genetically altered red grey doesn't have to be a healthy bird. It simply has to have an abundance of altered genes.

It's one thing to have a bird who is naturally mutated. That's nature. Those greys aren't mutations. The color was gotten by breeding for color.

 

Years ago this same thing was done with macaws. 7 true color macaws were inter bred with other different true color macaws and the chicks came out having very unusual colors. Many were beatuful. They didn't look like either male and female parents.

 

2 Examples----Ruby Macaws ( color atifically produced) and Camalot Macaws.(color artificially produced)

 

If a person takes 2 Ruby Macaws and mates them to each other, I guarantee that the chicks will have no resemblance to the parents. The same holds true for Camalot Macaws and mixing Military macaws with Blue and Gold macaws and mixing other macaws. So, a person can't really get the same colored baby macaw that attracted them in the first place.

 

So why am I saying these things that will upset people here concerning color bred greys?

 

It's only to tell you that beauty is only skin deep and what's being done is in no way natural.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Dave007

[TWIX]

Dave,

i do respect what you wrote over here, but i do not think that breeding for color will affect their health in any way! As long as two healthy Greys are mating, then there should be no issues at all. The red factor genes will show more in the new generation but that's all. He is not altering any genes here at all! Don't you agree?

[Darwinsmom]

Dave,

i do respect what you wrote over here, but i do not think that breeding for color will affect their health in any way! As long as two healthy Greys are mating, then there should be no issues at all. The red factor genes will show more in the new generation but that's all. He is not altering any genes here at all! Don't you agree?

 

I think what Dave is getting at (and correct me if I am wrong Dave) is that selectively breeding for colour mutations involves inbreeding, as well as the blind eye to everything but colour when colour is the primary focus. Therefore there can be significant damage done to a breed because uncontrolled inbreeding, particularly done by amateurs who have no good understanding of genetics, for a particular trait is a very dangerous thing, and often unusual colour mutations can also go hand in hand with other undesirable traits. This red colur is neat, but it IS an undesirable trait, we just like it for being unique and humans try to replicate it, playing god if you will. I cant imagine a bright red Grey being a good thing in the wild, if they were meant to be that colour Mother nature would not have made them grey with red tails.

 

Anyway, thats my take on what I think Dave was getting at. I've got a pretty extensive understanding of genetics, I've been breeding cats and dogs for more than 25 years now. I may need to bone up on bird genetics just for fun.

[TWIX]

I am not an expert of Genetics and you maybe right after all! I just thought as long as it'sa natural process than it should be fine, but like i said you may be right.

[CLB]

Unfortunately, when humans get involved some of what's "natural" get lost.

[Darwinsmom]

Unfortunately, when humans get involved some of what's "natural" get lost.

 

Yes, we sure screw up almost everything we touch, including our own planet. The world was a better place before we became so "advanced" in the last 100 years or so.

[Dave007]

I think what Dave is getting at (and correct me if I am wrong Dave) is that selectively breeding for colour mutations involves inbreeding, as well as the blind eye to everything but colour when colour is the primary focus. Therefore there can be significant damage done to a breed because uncontrolled inbreeding, particularly done by amateurs who have no good understanding of genetics, for a particular trait is a very dangerous thing, and often unusual colour mutations can also go hand in hand with other undesirable traits. This red colur is neat, but it IS an undesirable trait, we just like it for being unique and humans try to replicate it, playing god if you will. I cant imagine a bright red Grey being a good thing in the wild, if they were meant to be that colour Mother nature would not have made them grey with red tails.

 

Anyway, thats my take on what I think Dave was getting at. I've got a pretty extensive understanding of genetics, I've been breeding cats and dogs for more than 25 years now. I may need to bone up on bird genetics just for fun.

 

All I can say is that you're pretty much right on target.

 

The magic word here is inbreeding which is a no no.

 

As you said if it was natural, greys would be doing it.

 

Another example are amazons---there's approx 20 types. Of them, about 8/9 can be pets. The others can't live in any type of captivity.

