new member, no grey, yet ;)

[wulfie]

I'm new here and have come with a few questions. I'm looking at getting a hand-raised timneh and have a few questions. I work the overnight shift and was wondering if it's possible to 'flip-flop' their sleep schedule? My fiance is on disability so she keeps the same schedule I do. I get home from work around 7am, am up til around 1pm and then sleep til around 9pm. If I were to keep my timneh in a dark room with blackout curtains, would we be able to swap his sleep schedule so that he's up from the time we get up til when my fiance goes to bed around 4am? Any help/info would be greatly appreciated. I know that we'll have to get a uva/uvb light so that he's at least getting some 'sunlight'.

[Dave007]

Reversing a natural sleep time schedule and body clock for any bird isn't possible. Covering a bird or putting the bird in a darkroom or using blackout curtains won't alter what nature has dictated for birds. There are ways to make a bird go to sleep a little earlier when the time is night time. Many people use covers to keep their bird quiet in the evening and many times that doesn't even work. There is no uvb light that brightens up any area. All those types of light aren't bright. All birds of all species need light and it doesn't have to be the type you mention.

Actually, no matter what species you get, it would be technically considered cruel and unusual treatment/punishment even though your intentions aren't to be cruel.

In some countries doing that is against the law and pets can be removed.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Dave007

[wulfie]

strange, a local breeder told me that it's totally possible as long as I get a uva/uvb light :confused:

[judygram]

strange, a local breeder told me that it's totally possible as long as I get a uva/uvb light :confused:

 

Of course he told you it is possible, he wants to sell you a bird doesn't he. Dave IS a breeder of greys and he knows his stuff, this is a wild animal we are talking about and you cannot mess with trying to flip their sleep schedule for if you do you are asking for trouble, you want the best for your new companion don't you and you already know it is difficult enough for us to change our internal clock so imagine how it will be for an animal that doesn't understand what you are trying to accomplish. My opinion is to wait a while and see if your schedule changes to a daylight one and then consider getting a grey, just my opinion.

 

[aerial.2000]

Gosh I would think that would just be unbelievably hard to do regardless of blackout curtains and uv lights. I know I spent sooooooo much $ on Marco I would not want to attempt to do something that is unnatural for her and alter her in any way. I would consider getting a cat thats my advice

[wulfie]

Impact of light–dark cycle

The rhythm is linked to the light–dark cycle. Animals, including humans, kept in total darkness for extended periods eventually function with a freerunning rhythm. Their sleep cycle is pushed back or forward each "day", depending on whether their "day", their endogenous period, is shorter or longer than 24 hours. The environmental cues that reset the rhythms each day are called zeitgebers (from the German, "time-givers").[16] It is interesting to note that totally-blind subterranean mammals (e.g., blind mole rat Spalax sp.) are able to maintain their endogenous clocks in the apparent absence of external stimuli. Although they lack image-forming eyes, their photoreceptors (which detect light) are still functional; they do surface periodically as well.[17]

Freerunning organisms that normally have one or two consolidated sleep episodes will still have them when in an environment shielded from external cues, but the rhythm is, of course, not entrained to the 24-hour light–dark cycle in nature. The sleep–wake rhythm may, in these circumstances, become out of phase with other circadian or ultradian rhythms such as metabolic, hormonal, CNS electrical, or neurotransmitter rhythms.[18]

 

Therefore this rhythm (internal clock is set by a schedule, that occurs at the same points of time each day), so it can be set as a baby. Also if human have this same internal clock and are able to change their sleeping ways, so can birds.

 

Light resets the biological clock in accordance with the phase response curve (PRC). Depending on the timing, light can advance or delay the circadian rhythm. Both the PRC and the required illuminance vary from species to species and lower light levels are required to reset the clocks in nocturnal rodents than in humans.

Lighting levels that affect the circadian rhythm in humans are higher than the levels usually used in artificial lighting in homes. According to some researchers[36] the illumination intensity that excites the circadian system has to reach up to 1000 lux striking the retina.

