Feathers?

[ariisamis]

Thank you everyone for your responses. I have learned that the breeder did not actually breed Whitney. She never told me this until now. Why I don't know. I love Whitney and I hate watching her fall which results in cuts and bruises on the face as well as the falls any falls are causing damage to her other feathers. I can't buy a smaller cage and I don't want to keep her locked inside a cage either. If the breeder had offered some of the money back maybe I could have gotten a smaller cage. My other concern is she will not be able to get away from any other pets in the house. I know they shouLd not be out at the same time. Also I know she is still a great pet however I don't think the breeder should expect me to pay full price. Anyway as a result my family and I have decided to return Whitney and wait for another. I'm just really afraid of a bad fall.

[Jayd]

Our hearts with you...Jayd and Maggie

[CLB]

I know this was not an easy decision, but it is important to be honest with yourself and your family.

[Sarasota]

Anyway as a result my family and I have decided to return Whitney and wait for another.

 

Are you required to return her? Perhaps she could go someplace like Project Perry? They have a huge African Grey aviary where she could have a great life, or they could find her another home. It's in Virginia. Just a suggestion: http://www.projectperry.com/the_grey_aviary.php

[ariisamis]

I have to return her to the breeder. I really hope that this was an oversight on her behalf since I now know she got Whitney from someone else. When the vet explained to us the problem with the wing the breeder was very emotional ans she did pay for the vet bill. She seemed to be very surprised that this was not just a bad clipped wing. I know that the breeder is in favor of clipping wings that's why she didn't think it was a problem when the vet said Whitney would never fly. She sold me on that before I joined this forum, but after reading and learning from many of you I prefer for my birds to be able to fly.

[danmcq]

but after reading and learning from many of you I prefer for my birds to be able to fly.

 

Good luck finding another grey that you and family will be able to spend many joyful decades with.

[danmcq]

To sum this up, I say genetics plays a big roll, You and Dave say it doesn't...

Sincerely Jayd

 

Thanks Jay. We will just agree to disagree then.

 

Just for informational purposes for others to browse, read and come to an understanding of proper incubation and what can and does go wrong at times causing deformities and sometimes death:

 

http://www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com/avmed/ampa/29.pdf

 

http://www.avianweb.com/deadinshell.html

 

http://www.avianweb.com/birdnursery.html

 

http://www.brinsea.com/pdffiles/Brinsea_Handbook.pdf

[Jayd]

Avianweb.com is one of my favorite sites. Incubation of eggs is a required subject of study for any breeder and is a must know concerning deformities. There's a number of booked learned people in the parrot world, but in Dave's case and mine,[and others] it's the practical experience that makes the difference. I chose not to add references due to the fact there was none directly addressing parrots, leaving the researching to our creative members, gene study is huge. Thank you for the debate.

Jays;)

[danmcq]

Thanks Jay, I have been breeding birds, not greys, for decades myself. The Harrisons link is about parrots and other species as well. Book learning is important. It contains the factual scientific studies done and takes the guess work out of what the issue maybe be when one experiences it. Thus the reason many of us have gone to college and become professionals in what we do. Book learning first, then application and experience to apply it and later perhaps start publishing your own scientific research and development.

 

Regardless of bird breed, egg incubation whether by the birds or in a human incubator, all follow common development in the egg and share developmental issues when things go wrong during that process.

[Jayd]

Thank you for the post, the info was nice. Sorry you miss read mine, I was referring to my references, not the ones you posted.

As I said earlier, we each have our own beliefs. Sir, I'll stand on my on laurels as you will yours....Thanks Jayd

[ariisamis]

Yes, the vet was saying that because Whitney is missing that bone it is the same as a pinioned bird. she did say that it is not done with pet parrots.

[judygram]

I am sorry you feel it necessary to return Whitney to the breeder as she already had a good home with you, I think her balance would get better with time as most animals learn to deal with their deformities. I echo Sara's suggestion to try getting in touch with Project Perry as they do have a grey enclosure that houses many of them but not sure if they would take her as I think most of them were former breeder birds but it wouldn't hurt to ask. I have been to see Project Perry and they are underway with a similar one for conures, everything they do for the birds is donated, they are a non profit organization.