None of these amazon pets will try to mate with another kind. A yellow naped Zon will not mate with a yellow crowned Zon. Blue fronted Zon will not mate with green winged Zon. Nature doesn't allow that. They all look alike but that's as far as it goes.-- etc---etc.

 

And I'm totally correct concerning those macaws which is sad because each type of macaw has it's own particular personality. A blue and gold is the friendliest. The scarlett is the hardest to keep and totally aggressive. They can all be made to mate but what comes out is a very sad picture. In the wild, none of these macaws will not show any interest in each other.

[Dave007]

Dave,

i do respect what you wrote over here, but i do not think that breeding for color will affect their health in any way! As long as two healthy Greys are mating, then there should be no issues at all. The red factor genes will show more in the new generation but that's all. He is not altering any genes here at all! Don't you agree?

 

As I've already said, the birds don't have to be healthy in order to do this and yes, it will affect their health and when chicks are constantly being born in multi shades of red in all areas, then yes, color genetics is being affected.

[JeffNOK]

I'm curious why the original poster has not responded to any of this.

[Jayd]

On a post like this it is best to do research outside the Forum. The term is "Hybrid"....

[hasni27]

dear Twix, Zulix mom, Jeffnok, Dave007 , CLB, Jayed, thank u for ur comments.

As a bird lover what is important to me is to take best care of what i have with me so i love my birds in whatever color and shape they are .

dear friends i think some of u have gone little too far but this red clour appears naturally while breeding natural colored african congo grey , i haven't done anything special like breeding african grey with red lorry and getting red grey, so with respect red color genes are there with birds and it may become dominant and reflects this way. Although i respect ur wish not to change nature as nature has its own beauty , but what if nature gives us something different , how can we deny. i am not some genetic scientist , i am just a bird lover like one of you . i don't know about these birds parents in very detail or neither their history as both of them bought separately , but when i try to trace their history i came to know that male was imported here in pakistan from some other country but female was local breed and their parents have some red factor in their feathers but not all of it and one thing more they were not even so red few years back but slowly getting red color more enhanced even if they are on very same simple diet and fruits which i am offering to all other birds.

so i fully respect ur views to not alter and playing with nature as i am of same mindset as most of you but at same time we must keep in mind at times nature takes different coarse and provide us something different.

one thing more dear dave the examples u have given like macaws and amazons , dear these breeds have sub species with different colors as u have mentioned different macaws breeding and producing different colors but dear bringing in ur notice greys have just two different subspecies

1) african congo grey

2) timneh african grey

i don't know the way how can u enhance or reduce red color in grey parrot but if there is any method , please mention i will be obliged.

my common sense says red color genes are always with greys and it may appear more in some birds or it may not , its all nature's decision .

any how no offense to any friend , i hope u like my collection and please do share if some friend have some red factor grey with him or her as this naturally occurring different birds are very rare and this make them special and different .

thanks again to all those who like my birds.

warm regards

hasan bashir

[hasni27]

To support my statement that red color genes is naturally occurring genes , please click and read following article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Grey_Parrot

as it state

 

"Several mutations occur naturally in the wild, like the F2 Pied Mutation, which results in a broad red band across the abdomen".

thanks and regards

Edited July 16, 2012 by hasni27

[Jayd]

Wikipedia is not accepted in academic circles as a reliable source. Yes there is Partial Red factor Greys in nature, The reason there isn't solid red Greys in nature is because of predators.

Weather there is health or other problems, there hasn't been enough time to decide that.

Most red feathers are lost at the time of first moult, this is a "timed gene" many young animals are differently colored than a adult bird.

Red color genes are not apparent in all Greys in nature or in captivity. When we pair two Greys that have a abundance of red doesn't mean you'll receive a red factor Grey unless the gene was present in a parent, so you have to bred and re-bred a number of times to achieve your goal, unless you inbred.[Wrong]

So in a sense, you are messing with mother nature..." i am not some genetic scientist" your own words, I suggest you research "genetic" so you will have a better understanding of what your saying and doing. All solid Red Greys are produced in captivity, not in nature. If you broach a subject, please have all the correct info before doing so.