In addition to light intensity, wavelength (or colour) of light is a factor in the entrainment of the body clock. Melanopsin is most efficiently excited by light from the blue part of the spectrum (420–440 nm[37] according to some researchers while others have reported 470–485 nm). These blue wavelengths are present in virtually all light sources, therefore their elimination requires special lights or filters which appear amber.

It is thought that the direction of the light may have an effect on entraining the circadian rhythm;[36] light coming from above, resembling an image of a bright sky, has greater effect than light entering our eyes from below.

 

This states that the correct artificial lighting can reset an internal clock.

 

To be called circadian, a biological rhythm must meet these four general criteria:

The rhythms repeat once a day (they have a 24-hour period). In order to keep track of the time of day, a clock must be at the same point at the same time each day, i.e. repeat every 24 hours.

The rhythms persist in the absence of external cues (endogenous). The rhythm persists in constant conditions with a period of about 24 hours. The rationale for this criterion is to distinguish circadian rhythms from simple responses to daily external cues. A rhythm cannot be said to be endogenous unless it has been tested in conditions without external periodic input.

The rhythms can be adjusted to match the local time (entrainable). The rhythm can be reset by exposure to external stimuli (such as light and heat), a process called entrainment. The rationale for this criterion is to distinguish circadian rhythms from other imaginable endogenous 24-hour rhythms that are immune to resetting by external cues, and hence do not serve the purpose of estimating the local time. Travel across time zones illustrates the ability of the human biological clock to adjust to the local time; a person will usually experience jet lag before entrainment of their circadian clock has brought it into sync with local time.

The rhythms maintain circadian periodicity over a range of physiological temperatures; they exhibit temperature compensation. Some organisms live at a broad range of temperatures, and differences in thermal energy will affect the kinetics of all molecular processes in their cell(s). In order to keep track of time, the organism's circadian clock must maintain a roughly 24-hour periodicity despite the changing kinetics, a property known as temperature compensation.

 

The only elements that you are required to really control is the type of lighting used, a set schedule for lighting (such as at the same time every day it must be on and off), and temperature. With temperature it is typically colder at night and warms up in the morning.

 

But sceintifically and with all that hoop-la included yes it is possible, but there are the adverse affects like stated of inosmnia, lack of nutrition, fatigue, and disorientation can occour if your baby bird does not adjust. ANd if he doesn't there is nothing you can do but give up. I dont see the problem with giving it a go for a week and supplying extra nutrients. My advice though is to slowly ween him off his set schedule now though. If he is up by 6 and sleeping by 7, wake him up by 7 and put him in bed by 8. Keep this cycle up you cant just expect him to go cold turkey. That's like you going to work, coming home and being forced to stay awake and work again, and not sleep for another 13 hours.

[Darwinsmom]

Whoever gave you that advice is a fool. This is not a domesticated animal we are talking about. Clearly you've enver spent time around an African grey who did not get his/her 12 hours of sleep.

the adverse affects like stated of inosmnia, lack of nutrition, fatigue, and disorientation can occour That is only the beginning!!!!!

 

But ya, go ahead and take a poor defenseless animal, risk traumatizing it, causing untold behaviour problems, and physical issues, and then when you get sick of it, pass it off to someone else to deal with. There are no words for what I am thinking right now, actually, there are but they are unpostable!!!

[JeffNOK]

I don't think you will get much if any support here for your plan to flip flop the time clock. Please remember that there is a time for everything in life. Perhaps this isn't the time to get a grey. One thing you will see over and over in this forum is that we adjust for our greys--not vice versa. They are the number one priority. I know you are excited and optimistic that you can do this, but please reconsider for the sake of this little grey who has no choices or voice.

Edited July 23, 2012 by JeffNOK

[Dave007]

Whoever gave you that advice is a fool. This is not a domesticated animal we are talking about. Clearly you've enver spent time around an African grey who did not get his/her 12 hours of sleep.

