vid of a women showing a new owner how to 'handle' her grey

[carlsjr]

what dan said was 100% correct. the session was for training the owner its clear she had no clue on how to extract the bird. I actually think the lady was more terrified than the bird was....

 

The bird was not harmed and the owner gained confidence on how to handle a emergency which is why she was there. she was not there to train the bird or to build trust.

Edited August 7, 2012 by carlsjr

[Sarasota]

At .21 and .40 the trainer specifically states she is teaching "training techniques." 1:17 bird shown open mouth panting. 1:33 bird bites when forced onto the hand. 1:53 trainer advises owner to "take the hit." 2:53 birds flys back into cage to avoid the hand, vocalizing loudly the trainer grabs the bird by the foot. 3:30 bird is grabbed by the foot, wings flapping, loud vocalization. 3:40 trainer advises the owner to be bitten. 4:44 trainer refers to this as "bonding." 5:02 bird shown eyes wide, panting, feathers slicked down, wings held apart from body.

 

I understand we do whatever it takes to assist our birds in an emergency situation. This is not a good demonstration.

 

Please compare to something like this (only positive reinforcement used):

[pcwhite64]

Awful video I have watched it 4 times and found it very distressing wing clipping is awful and should be banned

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

I clipped my birds to a certain degree, when they were between the ages of two-four. They could fly, at least 10 feet in every direction. We also practiced flying. They were able to focus on training. As they matured, learned how to stepup, stepdown, settled on my wrist only, they matured to stepping on my shoulder, and being able to fly everywhere. No furthur biting.

My birds still get beaks and talons trimmed. They can fly quite well.The other day, Paul, their trimmer, invited me back to talk about Sunny, our sunconure. He was toweled. He pointed out his ribcage, and how much weight he has lost.He is old, and losing muscle . I was horrified!( granted, he is only 22 grams under weight). They were all toweled to get a quick trim. Sophie was fine... right flying feathers were coming in, kiki, is a maniac with flying. Of course, I am flipping out about Sunny.

Took him to the vet today...agreed sunny is old, losing muscle mass. He is healthy... eating, peeing and pooping. Very active.I need to fatten him up.So far, he likes pasta, and yogurt off a spoon.Trying six meals per day. He;s doing well.I'm not going to do well... losing him Nancy

[Sarasota]

Took him to the vet today...agreed sunny is old, losing muscle mass. He is healthy... eating, peeing and pooping. Very active.I need to fatten him up.So far, he likes pasta, and yogurt off a spoon.Trying six meals per day. He;s doing well.I'm not going to do well... losing him Nancy

 

Oh Nancy! I am so very, very sorry. Does the vet think it is just his advanced age? Maybe it's something that could be treated? My heart goes out to you.

[carlsjr]

At .21 and .40 the trainer specifically states she is teaching "training techniques." 1:17 bird shown open mouth panting. 1:33 bird bites when forced onto the hand. 1:53 trainer advises owner to "take the hit." 2:53 birds flys back into cage to avoid the hand, vocalizing loudly the trainer grabs the bird by the foot. 3:30 bird is grabbed by the foot, wings flapping, loud vocalization. 3:40 trainer advises the owner to be bitten. 4:44 trainer refers to this as "bonding." 5:02 bird shown eyes wide, panting, feathers slicked down, wings held apart from body.

 

I understand we do whatever it takes to assist our birds in an emergency situation. This is not a good demonstration.

 

Please compare to something like this (only positive reinforcement used):

 

I think you are missing the part at the beginning where the owner said they could not handle billy to get him out of his cage to take care of his wing injuries. the training you pointed out was more for the owner than for Billy. did you notice how afraid she was when the host told her it was her turn to extract Billy? she was racked with fear. I see nothing wrong with the host telling the owner to take the bite, because you know sometimes you just have to for the benefit of the bird.

 

at 4:40 the Host even talks about the owner wanting to learn how to handle billy a better, and she did. the owner now has a bit more confidence with her parrot. the 5:02 cliip is edited in from earlier in the session not the end of it. at the end Billy is quietly sitting in the cage looking content.

