Need Advice for Nilah!

[Talon]

Hi all, those of you that know about amazons, know they can be testing you way more than a grey can. I know you have to keep the upper hand with them no matter how much they bite....

So begins why I need some advice. Deep inside, I dread bedtime, I have no problems with my greys, most nights, Nilah likes to sit on me preening and being quiet, sometimes dozing, but when hears me softly saying, "it's time for bed, time for nuh-nites", she looks towards her 2 favorite places that I can't reach her very well without a step stool, then she flies off! I put the others to bed, turn off the lights in the room she is in, or leave them on, it really doesn't matter. When I climb up to get her, she softly repeats my words back at me about going to bed. Then she puts her head down so that I can rub her for what seems like an eternity, which I indulge her as it doesn't matter if I do or don't, she still pulls the same routine. Then when my armies tired from holding it up and patting her, I tell her to step up and it's time for nuh nites. THEN IT HAPPENS!!!!!!! SHE BITES ONTO MY FINGER, HAND, WHATEVER IS OFFERED TO HER and in that amazon fashion, doesn't let go just like vice grips...... I NEVER say OW! Or take my hand away, I let her hang on until she gives up, so there is no reaction by me other than, I tell her no biting, and we do this over and over, I fight with her every night to get her to bed. I eventually get her and try and hurry to her cage while distracting her with my other hand. As soon as she is near the door of her c age, she willingly goes in and says, "nuh nites" over and over while I cover her cage. Then I go to the couch to nurse my hand which feels like hamburg! This happens 99% of time.

 

I refuse to back down as I want to be able to handle her as she gets older and more hormonal. I try not to let her to get the upper hand with me, as she tries many times during her day, but this behavior is at night.

 

My question is, do I continue this with her? Do you have any advice, and am I handling the situation correctly? I can't leave her alone, she will stay on the curtain rod all night to sleep and I have 2 cats and 2 dogs, and Nilah loves to get into trouble.....

 

Sooo.....I need some advice!

 

Sorry this is so long, but I wanted you to understand what is happening, and this has been going on for a very very long time.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Talon

[Wingy]

Have you tried not saying nite nite and offering her a bribe to get her to her cage? Don't mention bed time and start with Nilah. Tell her "Lets go get a ***** "and put it in her food dish. Once she is in her cage close it up and get the greys to bed then go back to Nilah for nite nites, scritches and whispering I love you's.

 

You have created a routine where she gets special attention, a game of chase and has you at a disadvantage. She knows it too. Its up to you to change that routine while still allowing her the special attention AND a treat. Training is not just saying no bite but showing her how to be good and that good things happen when she's a good girl.

 

**When it was bed time I would tell the kids ok its time to get ready for story time. The kids would race to get ready and get into bed for the story. I didn't have to fight them on it like I did when I read the story on the couch and said ok bed time. The same things happened but the end result was very different. I had to make bed time a special time and not a chase the child time.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Wingy

[Ray P]

Here is something that we do with all our fids that may or may not help with Nilah. Because we live in a log cabin we can not leave our fids with free run of the house, we would end up with tooth picks. So, they are in and out of their cages many times a day and that means we put them back in their cages many times a day.

Ok now let me go back and say something I have always said and that is I never use treats to reward good behavior and I stand by this.

Now back to the subject. When we let them out and they are with one of us or exploring me or my wife will hide a treat someplace in their cage and never in the sameplace twice.

It could be something they like to eat or a small peice of wood they love to play with, Just something they enjoy to eat or play with.

When I say it`s time to go back to the cage Cricket will get all excited and bob her head and go into her cage to search for her surprise

It`s fun to watch her run all over her cage to find that special prise.

they do not have to see you hide it , they just need to know it`s there someplace.

We do the same with Corky and our two cockatiels.

We never use the cage as a punishment. We use it as a fun place to go.

This is what works for us. Hope it helps

[Talon]

Thank you! That is excellent advice. She does get special attention other times, but you are right, showing her that good things happen when she is a good girl. I need to use that more often with all my birds and animals.

I will try putting her in her cage without letting her know it's time for bed and offering her a treat as well tomorrow night.

 

I'll let you know how I do......thanks.

[Wingy]

Ray I love that idea.

[Talon]

Hi Ray, I agree with using treats as a reward, only because I have found that with Nilah, she prefers it if I make a big deal out of her 'good' behavior and will turn down a treat in place of my excitement and applause every time. So the treat at bedtime probably won't matter to her. She's very good about going in her cage any other time, just not at bedtime .