 

the adverse affects like stated of inosmnia, lack of nutrition, fatigue, and disorientation can occour That is only the beginning!!!!!

 

But ya, go ahead and take a poor defenseless animal, risk traumatizing it, causing untold behaviour problems, and physical issues, and then when you get sick of it, pass it off to someone else to deal with. There are no words for what I am thinking right now, actually, there are but they are unpostable!!!

 

My dear Zulu

First off, you need to understand that no one gave him any advice concerning that post. He originally came here looking for advice and opinions. He got logical answers and he was obviously displeased. That long post above was a typical copy and paste piece taken from a scientific article. Whether it's true or not is not important here.

More importantly, the poster hasn't the slightest idea what many of those words mean. His level of reasoning and intelligence is on a very low scale. More than likely, it goes way back to his grammar school days. A person like that needs to spend lots of time thinking up such a bizarre idea like that. It's time that was wasted. Who knows, maybe it was to much weed or a lack of love when he was a child or being rejected by his friends when he was young. Maybe he was made to dress in little girl's outfits. Maybe the parents thought he was a mistake when he was hatched.

It could be that normal daylight unleashes the weird dark thoughts that presently exist. Maybe his brain is now similar to Swiss cheese.

Now, he's back with a copy and paste hoping that it will reverse the correct logic that was already given.

Yes, he may get a bird but that won't last since what he wants isn't gonna happen. I understand that you'll feel terrible about the bird but just know that there's many birds that fall into the hands of mental midgets. That's the way it is. There's nothing that can be done.

Lets end this off happily.

Just think of this-- he'll have to come out into the daylight to buy a bird. His thoughts may be compromised. His inner spirits may not allow this action. He may be haunted by inner light rejecting demons that constantly lurk around in the holes and crevices of a Swiss cheese brain.

 

[Darwinsmom]

Dave, I thought the bit he pasted may have come from an email from the "breeder" (and I use that term loosely) who told him it was ok to turn a non-nocturnal animal into a night creature. The way it was worded towards the end sounded like someone saying "oh you can try it but it may not work" and appeared personal to me and looked like they had quoted scientific articles to help their point. Thus my comment..

 

That said, I agree with you 100% and I wish more people had any idea the damage they do when they purchase a parrot. There are scores of plucked, crazy, damaged birds out there in rescues, sitting locked in cages, mutilating themselves all because some stupid, dimwit of a human being thought they'd be a cool pet. These birds are NOT cool pets, they are wild animals that we've taken to breeding for their company. They do not belong locked in a cage, they belong with people who will adapt to them (though I do believe they need rules and boundries, we are keepers, not slaves of these creatures). The human needs to adapt to the birds schedule, recognize their special dietary needs, know that they can be destructive because it is their nature, and the human needs to give them creative, safe outlets to "be birds". They scream, they make huge messes, they chew and destroy, they BITE, they have temper tantrums.... and I for one miss all of that terribly and cannot wait to get my new baby home because I also know they are amazing creatures but ONLY in the right home, not in the hands of someone who wants to get a bird and deny the poor thing it's natural routine, deny it sunshine and fresh air (that UV light will NEVER been a good substitute, they are meant as a help with vitamin D production only, not a replacement for the sun!). The idea that this person will take a helpless baby and try and do something unnatural to it just to satisfy their own personal wants make me want to scream. It makes me sad and angry and I wont even tell you things I wish on people like this. I'm shaking I am so enraged.

 

THIS IS NOT A TOY. IT IS A LIVING, BREATHING CREATURE AND NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO DO SOMETHING THIS UNNATURAL AND CRUEL And shame on the so called breeder who would ever let this happen to one of their birds. It makes me want to vomit.

[Jayd]

The problem is so many people can read a article or book, and expect people to think there a expert on parrots let alone Grey's......

[wulfie]

My dear Zulu

First off, you need to understand that no one gave him any advice concerning that post. He originally came here looking for advice and opinions. He got logical answers and he was obviously displeased. That long post above was a typical copy and paste piece taken from a scientific article. Whether it's true or not is not important here.