 

you linked a cool video but i have no clue what training a apex predator like a Hawk has to do with the subject matter of this thread on how to train a owner to extract a injured parrot from its cage.

Edited August 9, 2012 by carlsjr

[Sarasota]

I think you are missing the part at the begining where the owner said they could not handle billy to get him out of his cage to take care of his wing injuries. the training you pointed out was more for the owner than for Billy. did you notice how afraid she was when the host told her it was her turn to extract Billy? she was racked with fear. I see nothing wrong with the host telling the owner to take the bite, because you know sometimes you just have to for the benifit of the bird.

 

I did not miss that part of the video. And at no point did I see "emergency training."

 

If a raptor can be trained using positive reinforcement, there's absolutely no reason that a parrot cannot be treated with respect and dignity when learning to step up. Force and coercion are simply not necessary and creates further behavioral problems. Refer to Murray Sidman's "Coercion and its Fallout." http://www.amazon.com/Coercion-Its-Fallout-Revised-Edition/dp/1888830018

 

Any trainer suggesting that you "take the bite" should carefully review their training skills and ability. Sorry, it's just bad advice.

[carlsjr]

I did not miss that part of the video. And at no point did I see "emergency training."

 

If a raptor can be trained using positive reinforcement, there's absolutely no reason that a parrot cannot be treated with respect and dignity when learning to step up. Force and coercion are simply not necessary and creates further behavioral problems. Refer to Murray Sidman's "Coercion and its Fallout." http://www.amazon.com/Coercion-Its-Fallout-Revised-Edition/dp/1888830018

 

Any trainer suggesting that you "take the bite" should carefully review their training skills and ability. Sorry, it's just bad advice.

 

 

Interesting book i may have to read it. but i still maintain that the training was not for the bird it was for the owner. taking the bite was part of the host getting the owner over the fear of getting bit. its obvious this is a first time parrot owner and she need a lot of help to get over her ignorance and fear of handling a bird.

[Spock]

I did not miss that part of the video. And at no point did I see "emergency training."

If a raptor can be trained using positive reinforcement, there's absolutely no reason that a parrot cannot be treated with respect and dignity when learning to step up. Force and coercion are simply not necessary and creates further behavioral problems. Refer to Murray Sidman's "Coercion and its Fallout." http://www.amazon.com/Coercion-Its-Fallout-Revised-Edition/dp/1888830018

Any trainer suggesting that you "take the bite" should carefully review their training skills and ability. Sorry, it's just bad advice.

When it comes to Avian handling Sarasota is Spot on, this is something we learned in school in many classes, science, psychology, humanity and animal abuse classes [non-school]. Something else we learned is etiquette, net and personal. Please re-frame from telling a member what they are missing or if they don't know what their talking about, this in no form is ever proper.

You never grab a parrot or dog etc by the leg, it can cause physical harm and possible mental injure. Your opinion was "I see nothing wrong with the host telling the owner to take the bite, because you know sometimes you just have to for the benefit of the bird." Thank you for that, some of us disagree, that is what this forum is about. You stated: "The owner now has a bit more confidence with her parrot." I agree, she has learned how to Manhandle and cause possible unintentional abuse to her parrot... Maggie

Edited August 9, 2012 by Spock
spelling

[CLB]

I can attest to the reality of getting bit...it did NOT make me want to handle my bird more! Novice parrot owners are much better suited to positive reinforcement training and bond building.

[Sarasota]

Interesting book i may have to read it. but i still maintain that the training was not for the bird it was for the owner. taking the bite was part of the host getting the owner over the fear of getting bit. its obvious this is a first time parrot owner and she need a lot of help to get over her ignorance and fear of handling a bird.

 

It's a wonderful book!

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. But let me offer this: Wild parrot research shows they do not bite each other and draw blood. Biting is not natural for a parrot in the wild, and we shouldn't accept it as the norm as parrot owners. The bird is strongly sending a message of fear and/or discomfort. If we suggest to each other "take the hit!" we are asking for more biting. They are amazingly smart. They quickly learn that a bite makes you go away, put them down, return them to the cage, etc. so they bite again, and harder.

 

There's a reason that positive punishment training is so popular - it's extremely rewarding for the trainer.