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

Why would you return Whitney? Whether she can fly or not, she has bonded to you! Sophie can fly... a little. I don't care! She is my best friend and rules the animal world. Kiki flies everywhere. We all admire her ability, but Sophie will always rule the animal kingdom. I don't care if she can fly great or not! ( nor do the other animals!) If you wanted a bird that could fly 100&, you wouldn't want a bird! No bird can fly 100&, since most, close and lock their cages! Nancy

[ariisamis]

It's not about flying it's about her falling! Whitney has fell several times and cut her face. According the vet this will continue to happen for a long while. I am started to fell like some of you don't understand that even though I love her I am not willing to take this chance because of an INCREASED chance of her falling and opening her chest. As well as I paid a lot f money for a bird with two wings. If I had known this before. Would not have paid the amount I paid nor would have I had purchased this large cage that is no good for her. Would anyone buy a pure breed 3 legged dog for full price? I must do what is best in my house. I'm sorry to those of you who can't understand this.

[CLB]

AriIsaMis...sometimes the best choice is the HARDEST choice. It's not fair for others to judge you based on this decision. Having spent years in rescue, I understand that often doing what is right for your family may or may not be the same as for another. Please know that you have support in your decision.

[Jayd]

ariisamis... As I said earlier, only you can decide what is best for you. You asked a question, and you received reply's, some were harsh some weren't, but please accept them for what they were, reply's to a sensitive question. In my case I would take the bird or 3leg dog no questions asked, I have, some might remember we payed $600. for a macaw with no wing..... yet I wouldn't feel bad if someone else refused it as you've stated, This doesn't make you or anyone else bad or wrong. With that said, please take into account that even a healthy parrot is a expenses, yearly well checks, illness, a bird with wings splitting their breast while learning to fly, etc.

This bird is going to grow up the same as any bird with clipped wings, you just won't have the chance to let them grow back....Any parrot can and will crash learning to fly, any bird while learning to fly can split there breast, as far as your nice cage goes, it's perfect for yo baby, why not. You need to talk to a different vet. I'm sad to hear the word "Money" being used so much, I'll end this with another post... Thanks Jayd

A Parrots Bill of Rights -

I was supplied a copy of this when i got Alfie & Freddie & think it is very appropriate to have it posted here on the forum for all grey owners & anyone considering getting a grey.

by Stewart A. Metz, M.D.

 

1.GET TO KNOW ABOUT PARROTS BEFORE YOU BRING ME HOME - I am not a domesticated pet like a dog or cat. I still have the spirit of the jungle in me. I have special needs which you may find it hard to fill. Please don't learn these too late for my well-being. And please don't acquire one of my cousins wild from the jungle—it will jeopardize his survival and well-being, and that won't be a party for you either!

2.GIVE ME THE LARGEST HOME POSSIBLE - I am used to flying through rainforests or savannas. I have given up this great gift for your pleasure. At the very least, give me enough room to flap my wings and exercise. And I need toys for my amusement and wood to chew—otherwise, I might confuse your Home with the forest and its trees.

3.GIVE ME A NUTRITIOUS DIET - I need a wide variety of fresh and nutritious foods, even if they take time to prepare. I cannot survive on seeds alone. Take time to learn what my needs, and preferences, are.

4.LET ME HAVE A 'SOCIAL LIFE' - I am a gregarious flock animal—but I am not one of you. I need lots of socialization to learn how to act with you, and with my siblings. I also need to have adequate quality time with you every day—no matter what your schedule or other needs are. I am a living,feeling creature. Above all, I need to be able to have complete trust in you, and count on your predictability in looking after me—every day.

5.LET ME BE CLEAN - I may like to drop food or even throw it, but I need meticulous cleanliness to be healthy. My skin itches without frequent showers, the barbs of my feathers won't seal if they become oily and, worst of all, I may become ill if my food or water is not always sanitary.