More importantly, the poster hasn't the slightest idea what many of those words mean. His level of reasoning and intelligence is on a very low scale. More than likely, it goes way back to his grammar school days. A person like that needs to spend lots of time thinking up such a bizarre idea like that. It's time that was wasted. Who knows, maybe it was to much weed or a lack of love when he was a child or being rejected by his friends when he was young. Maybe he was made to dress in little girl's outfits. Maybe the parents thought he was a mistake when he was hatched.

It could be that normal daylight unleashes the weird dark thoughts that presently exist. Maybe his brain is now similar to Swiss cheese.

Now, he's back with a copy and paste hoping that it will reverse the correct logic that was already given.

Yes, he may get a bird but that won't last since what he wants isn't gonna happen. I understand that you'll feel terrible about the bird but just know that there's many birds that fall into the hands of mental midgets. That's the way it is. There's nothing that can be done.

Lets end this off happily.

Just think of this-- he'll have to come out into the daylight to buy a bird. His thoughts may be compromised. His inner spirits may not allow this action. He may be haunted by inner light rejecting demons that constantly lurk around in the holes and crevices of a Swiss cheese brain.

 

 

Well I can see that you have a serious issue with people that don't see things exactly your way. You're also very immature to have to resort to name calling, etc, maybe it's you that had problems as a child and didn't get enough attention. I really only have one thing to say, unless you have a degree in zoology or any of the avian sciences, stfu

[Jayd]

Well I can see that you have a serious issue with people that don't see things exactly your way. You're also very immature to have to resort to name calling, etc, maybe it's you that had problems as a child and didn't get enough attention. I really only have one thing to say, unless you have a degree in zoology or any of the avian sciences, stfu

 

How dare you, You don't know Dave, who are you to judge? He gave you a true honest answer, you didn't like it, that's to bad...We have a lot of fairly new members who walked in here thinking they can make statements like they know what there talking about, then ridicule the people who really do. If that's your purpose, then there is a number of other forums you might want to check out. This has to stop, it's hurting the legitimate caring members.. We have no color, we have no boundaries, some know more than others but were all equal...They'll be no more attacking, give your opinion and move on. You'd be surprised at what credentials Dave or myself and other members might have....

Edited July 24, 2012 by Jayd

[wulfie]

how dare I? I dare! For someone to rant like Dave has done, calling me names, and questioning my sexual orientation, and you seem to think that's perfectly fine. Nobody here give a sh*t about anything but THEIR opinions, they are right and everyone else is wrong. Well, I must say that the maturity level of this website is abysmal and I'll be taking my business elsewhere, I just hope and pray that dave doesn't call himself a breeder and fills peoples heads with all the b/s that he's been posting here, good day

[Jayd]

wulfie, pot calling a kettle black.. I agree you should move on to brighter lights, you made your point, now I'll make mine, Your not welcome here by me.... Please don't get a parrot..Sincerely Jay Please close this thread....

[aerial.2000]

Dude .... I have to say I totally agree that the opinions expressed here are JUST THAT. But they are to a degree (more then you or myself) very experienced and knowledgeable opinions from long time bird owners and breeders alike. You can take it for what its worth. I would totally trust and heed their advice! Isnt that why you came here in the first place?!? No one can tell you what to do bottom line but, dont think about your own selfish wants and consider the animal you would be getting and what you could possible do to harm it! There is no need for word slinging here no ones gonna be able to stop you one way or the other ... but in my honest opinion, it would be an impossible situation to attempt to change a wild animal to that degree, and you should get a cat like I said earlier! They sleep all day long regardless of light or dark!