 

Give it a try. Ask an unknown bird to step up on you by thrusting a stick at it, or your hand. Or work quietly for several sessions offering a favorite treat. It may be slow going, but that bird will come to trust and respect you. And then when it comes time when the fire alarm goes off and you have to grab it and shove it in a towel...the relationship won't be irreparably damaged.

[carlsjr]

When it comes to Avian handling Sarasota is Spot on, this is something we learned in school in many classes, science, psychology, humanity and animal abuse classes [non-school]. Something else we learned is etiquette, net and personal. Please re-frame from telling a member what they are missing or if they don't know what their talking about, this in no form is ever proper.

You never grab a parrot or dog etc by the leg, it can cause physical harm and possible mental injure. Your opinion was "I see nothing wrong with the host telling the owner to take the bite, because you know sometimes you just have to for the benefit of the bird." Thank you for that, some of us disagree, that is what this forum is about. You stated: "The owner now has a bit more confidence with her parrot." I agree, she has learned how to Manhandle and cause possible unintentional abuse to her parrot... Maggie

 

No i will not refrain from telling a member they missed something. i was not rude or hostile, i was merely pointing out that there was a area of the video that he should look at again because he may have missed it. please point out to me where i said Sarasota didnt know what he was talking about? even though i do not agree with his opinion on this matter i still respect what he has to say. so i really do not understand why you are reprimanding me. since you brought up edI understand his point about positive reinforcement training and I use it on my birds and other animals, im no stranger to animal training, i took my rottweiler to a Schultzhund III title.

 

I am going to say this one more time and im done. the video was about training the owner not the bird, the bird already knew how to step up. the owner needed reassurance that even if the bird bites that in an emergency that you will just have to grin and bear it. she she was there because the bird got hurt in its cage and she did not know how to handle the situation. if that means "man handling" the bird then so be it. on the subject of "man Handling"...

 

The owner never "man handled " billy. she learned how to extract the bird. at 3:55 when the owner makes her first attempt to remove billy she is really scared and if look closely she does not pin billys toes. she removed Billy with little stress and even gives him a stroke down the back for doing good, looks like positive reinforcement to me. at 4:50 the host goes over what they accomplished. i believe the word used incase of future injury or fire... she now knows how to handle it. that is not a bad thing ever.

[carlsjr]

It's a wonderful book!

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. But let me offer this: Wild parrot research shows they do not bite each other and draw blood. Biting is not natural for a parrot in the wild, and we shouldn't accept it as the norm as parrot owners. The bird is strongly sending a message of fear and/or discomfort. If we suggest to each other "take the hit!" we are asking for more biting. They are amazingly smart. They quickly learn that a bite makes you go away, put them down, return them to the cage, etc. so they bite again, and harder.

 

There's a reason that positive punishment training is so popular - it's extremely rewarding for the trainer.

 

Give it a try. Ask an unknown bird to step up on you by thrusting a stick at it, or your hand. Or work quietly for several sessions offering a favorite treat. It may be slow going, but that bird will come to trust and respect you. And then when it comes time when the fire alarm goes off and you have to grab it and shove it in a towel...the relationship won't be irreparably damaged.

 

ive watched parrots of telegraph hill a few times and the documentary does show a couple of the wild cherry heads pretty tore up from fighting.

 

Positive punishment (P+) is popular because it does work and its especially effective when used along with positive reinforcement. the video has a great example of positive punishment. the owner. she got bit once and its painfully obvious she did not want to get bit again (P+). the host had to get her over that obstacle that was in the way of her helping her bird if he needed help.

[Sarasota]

...because he may have missed it.

 

Hey! I'm a she!

[carlsjr]

my apologies.

[Jayd]

ive watched parrots of telegraph hill a few times and the documentary does show a couple of the wild cherry heads pretty tore up from fighting.