6.I NEED MY OWN DOCTOR - You may not understand my physiology and therefore you may not recognize it early on when I get sick. And it may be too late when you do, because I hide my illnesses (remember what I said about my being an animal of the jungle, where there are lots of predators). And I need an avian vet—a specialist (no HMOs for me please). If you can't afford one, perhaps you shouldn't have taken me home.

7.PLEASE DON'T PUNISH ME - Just as I don't always understand your peculiarities, you may not understand mine. I don't TRY to get in trouble—remember, a house is not the jungle. If I do screw up, don't yell at me and never hit me. I have sensitive ears and I may never trust you again if you strike me. Hands are sometimes scary things to us (why in the world would you not be zygodactylous like us?). Even more importantly, we don't learn by punishment. We are gentle creatures who only strike back to protect ourselves; we learn through patience and love.

8.SPEAK MY " LANGUAGE" - I know you get upset with me when I knock over my water bowl, throw food, scream or pluck my feathers. I don't do these to annoy you—I am probably trying to tell you something ( perhaps that I am hurting, lonely , or sad.). Learn to speak MY (body) language. Remember that I , alone of all creatures on this planet, learn to speak yours!

9.SEE ME AS AN INDIVIDUAL - I am a unique and feeling being.. No two of us are alike. Please don't be disappointed in me if I don't talk like you wanted, or can't do the tricks that your friend's parrot can do. But if you pay close attention to me (and I always empathize with you, whether you know it or not), I will show you a unique being who will give you so much more than talking and playing.. Give me a chance to show you who I am; I think you'll find the effort worth it. And remember—I am not an ornament;. I do not enhance ANY living room décor. And I am not a status symbol—if you use me as such, I might nip at your up-turned nose!

10.SHARE YOUR LOVE WITH ME - Above all, please remember that you are my Special Person. I put all my trust and faith in you.. We parrots are used to being monogamous.(no bar-hopping for us!).So please don't go away for long periods or give me away—that would be a sadness from which I may never recover. If that seems to be asking a lot, remember—you could have learned about my needs before bringing me home. Even having a baby or taking a new job isn't a fair reason—you made a commitment to me FIRST. And if you think that you must leave me because you might die, provide for me forever after you leave. I may live to a ripe old age but I can't provide for myself. Remember I'm in a small cage amongst people who are not of my blood.

11.YOUR RIGHTS - You have lots of rights, but I can only assure one. And that is, if you treat me the way I described above, I will reward you with unwavering love, humor, knowledge, beauty, dedication-- and a sense of wonder and awe you haven't felt since you were a child. When you took me home, you became my Flock Leader, indeed, my entire universe –for life. I would hang the moon and stars for you if I could. We are one in Heart and Soul

Edited September 16, 2012 by Jayd
MaCaW

[birdhouse]

AriIsaMis, please believe that whatever else, none of us would choose to be where you are right now. I think everyone feels for the position you're in. I think everyone means to try to give their help & support, even if they can't find the most comforting way to put it.

 

The only way they can really do that is to try to figure out what they'd do. But they don't know all the circumstances so they're going to come to their conclusions based on their own lives. That also doesn't mean they'd actually decide what they think they would if push came to shove.

 

There's got to be a lot of emotion involved & it's no easy decision even if there wasn't. Please try not to let any badly worded posts make you feel defensive. Focus on what's important so you can get this resolved & feel as good as possible afterwards.

 

I'd like to suggest that you decide if under any circumstances you feel you would want to keep Whitney. Just & only what your heart says. If it says no, then it might be best for all if she goes back. No one has the right to judge that decision. Keeping any grey is a very hopefully long term commitment & it has to start w/the heart.

 

If your heart says yes, there are still plenty of ways to work w/what you've got. You shouldn't have to be out of pocket any more cage money than you've already spent. The big cage can be sold on Craig's List & very possibly make more than enough to pay for a more appropriate cage & w/money left over. You can get the next cage used, too. I know first hand there are plenty of cages out there that aren't more than a few months old & so, good as new.

 

There are other vets who will no doubt have other opinions. Trust me on that because I speak from experience. There are people on this & other forums who have worked w/handicapped birds. Their experience & suggestions could improve things considerably for you. You might want to hear from them before you do anything.