 

When Vonk van Antwerpen Hand pick the red colored Greys for his project,[project=to make money] he kept breeding till he got what he wanted,rumors go he inbred...

There's the subject of "Hybrids" etc...So no, Solid Red Factor Greys are not natural, yes " special and different" not natural in nature

 

Thank you

Jayd.

 

 

if you would like to learn something about "Mutations" which I fancy:

http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?196068-Dominant-RecessiveMutation.

http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?196088-Sex-linked-Mutation.

http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?196120-Mutations-Last-Post

Edited July 16, 2012 by Jayd

[Darwinsmom]

I dont disagree its a naturally occurring mutation, HOWEVER, your statements are a perfect example of not understanding genetics and misleading people to think this is a harmless, safe thing to breed for. This mutation is a recessive gene. This means the both parent birds need to carry for it, are selectively bred to produce this gene/colour, and then INBRED over and over again to produce more and more red on the feathers. Inbreeding damages a breed, that is fact. Loss of hybrid vigor, setting undesirable traits as well as the trait they are being bred for etc... Selectively breeding for one particular trait is NEVER EVER a good thing, particularly a cosmetic one and particularly on in which the breeder stands to capitalize on an unusual or unique characteristic.

[Jayd]

Thank you ZulusMom, if I may point out, you do not have to inbreed for color, just good parental records to be selectively bred. Red factor Greys in the wild are not inbred they are wild, just not solid red. As you say, inbreeding is never a good thing.

In African Grey parrots where the normal color is Grey, the Blue mutation will be expressed as white feathers once the yellow-based pigments are removed from the normally red tail. Hence, a Blue mutation African Grey will be a grey bird with a white tail.

Inbreeding is when you re-breed family members to enforce a trait. Selective breeding is when you breed birds of different heritage with records of offspring's to enforce a trait, hybrid is something else......Thanks Jayd

Edited July 16, 2012 by Jayd

[Darwinsmom]

Thank you ZulusMom, if I may point out, you do not have to inbreed for color, just good parental records to be selectively bred. Red factor Greys in the wild are not inbred they are wild, just not solid red. As you say, inbreeding is never a good thing.

In African Grey parrots where the normal color is Grey, the Blue mutation will be expressed as white feathers once the yellow-based

pigments are removed from the normally red tail. Hence, a Blue mutation African Grey will be a grey bird with a white tail.

Inbreeding is when you re-breed family members to enforce a trait. Selective breeding is when you breed birds of different heritage with records of offspring's to enforce a trait......Thanks Jayd

 

Hey Jayd, I am aware of the difference but to intensify a trait often inbreeding is used, particularly with a recessive trait that is hard to find naturally. Be it inbreeding to continuously produce a particular trait, or selective breeding, its still done for the wrong reasons. PROFIT.

 

Edit: If it was not clear, my post was actually agreeing with Jayd but also underscoring the fact to the other postster that breeding, in whatever form, to focus on one trait is wrong, as these "red" breeders are intending to do. As with all breeding, the focus should be on total health of the animal, not whatever unusual trait is going to make a quick buck. That is not responsible breeding.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Darwinsmom

[Jayd]

Hey Jayd, I am aware of the difference but to intensify a trait often inbreeding is used, particularly with a recessive trait that is hard to find naturally. Be it inbreeding to continuously produce a particular trait, or selective breeding, its still done for the wrong reasons. PROFIT.

Yes, this I completey agreed with you on...Thanks for your useful knowledge and imput...

This might interest you.[i don't agree]http://www.theparrotuniversity.com/

Edited July 16, 2012 by Jayd
Spelling

[Jayd]

Yes, this has been a good debate;) so much knowledge passed around, Thanks Jayd