[Darwinsmom]

how dare I? I dare! For someone to rant like Dave has done, calling me names, and questioning my sexual orientation, and you seem to think that's perfectly fine. Nobody here give a sh*t about anything but THEIR opinions, they are right and everyone else is wrong. Well, I must say that the maturity level of this website is abysmal and I'll be taking my business elsewhere, I just hope and pray that dave doesn't call himself a breeder and fills peoples heads with all the b/s that he's been posting here, good day

 

No, nobody here gives a sh*t about anything but the BIRDS. Opinions, egos and misinformation that cause an innocent creature harm will be met with honest, though not always pretty or polite, reaction. What you are proposing is cruel and inhumane and extremely upsetting for those of us who know a lot more than you do and can see the damage that this idea would do to an innocent creature, all because you want to put YOUR wants above the rights and life of another living being. THAT is what is vulgar, immature and reprehensible. And btw, you wont find a single bird site whose members agree with what you're proposing. Why? Because it should never, ever be done. Think about that before you damage or destroy a living creature.

[Jayd]

The valued members of this Forum has spoken. Thank you all for your honest opinions...

[Jayd]

If you re-read what Dave said, he never questioned your sexual orientation...That's what you need to do, is read and research for yourself, then present a question, and debate it.. We only receive what we ask for...

[wulfie]

No, nobody here gives a sh*t about anything but the BIRDS. Opinions, egos and misinformation that cause an innocent creature harm will be met with honest, though not always pretty or polite, reaction. What you are proposing is cruel and inhumane and extremely upsetting for those of us who know a lot more than you do and can see the damage that this idea would do to an innocent creature, all because you want to put YOUR wants above the rights and life of another living being. THAT is what is vulgar, immature and reprehensible. And btw, you wont find a single bird site whose members agree with what you're proposing. Why? Because it should never, ever be done. Think about that before you damage or destroy a living creature.

so YOU say, I've found many other forums that agree with what I'm GOING to do, whether you like it or not. If you want to get technical, you all are also keeping a wild creature in a CAGE, have you ever thought about that? And on that note, I'm off to a better educated and much more mature forum, enjoy your single mindedness

[Jayd]

No you haven't!!!!! Thank you, have a good life....

[congomomma]

May I just say that this forum has been very inappropriate and rude. I am a proud owner of my Red Font Macaw and with in two weeks will be help raising an african grey. I am very shocked to see that the moderators here have allowed other members to attack a new member who asked for advice on how to do something, and then join in themselves! If you did not agree, that was not asked, it was advice on how the person could do it and if it was possible. A simple, I don't agree and yes or no its not possible would've been sufficient. This will be my first and last thread as I am afraid that I will be attacked and ridiculed if I am to ask for advice. I have been a proud member of parrotforums and this is very low class compared to the forum I have originally belonged too. How can you as moderators, allow this and join in? It's sick and then you go to say this person has childhood issues and ridicule him? Have you no shame? You are low, classless people. And I agree with Wulfie that you are one minded. You see it as if you are God and that is a load of bull if you ask me. I am sorry to be rude, but this is just unacceptable and I wil be warning all others to stay away.

 

And to clarify, it is possible to flop a schedule, but it is difficult and if the bird does not go with the change it may get sick and weak. However, I'm sure Wulfie was planning to do it little changes at a time and provide the necessary vitamins and nutrients. It s a difficult process as you must control everything from temperature to the wattage of the bulbs, types of bulbs, length of daylight, and I would not substitute expensive bulbs to save money. It will be more costly, but it is possible. And if she can't flip its' schedule after a week I'm sure she is not going to force it to go without sleep.

Edited July 24, 2012 by congomomma

[Jayd]

May I just say that this forum has been very inappropriate and rude. I am a proud owner of my Red Font Macaw and with in two weeks will be help raising an african grey. I am very shocked to see that the moderators here have allowed other members to attack a new member who asked for advice on how to do something, and then join in themselves! If you did not agree, that was not asked, it was advice on how the person could do it and if it was possible. A simple, I don't agree and yes or no its not possible would've been sufficient. This will be my first and last thread as I am afraid that I will be attacked and ridiculed if I am to ask for advice. I have been a proud member of parrotforums and this is very low class compared to the forum I have originally belonged too. How can you as moderators, allow this and join in? It's sick and then yo go to say this person has childhood issues and ridicule him? Have you know shame? You are low, classless people. And I agree with Wulfie that you are one minded. You see it as if you are God and that is a load of bull if yo ask me. I am sorry to be rude, but this is jsut unacceptable and I wil be warning all others to stay away.