 

I wouldn't leave it be w/the breeder, either. Just because they've offered an exchange of birds doesn't mean you don't have the right to make a counter proposal. Especially under the circumstances. If you push a little you may find you're in a better position to make demands than you think.

 

When the vet told you what was wrong, everything may have seemed like it was crashing down. But you do have some time & some options, if you're willing to explore them. In a lot of circumstances, handicapped pets can be even more rewarding companions. However this started out, it really can still end up being a blessing in disguise. But only if it feels right & you can make it work in your household.

 

I'm very sorry it all happened this way & I hope you find a solution that works for everyone.

Edited September 16, 2012 by birdhouse

[katana600]

A lot of heart and soul has already been vested into Whitney and I am certain that you have looked into this situation from many angles through many sleepless nights. At this point you have so much anguish and concern for Whitney and what her needs will be going forward. I don't believe this is about money but any of us would be disingenuous if we didn't worry about how far we could go or how much we could afford to do for our companions. At this point, I don't believe Whitney has had so much time with you that she wouldn't accept a new loving home and that your intentions are the kindest and caring option for her to have that chance. When I brought Java home, she had a brutal clip and could not hang on to anything. She did hurt herself falling to the floor. If the vet back then told me it was never going to get any better than his, I would have been so worried about the cat getting her or her being hurt over and over again, I don't know what I would have done then. From my vantage point years later and with much more experience, Gilbert's flightlessness still pains me some, he doesn't crash to the floor but it definitely has an impact on his world view. I am just speaking for myself when I say that choices I would make today are different than choices I would have made at a different place in my life. It comes down to making the best choice given our place right now and I am sorry you are in this challenging place.

[judygram]

AriIsaMis, please believe that whatever else, none of us would choose to be where you are right now. I think everyone feels for the position you're in. I think everyone means to try to give their help & support, even if they can't find the most comforting way to put it.

 

The only way they can really do that is to try to figure out what they'd do. But they don't know all the circumstances so they're going to come to their conclusions based on their own lives. That also doesn't mean they'd actually decide what they think they would if push came to shove.

 

There's got to be a lot of emotion involved & it's no easy decision even if there wasn't. Please try not to let any badly worded posts make you feel defensive. Focus on what's important so you can get this resolved & feel as good as possible afterwards.

 

I'd like to suggest that you decide if under any circumstances you feel you would want to keep Whitney. Just & only what your heart says. If it says no, then it might be best for all if she goes back. No one has the right to judge that decision. Keeping any grey is a very hopefully long term commitment & it has to start w/the heart.

 

If your heart says yes, there are still plenty of ways to work w/what you've got. You shouldn't have to be out of pocket any more cage money than you've already spent. The big cage can be sold on Craig's List & very possibly make more than enough to pay for a more appropriate cage & w/money left over. You can get the next cage used, too. I know first hand there are plenty of cages out there that aren't more than a few months old & so, good as new.

 

There are other vets who will no doubt have other opinions. Trust me on that because I speak from experience. There are people on this & other forums who have worked w/handicapped birds. Their experience & suggestions could improve things considerably for you. You might want to hear from them before you do anything.

 

I wouldn't leave it be w/the breeder, either. Just because they've offered an exchange of birds doesn't mean you don't have the right to make a counter proposal. Especially under the circumstances. If you push a little you may find you're in a better position to make demands than you think.

 

When the vet told you what was wrong, everything may have seemed like it was crashing down. But you do have some time & some options, if you're willing to explore them. In a lot of circumstances, handicapped pets can be even more rewarding companions. However this started out, it really can still end up being a blessing in disguise. But only if it feels right & you can make it work in your household.

 

I'm very sorry it all happened this way & I hope you find a solution that works for everyone.

 

Thanks Val for putting it so eloquently for us and that says it all in your last statement.

[murfchck]

Here is my view, this was my decision, in no way am i saying this bc i may not agree with yours as only you know whats right for your family.

