oblivion Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 So I've been updating my original thread with my recent 'breakthrough' with Spencer, http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?190058-Greetings! but I thought I might get a little more feedback here. A quick recap if you're not familiar and don't want to read that whole thread - Spencer is a 14 y.o. male TAG I've had since June 2010. We're his second home and he was loved, but not given enough attention, so I hesitate to call him a 'rescue,' but he's definitely got 'rehome baggage.' His wings are not clipped any more, but flights are either plucked or no longer grow on his right side (he was a casual chewer when I got him - has largely stopped that) and never seems to have learned to fly. He does not step up and I only recently was able to give him out-of-cage scritches. Thus begins our story. It's been a few days since he's bent his head for a scratch, and I get that, because I've been involving him even more in daily goings on, and I'm sure he's overloaded a bit from that. Last night, though, I had his cage on a folding table right next to the couch where I was playing some PS3 hockey - in the same spot where he'd asked for scritches last week. After doing his usual of standing like a statue on his perch acting like the door wasn't even open, he eventually ventured out a few times (drawbridge-style door) and played with the 'dried pasta in a plastic bottle' toy I'd made for him. Over the course of a couple hours, he'd stand at the edge of the door as close to me as he could get. If I put my hand up to play with the toy with him, he didn't care. But if my intent was at all to try to scratch him or see if he'd want to step up, he'd retreat to the cage. Smooth and confident, or slow and steady, it didn't matter - he seemed to know if I was going for the bottle or him. Amusingly, he did let me play with his toes from the underside of the door a little bit. The good thing is that he did not seem 'upset' by this testing of the waters. He'd back up, but he didn't lunge (he rarely does - even in his cage - and usually gives REALLY good warning) and wasn't making his alarm noise. He'd gather himself on his perch in his cage for a few seconds, then wander back out to play with the bottle. I was also doing some work on a laptop at the time, and when I'd lean in close to that, my head and shoulder were right at the end of his door. When I'd do that, he'd quickly walk over - like he wanted to get on my shoulder or was going to make a grab for my glasses - but would always stop just short (which is fine with me - I don't want him on my shoulder, nor eating my glasses). I'd look at him, talk to him, and then sit back up and he'd just carry on. He seemed to enjoy the excitement and noise of the video game and his toy until it was time for bed. When I put him away, we did our normal beak-shake with a lot of 'goodnight!' calls. Overall, it was a nice little bonding experience, but it is admittedly a little frustrating to have him always retreat still. He really seems to WANT contact, but still isn't sure about it. My question is, in your opinions, am I progressing at a good pace or pushing too hard? Should I try putting my hand up near the cage and just leaving it there to see how he reacts? Should I sit on my hands (figuratively) and not make any move towards him unless he bends low again? Or not even then? Thanks for any input and/or encouragement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerial.2000 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 peeking in to read up on your progress wish I had more encouraging things to tell you but being as I dont even have my baby yet all i can do is say it sounds like you have the patience of an angel and are really trying and doing very well I say keep up the good work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdhouse Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) You & Spencer have a common goal: Spencer gets a happy, healthy new life. By that definition, you're both doing greyt! Maybe you're reluctant to call him a rescue because he came from a life of passive abuse. But that's what it's called for a reason. If you'd prefer to think of Spencer as a rehab, that applies too. Rehabilitation is slow & challenging. It's a process. It takes however long it takes & there aren't any guarantees. But there is a realistic possibility that persistence, patience & time can make good things happen. I think you're doing a wonderful job. You keep on plugging away. You try this & try that. You celebrate baby steps because you can appreciate how big they really are for you both. You're not upset because all your patience & effort hasn't resulted in a new & improved superfid (yet). Many, many people would have started to push when they shouldn't have or just given up long ago. I honestly admire the way you've kept the faith. Spencer may not quite have figured out how to take that next scary step in the process. But he's getting there. Which means whatever you've been doing is working. So don't stop now. Edited February 1, 2012 by birdhouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerial.2000 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I totally agree with that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblivion Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Ah, thanks. I'm not perfectly patient or understanding by any means, and in fact I'm sure now that I started off on the wrong foot (just look at my old threads), despite the best intentions, but I try and I'm always open to learn more. Still no scritches again, but last night we did share some Cheerios, water, and some empty-bottle tug-o-war. He is so very gentle when he takes food, that my 5-year old can even give him treats. And I know I've said it before, but MAN, he LOVES empty bottles! They seem fun to handle AND make great noises (on their own or when banged against the cage, bell, etc.) Here's a short vid of him going after one on top of his 'visiting' cage. Do you think he realizes he doesn't have 8 full toes? Thanks again. Edited February 1, 2012 by oblivion Forgot to paste URL. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdhouse Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 A good heart & good intentions are a must. Fortunately for all of us, perfection is not required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblivion Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) I just wanted to continue this thread with a few updates. One is the tale of his recent vet visit which is embedded in a grander story, HOPEFULLY with a happy ending - it is still being written: http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?194991-How-a-routine-vet-visit-turns-into-an-emergency. The second update is something that I noted yesterday. Over the past year an a half of having Spencer when he was less 'interactive,' he'd screech on occasion - usually if on the phone, watching a movie, or god forbid, playing an instrument and singing. It's not the 'OMG, the vacuum is going to eat me!' whistle, not the 'I've been around young girls most of my life!' squeal, but just a blood-curdling, nails on a chalk board SCREECH. Contact calling wouldn't stop it and of course we knew not to yell back or join in the drama so as not to encourage it. Over the last two or more weeks - however long he's been coming out of his shell more - I have not heard that screech ONCE. Even if he is in his own room doing his own thing and not out downstairs with us, he'll contact call back and forth, but luckily, no screeching. That. Is. Awesome. That said, we had a little setback yesterday after a very busy weekend involving not begin around the house as much as the last two weekends. His travel cage was downstairs and open and he was alternating eating and playing with his bottle, but he wasn't much interested in coming out. He got into a mood/mode where he was just obsessed with beating his bottle around while holding it in his beak. He was basically doing an Axl Rose 'snake dance.' Occasionally he'd drop the bottle and though we gave it back a few times, I thought it was a good puzzle for him to figure out how to climb down and get it. At one point, he was on his ladder and threw the bottle at my wife (BTW, I've mentioned before, I think he 'likes' her, though she only feeds him on occasion and doesn't play with him much). She went to give it back to him, and he struck at her and did his alarm cluck. Luckily he didn't bite, but it was fairly damaging of her trust in him. I reminded her not to be upset at him - if anything be mad at me since I hadn't noticed how wound up he was getting. She ended up going to bed (she said this morning she wasn't bearing a grudge) and after he clucked at me a few times, too, I coaxed him into his cage and put him in the other room to 'cool off' a bit. After 5 minutes, he seemed calmed down quite a bit and I took him upstairs and put him to bed with our normal, if slightly abbreviated, familiarity. I think there was a combination of potential factors which lead to his outburst - 1) an atypical weekend, especially with Anya gone to the vet (not to mention his own vet visit 2 days earlier) 2) frustrated 'love' issues with my wife 3) a 'toy' he really loves and seemed to be getting obsessed with and 4) me pushing bed time a little bit due to having been gone most of the day. A new challenge every day. Edited February 6, 2012 by oblivion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblivion Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Something cool last night - he was getting keyed up banging his favorite plastic bottle around again. I mean, really, I worry about the obsessiveness of it. So sometimes I take the bottle and put it somewhere that challenges him - by getting him used to going on the living room floor to get it or whatever. So last night, I was a stinker and hung it in a toy which is 3 plastic rings connected together. It was about halfway down from his cage door to the floor. I'd hoped he'd either climb down and get it, or shake the rings hard enough from top or bottom to knock it loose. This occupied him for the better part of an hour, which was MOSTLY good, but I could see it was frustrating him a bit as I really had it in there good, and his shaking from the top wasn't knocking it loose. Although it was frustrating for ME as well! He'd get halfway down the ladder and look across to the bottle then give up. Had he climbed all the way to the floor, he could have gotten it from below fairly easily. I was trying to encourage him, "NO, you've almost got it. KEEP GOING!" But it was pretty cool to watch him actually pause, size up the situation (his ladder down is not right by the toy, so it was very much a spatial challenge) and try something new. It is so neat to watch the gears turning through those sharp eyes of theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malikah Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I enjoyed reading all your threads. Wishing you the best! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblivion Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 Thanks for the idea. I'm constantly recycling old toys and safe household items into treat puzzles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Spencer might like a Kong with a challenge. For the zon I used to take a piece of raw hide, a wooden bead and the Kong to make a challenge toy. I would tie knots in the raw hide on the bottom, string the bead again with a knot, tie more knots up the raw hide, thread it through the kong hiding the knots/bead inside, and tie a knot at the small end on the top. The zon would watch me tie everything up and then would go to town trying to undo everything. He would work it until he got every knot untied. After he mastered undoing a certain type of knot I would throw a different one at him or wet the rawhide before making the knot and let it dry afterward so it was really tight. There were times he would get good and mad, throwing it off of his cage top in frustration, but we would just leave it on the floor until he calmed down and let us know that he wanted it back. It was incredibly funny when we did give it back. He would beat the snot out of it almost as if punishing it. I would love to see a picture of your creation. Sounds like fun for any bit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chezron Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I think you and Spencer are well on your way to creating a good relationship. Just the fact that you hang out nearby and are accessible are great starters. Just be patient, Spencer is working as hard as he can, and it appears he is doing an admirable job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katana600 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Spencer seems a lot more involved and active with that bottle than we have had the pleasure with Gilbert. He is just now beginning to play with shredded paper and foraging toys. Thanks for the video. We will have to try a water bottle to see if it will entice him. You have come a long way with Spencer. He is a beautiful boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblivion Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Thanks everyone. Katana, one tip on bottles is that if you can, go for a heavier one like from Gatorade or the like. Milk and water bottles are much lighter and can be easily chewed. I don't like the idea of him accidentally ingesting any of the plastic. The heavier ones take longer to actually do damage to and by then, there's a new one available. I missed video of it on Sunday, but I hung one of the bottles from a chain on his kitchen perch. It was the most acrobatic I've ever seen him - hanging by his little hubs on one foot and batting the bottle around with his beak and other foot. Seriously, these are the best 'toy' finds I could have hoped for. He takes to them like a Labrador to a tennis ball. It's amazing to me JUST how hand-shy he is. He was doing some additional exploration on Saturday and discovered our master bathroom. I'd had him in there in his cage a few times, setting his cage by the shower and splashing him a bit over the stall. When he rounded the corner and saw the shower, he got pretty excited and waddled over to it. So I opened up the door and started the shower to see if he wanted to go in. He had some troubles climbing up so I offered a hand. He was so excited about the shower, he actually stepped up, but as soon as he realized he had, he fluttered off full-on into the shower - which I really don't think he was expecting to do. He retreated to the ledge of the shower door and got excited as I diverted some of the spray over him. He REALLY liked the shower (he's pretty luke-warm about the mister). The few other times I've gotten him on my hand or arm, despite not moving at all, he's done the same - flown off after a half a second. If I have food, he'll come to me. If I just hold out my hand, he retreats. And yet, through the cage bars not a few seconds later, he'll gently grab my fingers in his beak or let me rub his feet or face. It's amazing (and important not to underestimate) how much security those bars grant. One other funny/cute thing from Sunday - my daughter joined me in 'the pet room' while he was out on the floor. She'd just gotten back from shopping with Mom and had a small carton of Goldfish crackers. I dusted what salt I could off of one of them and offered it to him. He was hesitant at first, but eventually took it. He LOVED it. He got to where he was just about chasing my daughter for the carton of them (she retreated to the couch and was fine). I did use another to try to lure him onto a step-up, but there was no joy. I saw him getting frustrated, so I eventually put it into one of his bottles so at least he had to work a little to get it. BTW, my Anya cockatiel is doing quite a bit better. She's putting weight back on and her poops are looking 'good.' I'll be interested in how her blood retest next week. Edited February 14, 2012 by oblivion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblivion Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 Had some kind of maybe progress with Spencer last night. He was up late beating the heck out of his favorite 'toy' on top of his travel cage in the kitchen. When I went to put him away, I tried to get him to 'step up' onto my hand. He backed up a little, but then actually stepped up. Then he did what he normally does - after a few seconds he fluttered off to the floor (hard landing on tile - oof!). Ordinarily I'd then put his cage on the floor and he'd climb into it, but I decided to try to work with him a bit. I followed him around the kitchen asking him to step up and when I eventually 'cornered' him, instead of getting bitey like usual, he stepped up. Then flopped off. Then stepped up again. And flopped off right away. We did that about 10 times. He never stayed on, but also never even motioned to bite me. THAT is big. I think it either means he's no longer THAT scared, or he's realized bites won't achieve what he wants - either way is good. Eventually I gently grabbed him with two hands like a QB taking a snap and he flapped his wings like mad until I put him in the cage - but again, no intention to bite and he settled into his cage for the trip upstairs with a quick tail shake. Also, earlier, my daughter had startled him by offering him a toy a little too quickly. He put his beak on her hand, but didn't bite. THAT made me very happy and I made it a 'teachable moment' about being careful around him and not startling him. He really is trying to be a 'good boy' and he loves hanging around us. And I am truly learning a whole new level of patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malikah Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I'm so glad that Anya is feeling better! It sounds like you are making great progress with Spencer too, congratulations!