 

And to clarify, it i possible to flop a schedule, but it is difficult and if the bird does not go with the change it may get sick and weak. However, I'm sure Wulfie was planning to do it little changes at a time and provide the necessary vitamins and nutrients. It s a difficult process as you most control everything from temperature to the wattage or the bulbs, types of bulbs, length of daylight, and I would not substitute expensive bulbs to save money. It will be more costly, but it is possible. And if she can't flip its' schedule after a week I'm sure she is not going to force it to go without sleep.

 

Wonderful post, So glad you took the time to say hello and good-bye in the same paragraph...

 

I wonder? While you were joining, wulfie was changing their password, funny isn't it.

The info you stated is miss info and wrong. Every one hear knows not to give supplements, sorry....I see you might try researching before posting. Please give my best to my friends at Parrotforums and please have a good life.. P.s. It's a Red-fronted MaCaw not red font!

Edited July 24, 2012 by Jayd

[congomomma]

So let me get this, when you have a sick bird, that isn't eating or can't, you don't give them supplements to get better? You just let the nourishment deteriorate and live off hopes and dreams that will magically get better? i believe that is actual animal cruelty and considered neglect That's frowned upon where I'm from.

 

Oh and so what does Wulfie changing his password have to do with me joining/ Do you have a rule about no new members while current members change their password? I'm not sure I am getting the connection here. ANd and thank you for the warm welcome Mr. Moderator. I feel so welcome here (oh crapt that was sarcasm). You just reassured me that yes members and moderators attack and ridicule anyone who disagrees with your powerful Godly knowledge. Please forgive me... I am so crushed

[Darwinsmom]

so YOU say, I've found many other forums that agree with what I'm GOING to do, whether you like it or not. If you want to get technical, you all are also keeping a wild creature in a CAGE, have you ever thought about that? And on that note, I'm off to a better educated and much more mature forum, enjoy your single mindedness

 

I dont believe you for a second, there are not that many forums out there and dont think we're not members on others ones as well, the internet may be large but the bird world is very small indeed. What you perceive as single mindedness is simply a single purpose, to prevent damage to a living creature. The members here have ton of experience with birds. I got my 1st Grey more than 20 years ago. All of us know far, far more than you do. The only thing immature here is your unwillingness or inability to see what you are suggesting is unnatural and cruel. Dave's post was tongue in cheek to illustrate what a remarkably thoughtless and cruel thing it is that you are considering. You asked for help, VERY experienced, knowledgeable people gave you advice, you choose to ignore it...pretty much sticking your fingers in your ears and stomping your feet and acting like a 2 year old child and putting your wants first. THAT is the very definition of immature!

 

You will end up with a plucked, miserable, screaming, biting bird. I can promise you that. And then, after you cannot live with it any more you'll dump it on some poor person who has to undo the damage you did because you're selfish and immature and thoughtless. That's IF the bird doesnt become sick and die first.

 

And by the way, if you'd bothered to read, you"d be hard pressed to find any of us who keep our birds caged except for sleep. Most of the members have entire bird rooms, and aviaries where they can get SUNLIGHT and spend their days flying. Their homes, like mine, are covered in perches and swings and play gyms in every room with toys and boings hanging all over...because they are NOT caged. Why not? Because WE put the birds first and WE adapt to their needs and WE were mature and stable enough to know what we were getting into before we brought our birds home and accepted the very serious responsibility and commitment of owning and caring for a wild animal.

 

The very fact that you are putting your own personal wants ahead of everything else speaks volumes about your maturity level. That you lie and try to justify something that you know is wrong also shows what kind of person you really are. Karma is a powerful thing, never forget that.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Darwinsmom