 

I would love to hear more about the surprise treat! I bet it's fun to watch them run around looking former. How did you first get them to know there was a treat to search for, and that is was in a different spot each time?

[Luvparrots]

I don't have trouble getting my zon to bed, but I do with Ana Grey. She does not like to go into her cage at night. But she will sit on her cage when I am putting Louie and Sterling to bed. I then just turn off the room light and she steps up nicely and into her cage. Granted in the semi-dark (door is cracked so hall light filters in and I can see) but she goes in nicely.

 

I am not a fan of not reacting when my parrots bite me and it hurts. I speak up and tell them "no" with lots of "owie, owies" . Louie use to bite hard with his beak tip. Now he just latches onto my finger/arm whatever but does not bite down hard enough to hurt. I don't know why he likes to nibble on me. A guy thing I guess. I believe letting them know that when they bite it hurts helps them to know what is right and what is wrong. They do so want to please, at least my gang does. Ana Grey especially reacts to my tone of voice and adjusts her attitude if I am displeased.

[Talon]

I have tried turning every light off in my downstairs, she doesn't seem to care, she will still bite when I pick her up for bed. I do tell her sternly, No biting. If I get to upset or excited, she would love it.....

[Ray P]

When Cricket first came to live with us and we were able to let her out she saw us put treats in her cage but that was years ago.

We never let them see us put them in there cage anymore because we hide them and they look forward to the hunt.

[lovethatgrey]

She sounds very smart and knows the routine well. She's telling you that she has no interest in going to bed.

 

The bite eventually occurs because you aren't understanding her and it seems to be the only way she can get her point across to you.

 

Have you tried positive reinforcement and stick training? Is Nilah food motivated? I'd imagine that most amazons are:) The treat will have to be VERY high value.

 

Mabel use to show her displeasure at bedtime by chomping on my hand too. Now she is stick trained! If she bites, the stick gets hurt not me and trust me when I say that a severe macaw's bite is nothing to sneeze at.

 

I recommend purchasing Barbara Heidenreich's E-book called teaching your parrot to step up. It is a very valuable tool and will help you and Nilah understand each other ALOT better.

 

Oh.. and here's what my stick looks like. This is an old video. When I ask her to step up, the stick is pointed Vertically. I love it!

 

 

Edited January 3, 2012 by lovethatgrey

[birdhouse]

Ray, have to disagree w/you about bribery, but love your idea about hiding surprises for the fids. Think it would be great anytime, just to encourage foraging & keep things fun, too.

 

I've always been somewhere in the middle about how to react to being bitten. Frankly, it just feels better to say something rather than try to smile & pretend. There's no lying to them, anyway. Some of them (Phenix) will continue to push for as long as it amuses them & that's just too many bandages later in my book.

 

So I wouldn't say I don't react. Just don't overreact. Don't take it personally, make it amusing, scary or a battle.

 

I also really try to ask my fids to do things. That means sometimes I have to take no for an answer. Nothing says I can't ask again 30 seconds later. It's just what works for me.

 

I really, really try to avoid telling them to do most things on the spot w/o good reason. Most of the time this approach works the first time. Except on the occasional bad day, during thunderstorms, or mating season or... lol I'm talking a more than reasonable majority of the time, here.

 

But bedtime is pretty nearly perfect w/this group. When I take out the container w/the treats, everyone evaporates into their cages. I make it a point to tell everyone how wonderful they are as I dole out their munchies & say our good nights. I like that very much when I'm in a hurry

 

But I'd rather spend a bit of quality time w/each of them first. So I gather them up in some random order & give each a little face time on their way to their cages (not in). Then get the magic container. Then say good nights.

 

I truly do believe it's good to communicate & explain things to the fids. I also believe it's my prerogative to cheat a little sometimes.

[Talon]

Lovethatgrey, thanks for the video. I may try that, I especially like the hand protector near the handle. Did you buy that? I think it would work until Nilah figured it out, the she probably won't step up on it, but it's worth a try.

[Talon]

Birdhouse, I have tried many times, walking away, then coming back later etc. she has her special time with me every night before this episode. I do tell her no bites, that hurts, but I don't make a huge deal out of it. She DEFINATELY understand, no and no biting, sometimes she won't bite after I tell her that, but she is smart and stubborn.

 

I think tonight I will try and act like its NOT bedtime, leave the cage lights on and see how it goes. I will check in tonight with an update.