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katana600 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Your progress with Spencer is encouraging. I am so happy that he is better about your approach and before you know it he will surprise you with a step up. Thanks for the tips on the type bottle to try. He really loves the occasional sip of limeade, so that is the best bottle for us to try since it is associated with something good. I got one of the smaller, single serving size to try first. I rinsed it out and held it to him to examine. His little chest was quivering and he tentatively touched the bottle. I left the lid off to give him something to hold onto. He wasn't embracing the idea, he seemed more like he was touching it to push it out of his zone. I showed it to him and put it on the cage playtop. He hasn't wanted anything to do with it, but at least he doesn't seem paralyzed with fear towards it. He climbed upside down on his "ceiling" and poked at it and hissed at it a few times, but he at least is approaching it and moving it around from below. It will be interesting to see if he will get on his cagetop sometime today and explore. This is probably as close as I have seen him come to "play" just hanging upside down and pushing it around a little bit. Thanks so much for the suggestion. Edited February 17, 2012 by katana600 clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblivion Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 It's been a while since I've updated, but there's not much to say. We had a long weekend out of town, so Spencer and Anya were at my aunt's. I love that they both travel so well. He's been making a whole lot more 'birdy' noises since they've been back - I'm not sure why that would be. They do have a cockatiel, too, but it's not 'tiel sounds and he's never really done it before. The only other thing is that she has a litter of puppies now, so I wonder if that's his impression of puppy whimpering. My aunt and uncle love having the birds visit, but she told me that this time he totally fooled her with his barking and she thought the momma dog was having problems. Nope, was just Spencer. He settled right back in at home like usual - no drama. Things are pretty much on an even keel now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblivion Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) As I mentioned here, I picked up a new travel cage for Spencer since the one he came with is not much more than a carrier and sometimes he'll 'travel' for a week at a time. The new one is the white one in this pic: Spencer and his plethora of cages. by oblivion9999, on Flickr The one he's sitting on is his old traveler (his full cage in the background). I got the cage on Saturday and set up the dishes, perches and put his FAVORITE BELL EVER and one of his bottles in there and he readily climbed on top to play with the bell from that angle, but he wasn't interested in going in. I expected this to take a while, so I wasn't going to force the issue. Yet on Sunday evening, before going to bed, I tempted him with a bottle again, and he went right inside to play with the bell. I gently closed the door and though he remained calm, he GROWLED for the first time ever. I immediately re-opened the door, and he stayed in there, so I don't think I did any damage by closing the door, but it was an interesting moment. We haven't tried since then, but I think he'll like it sooner rather than later. Edit to add: I realize it's hard to judge the depth (width, actually) from the picture, but it is just about twice the size of his old one. The only things I didn't really like about it are the feed doors are odd-sized and essentially useless and the metal tray in the bottom is VERY shallow. There's a grate, so I'm not too worried about it, but I think cleaning is going to, ironically, be messy. Edited February 28, 2012 by oblivion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblivion Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 Just wanted to continue the log of my experiences with Spencer. There's not a lot of 'progress' to report, we seem to be in a bit of stasis as far as 'closeness' and 'trust.' Still, since those two episodes of scritches, he has been hand-shy. Lately I've spotted him putting his head down and rubbing it against a dish or bottle a couple times, but if I approach to offer a finger, he goes on medium alert and backs into his cage. He's LESS defensive, by very slight degrees, but still defensive. But at least he's not (and never has been) OFFensive, so I'll take it. Last weekend as I cleaned the two fish tanks, he threw one of his tows off his cage/play stand and much to my surprise, he 'took off' after it. I put 'took off' in quotes because he is still very much not flighted (more on that in a bit). He thumped gracelessly to the floor, but instead of looking to be in a panic for a way to get back to his cage, he played with the tossed toy a bit, then checked out what I was doing. He was VERY interested in the splashing water and would walk right up to me to see what I was going on. The moment I would show him any attention, though, he would retreat and