Positive punishment (P+) .

carlsjr, I gave you the benefit of letting you say what ever you wanted to or about me, I fell on my sword to let you look good in hopes that you would realize you were coming on a little strong, please heed my advice, do not take this liberty on other members... with that said: The Cherry heads and other conures of the documentary wer injured by predators and other mishaps, when a parrot in the wild is sick or injured, other birds will harass them sometimes up until death....This is not a dog or lion or other forum, it is a parrot forum and avian training techniques are used and practiced here. Positive punishment is abusive and is never condoned or practiced on our parrots. Your opinion is respected, not your attitude.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Jayd
spelling

[Jayd]

No i will not refrain from telling a member they missed something. i was not rude or hostile, i was merely pointing out that there was a area of the video that he should look at again because he may have missed it. please point out to me where i said Sarasota didnt know what he was talking about? even though i do not agree with his opinion on this matter i still respect what he has to say. so i really do not understand why you are reprimanding me. since you brought up edI understand his point about positive reinforcement training and I use it on my birds and other animals, im no stranger to animal training, i took my rottweiler to a Schultzhund III title.

 

I am going to say this one more time and im done. the video was about training the owner not the bird, the bird already knew how to step up. the owner needed reassurance that even if the bird bites that in an emergency that you will just have to grin and bear it. she she was there because the bird got hurt in its cage and she did not know how to handle the situation. if that means "man handling" the bird then so be it. on the subject of "man Handling"...

 

The owner never "man handled " billy. she learned how to extract the bird. at 3:55 when the owner makes her first attempt to remove billy she is really scared and if look closely she does not pin billys toes. she removed Billy with little stress and even gives him a stroke down the back for doing good, looks like positive reinforcement to me. at 4:50 the host goes over what they accomplished. i believe the word used incase of future injury or fire... she now knows how to handle it. that is not a bad thing ever.

 

Please let it be known that if you wish to continue to post on this forum you will act accordingly the same way you expect other to towards you. In two paragraphs you started them by :No i will not ...I am going to say this one more time, And I was referring to myself [Jay] and how you spoke to me....Your opinion is respected and valued, but other people who might be educated more than you, might also have a opinion and they expect you to respect theirs also. Quote:im no stranger to animal training, i took my rottweiler to a Schultzhund III title.unquote, I'm think that wonderful and I'm very proud of you and your accomplishment, the problem is, Dog training has no place in the avian world, it is not used,they are to completely psychologically different creatures...I told you I felt you have a lot to offer this forum, I also feel you still have a lot to learn, so please open your mind and listen to some of these Greyt people, see what they have to offer, by doing this, we all learn..carlsjr, go to "Off Topic's" and do some posts about your dogs, I'd love to read them and learn from them.... There is no Alpha Dog in the parrot world, nor is there one here on the Grey Forums...

 

Jayd

Edited August 9, 2012 by Jayd
spelling

[carlsjr]

Please let it be known that if you wish to continue to post on this forum you will act accordingly the same way you expect other to towards you. In two paragraphs you started them by :No i will not ...I am going to say this one more time, And I was referring to myself [Jay] and how you spoke to me....Your opinion is respected and valued, but other people who might be educated more than you, might also have a opinion and they expect you to respect theirs also. Quote:im no stranger to animal training, i took my rottweiler to a Schultzhund III title.unquote, I'm think that wonderful and I'm very proud of you and your accomplishment, the problem is, Dog training has no place in the avian world, it is not used,they are to completely psychologically different creatures...I told you I felt you have a lot to offer this forum, I also feel you still have a lot to learn, so please open your mind and listen to some of these Greyt people, see what they have to offer, by doing this, we all learn..carlsjr, go to "Off Topic's" and do some posts about your dogs, I'd love to read them and learn from them.... There is no Alpha Dog in the parrot world, nor is there one here on the Grey Forums...

 

Jayd

 

sorry but i dont know why you stuck your nose in this. i was having a conversation with another member, I was not being rude or disrespectful or over bearing. as a mod you are pretty heavy handed and mixed up your roll from posting as a user and a mod. post as one or the other but never as both and NEVER reprimand a user in the thread, take it to a PM. i brought up my dog once and only once it was a reference about that i do have experience in professional animal training. I dont know why you brought it up again like it was the entire point of my post. mind boggling. Im no expert by any means but im not a beginner either. parrot, dog, cat, hawk, horse. it doesn't matter the core of training is the same for any animal. you have a lot to learn and i can say that with what limited knowledge i do have.