I will say i agree that you have more power right now with your breeder than you think. I feel if she goes back now, she would be put down or worse, put in a cage alone and ignored. I would think your breeder would take less now and recoop some money than to lose it all. Ok, now our decision to take in a disabled bird. At first it was out of pity, she was in an icky home sharing space with a litterbox, we had no clue how we were going to deal with her, our 3 other birds, our 4 dogs and our cat when she has a dead leg that hooks on stuff as she drags it along. It took her one day to show us her stuff and what she is made of! This is something our vet told us she was born with. She is 20 yrs old now and a joy who challanges us everyday. My point is that if her first home hadn't given her a chance, her outcome could have been much different. My other two big boys have bad wings also and will never fly either but that hasn't stopped them. One is 7 and his wing is frozen, the other is 5 and his joint doesn't lock so it just flops like jello. They were babies once too and learned how to manage a flightless life. Here are a few photos where you can see their issues. They are all rescues and are perfect to me!

[Jayd]

Here is my view, this was my decision, in no way am i saying this bc i may not agree with yours as only you know whats right for your family.

I will say i agree that you have more power right now with your breeder than you think. I feel if she goes back now, she would be put down or worse, put in a cage alone and ignored. I would think your breeder would take less now and recoop some money than to lose it all. Ok, now our decision to take in a disabled bird. At first it was out of pity, she was in an icky home sharing space with a litterbox, we had no clue how we were going to deal with her, our 3 other birds, our 4 dogs and our cat when she has a dead leg that hooks on stuff as she drags it along. It took her one day to show us her stuff and what she is made of! This is something our vet told us she was born with. She is 20 yrs old now and a joy who challanges us everyday. My point is that if her first home hadn't given her a chance, her outcome could have been much different. My other two big boys have bad wings also and will never fly either but that hasn't stopped them. One is 7 and his wing is frozen, the other is 5 and his joint doesn't lock so it just flops like jello. They were babies once too and learned how to manage a flightless life. Here are a few photos where you can see their issues. They are all rescues and are perfect to me!

 

Thank you and Amen.........

[ariisamis]

Thank you all for your advise and thoughts. I was not trying to be rude at all, I'm just dealing with a lot of emotions regarding this situation. I have contact the breeder to see if she is willing to give any of the 1500 dollars back to help with a cage that is not as tall as the one I have. Please believe I love Whitney and I'm not saying that I would not have gotten her if I had know from the beginning because I would have. I would not have gotten this cage or java tree until she was ready for it, as wells as I would have gotten something to pad her surroundings with to help with falls. Whitney has become a big part of my family and we would like to make it easier for her. Thanks again for your support, advise and understanding.

[murfchck]

She won't be a baby long and will learn to adjust to her cage in time. Meanwhile just pad the one you have to ease the falls. She will still be able to climb around and play. In a few months you will be happy you kept a larger one for her. By padding i am meaning towels, no extra cost to you. For now you could also limit your perches, food water, treat and sleep perch. Try the rope perches also, that way when she does slip, it would be softer for her to hit against. It is funny but my one grey, Bongo, who has no physical issues has more cuts and scrapes than my other ones. Just goes to show that having all the limbs God intended, does not make one more graceful than another. She will be just fine, think of her as having her wings clipped without the cost of having it done.

 

As far as the java stand you have, get a boing and wrap it around some of the wood to make smaller perches and much straighter places for her to stand without slipping. I had to do that on the one we got our macaw. It really looks cool too. Don't buy boings from pet stores, they gouge you in the price. Amazon or feed stores have them for way less. I get mine for 14 bucks each at the feed store verses 39.99 at our pets stores.

Edited September 17, 2012 by murfchck

[ariisamis]

Thank you murfchck, never thought of putting the boing on the tree, what a great idea! I folded a blanket and put ontop of the grate in the cage but it does not seem to be enough, maybe I will get a thicker one or put two. Any suggestions for when I leave the door to the cage open and she climbs to the top(she loves doing this). I just thought she really does not play with the toys on the tree it seems as if they are difficult for her to get too so again the boing placed just right may help with that as well.

[CLB]

I use a polar fleece throw..folded to fit it makes a fairly plush landing pad. My Panama Amazon baby has a habit of "letting go" on occasion...and subsequently falling to the floor. This has really helped.