get defensive. By now, the dogs (two labs) pretty much ignore him always, even on the floor, but I did have to keep a close eye on the cat. They were on opposite sides of one of the buckets and it was almost cartoonish how one would pretend to be ignoring the other when the other would peek around the bucket. He was out, on the floor for a couple hours. At one point I gave him a pan of water to see if he wanted a batch, but he pretty much just used it to dunk his toy. He very much wants to explore things on HIS terms. It's funny to me what will set him off. I can present all manner of new toys/bottles/paper, and he'll either play with, destroy, or toss them. Yet I got a hunk of grape vine I plan to use on a play stand (more on THAT in another post), and he is TERRIFIED of it. It's almost funny, but of course not. This is real terror. Maybe it's too 'snake-like,' though not any more so than the 'wacky wood' perch already in his cage. This morning, we had a 'first.' He didn't come downstairs with Anya and me for breakfast, so I felt bad just putting him back in his cage after breakfast and when I put Anya away, so I took his cage into my bathroom for some steam and contact while I showered. He's shown interest in the shower itself in the past, so I decided to try something new. I too the food and bottom tray out of the cage and brought the whole think into the shower with me. He was a bit noisy at first and climbed up into his 'defensive' position in the cage, but he very soon was back down on his perch and splashing around in the water. Good times. As for his flight feathers, I'd said before, and the vet agreed, that is looks like his right wing has been scarred to the point that he might not be able to grow flight feathers anymore. The other day when he was doing a big stretch, I'm pretty sure I saw a new feather or two coming in. That would be cool. Cooler still woudl be if he LEAVES THEM ALONE!!! We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malikah Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Keeping my fingers crossed for those flight feathers! After Kito chewed hers all off to nubs last winter it was quite scary as they grew back without others to protect them. Two or three times she crashed and had one dripping blood. Luckily I was able to get them to clot again with corn starch. I don't ever want to go through that again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdhouse Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 I think that sounds like a lot of progress. Although I know it's easy for me to say because I'm not living in your time warp. Things always seem to go so-o-o s-lo-o-w-w-l-y when you're living it. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katana600 Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Spencer's new travel cage looks plenty big for weekend travel and it is bigger than the one I had Gilbert in this summer when our two weeks turned into three months away from home. I did take a smaller cage and backpack for time in the car. On the cage he was in for the most time, I was able to put some ropes on the outside as well when we were in motels and while I was with him in the apartment. It doubled his space and he was very happy in his travel cage. Spencer looks so much like Gilbert, the posture and the things he does with you. I think we will learn a lot from your experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblivion Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 Thanks for the comments, everyone. Nothing new on the feather front other than I found a recently shed body or secondary feather in his cage yesterday. It was a mature feather, no blood. I was a little concerned because the end was chewed up a bit, but I don't know if he plucked and then chewed it or if it fell out on its own, he found it on the bottom of the cage, and THEN chewed it. Little turkey. He's had a couple more showers with me and he really seems to be enjoying them - he even let me give him a hand up to get on the shower ledge again - pretty rare. As for the new cage - he's still only been in it the once. I've tried to tempt him in there with treats, bottles, toys, etc., but so far, no joy. He didn't have a bad experience in there, he just doesn't seem motivated to check it out again. Maybe this weekend when I have time to wait him out, I'll put his breakfast in there. There's no rush, though - we don't have any long trips in the works right now and he still loves his small travel cage. One side note is that my 'tiel, Anya, is getting a LOT more focused out-of-cage/on Dad time since she needs meds twice a day now. In addition to that, she's getting a lot more flight time - something she had a lot of in 'the olden days,' though considerably less when cat, puppies, and kid came along. But I can now 'send' her to either of her play gyms form across the room now (with about 70% success). Not too shabby. My daughter is also getting a lot more time/experience handling her. Really, I often forget Anya's even 'sick.' That said, I just realized that tomorrow is her last day for her antibiotics, so she'll be down to just one oral med in the a.m. and 2 in the evening. Next checkup is next week when we hope the uric acid levels continue to decline and glucose levels are OK. BTW, we've had gorgeous "It's still technically Winter" weather lately, and they got some time on the patio on Sunday: Guard-Kitty is protecting the birds. (Ok, not really.) by oblivion9999, on Flickr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malikah Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Isn't it weird to be taking your fids outside in March? Loving it here too, but it just seems wrong. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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