 

"No alpha dog in the parrot world or in the grey forums??" wow.... stay classy.

 

I do listen to others on here and have built some cool toys from members posting their ideas but i wont listen to you who said in another thread thread to me "parrots have no way of eliminating salt".......

 

this is a great forum, I thought it was about learning but it looks like "its the good ole i don't agree with you so im going to threaten to ban you". I will not be bullied by you to curb my thoughts or views or words just because you do not agree with them. when you post flat out wrong information like about salt for example is reason enough to take what you say with a grain of salt.

 

thanks for turning a interesting thread into a ugly one. Im done, lock my account.

 

Sarasota, thanks for the convo. contrary to what Jayd thinks i respect you and your postings. we didnt see eye to eye on what the video was about. thats life. see ya

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

I, have to be honest, I didn't read any responses, as I am worried about Sunny. He is my only concern right now. Nancy

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

carlsjr Thank you for your comforting thoughts! I am very worried about Sunny right now. Don't leave. You have alot to offer this site. You have alot to offer me! I am soooo worried about Sunny right now. Please help me, with a bird, that is worth helping! Nancy

[zooman]

just checking to see the status of nancy bird after being away for a few days whoa. one thing I've learned since joining in 2008 we are all avian lovers and very passionate. I hope your bird is doing better I know it must be hard. let us know if you need any help.

 

as for the video. like I said before different strokes for different folks for what people think is right. to say birds don't fight that's incorrect I have seen birds defending their nests not with to the death force but def get outta here squawking and pecking. mainly when I raised pigeons but seen it in wild birds too.to say birds don't fight in the wild is like when people try to tell me birds get a full nights rest and say yours has to get 10 hours of uninterrupted sleep. think about birds in trees with night sounds and a tree full of other birds stirring around. I'd sleep with one eye open half the night if it was me. I believe in positive reinforcement as well to an extent. bird still has to have boundaries.

[Sarasota]

...To say birds don't fight that's incorrect I have seen birds defending their nests not with to the death force but def get outta here squawking and pecking.

 

Not fighting, biting to draw blood. And it's parrots in question, not other birds. Please refer to: Brice, February, 1994, Munn, July 1998, Gilardi, February, 1999, English, November, 2000, May 15, 2001. In 35 years of field research, only two researchers ever heard of a parrot biting hard enough to draw blood.

 

Positive reinforcement does not mean you do not set boundaries for your birds.

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

carlsjr... YES... this is a site for learning. I'm always learning, as I'm sure others are too. I respect your thoughts, and really want you to stay with us.I have followed your comments for a long time, and I truly respect you. You have much to offer this site and me. I have always valued your opinion. Nancy

[zooman]

ohhppp sorry didn't know we were discussing biting to draw blood. common sense tells me birds have lightning reflexes so doubtful they would allow much of that degree of fighting. I have read articles of some of thoses authors. one of them seen an increase of fighting due to habitat destruction for quality nesting sites. that's what I've meant. I don't discount those experts at all believe me. I know pigeons aren't parrots but all animals have a way of defending themselves. trust me I wish parrots only pecked not bit. I've been lucky to never have a blood drawn bite (knock on wood lol ) yet, but I don't think god created them with those beaks just for cracking nuts. I had built up this fear of biting with my Zuri when I brought him home soo much it affected my first week with him. it's why in the video when she said take the bite although I'm not agreeing with it in its entirety once you get bit ya it sucks but not the end of he world and you get confident. I got bit the 2nd day getting him out of his cage 4 years ago and from that day forth my apprehension of it was gone and I could pheww breatheeee haha. animals sense fear I feel from that day forth we oth were different.

[Sarasota]

...I know pigeons aren't parrots but all animals have a way of defending themselves.

 

Heck yeah! I love when other members have pigeons. I often get that "glazed over look" from people when I talk about my pigeons. For some reason, they are discounted...and they are amazing! You are 100% correct there. I've got my pigeons on wooden eggs right now...and they will fight me to the death when I get near their nest bowls. Thank goodness they don't have massive beaks!

 

And toucans.....fugedaboutit. I call them velociraptors. Breeding season with my male can be quite a challenge!