[birdhouse]

I'm sure she understands. Good luck. I know I'm lucky to have found something that works w/this particular cast of characters. But I know how frustrating (not to mention painful) it is to have an ongoing battle over anything but especially when you're tired.

 

If you have a scheduled bedtime, maybe you could try putting Nilah in early while you work thru this. Aside from recognizing the routine, they just tell time. If I'm in the kitchen for any reason, Phenix makes spoon tapping noises from about 4 until whenever his food arrives. Just in case I need reminding that it's about supper time. lol

 

I just realized too that a number of people say they put their fids in the cage & turn out the lights. I've always put them up for the night w/something to eat. Given them the time to eat it & let them call "good night" back & forth w/me while I do the rest of the bedtime things around the house. 15-20 minutes later I'll actually turn out their light for the night. Maybe the extra step helps, if you thought it was worth a try.

[Talon]

Thank you Birdhouse for the advice. I DO let them eat dinner with me, in fact they WAIT for it!! But putting Nilah in her cage earlier may be just the ticket, and giving her an added treat might work. I will try anything!!

 

I didn't add to my story...but when I am not at home for bedtime and my daughter puts them to bed, she has NO problem with Nilah, She willingly steps up and goes in her cage, but if she knows I am home and my daughter tries it, she gets bitten too! BUT RIKKI on the other hand won't allow my daughter to put her to bed most times, she waits up for me..

[lovethatgrey]

@ Talon, yes. It is custom made from Exotic Wood Dreams. I gave her my specs and she make it how I wanted. I have a smaller one for Sachi too. They're made out of beautiful Ribbonwood and I am absolutely sure that it would take ALOT before Nilah could ever destroy them. I absolutely love my handsaver perches and never have STEP UP trouble at bedtime or any other time thanks to them.

Don't hesitate about purchased the download. I used to be afraid of macaws and this video really helped me get over my undeserved distrust of Mabel.

[Talon]

Thanks, I will look into that!

 

Just a Quick Update on bedtime tonight, as usual, Nilah was sitting on my leg while I was on my ipad after work. I asked her to step up so I could get up and go to the bathroom...(which she understands) and I put her on her kitchen hangout/potty basket. I DID go into the bathroom, then I came out, and asked her if she wanted to go upstairs with me, she went onto my shoulder and got suspicious and flew onto the coat rack in the front hall on my way upstairs. I left her and went up, she then flew onto my shoulder when she realized I REALLY was going up there. I continued to wal towards my bedroom, and she again grew suspicious.....and flew to the top railing. I went into my bedroom and pondered.......ah ha! I had the perfect trick treat..I grabbed a new pencil off my desk....her FAVORITE FORBIDDEN ITEM!!!!! Then I walked to the top of the stairs to go down, she began her famous amazon 'I'm NOT going to bed" strut back and forth on the railing......then she saw what I had!!! ON my hand she stepped up, and tried to get the pencil as I was wiggling it around on my other hand and telling her I was going to do work with it.....then into her cage I put her, playing tug-war on the pencil..I WON this round!!!

I left her uncovered until I got the other birds to bed, shut the lights off, gave her some kisses and sweet talk, covered her, then went on my merry own way.

How NICE not to be chewed up and battle her.....

 

Well, this worked THIS night, I am sure I will have to try something different tomorrow...she's much to smart.....

[birdhouse]

Yes, it definitely sounds like she read your body language & knew you were up to something. You still won the day & outsmarted her anyway. If you can keep finding her something fun to trade for the nightly bedtime game, maybe you've figured out how to win the war. Sounds promising, fingers crossed.

[Luvparrots]

I'm keeping score. One for Penny!!!! Hooray!!! Nilah certainly is a very smart little lady. Think of it this way Penny, she keeps you young and your mind very active with all that scheming, I mean thinking!!!!!

[Talon]

Thanks guys......funny how she sensed something...usually she LOVES going upstairs with me....but not tonight....her cage is downstairs...so this is going to be very difficult...I'm not that creative in coming up with NEW things!!!

[judygram]

Oh boy, the battle of wills, can Penny come up with a new item every night to entice Nilah back into her cage for bedtime, time will tell, round one Penny, now on to round 2.

[birdhouse]

^^^ HeHeHeHe!!

[Luvparrots]

I notice that you talk to Nilah a lot and that she understands what you say. So sounds like the night time routine has become a fun time for Nilah at your expensive. I talk to my parrots and let them know if I am P O'd at them when they do something I don't like. They do understand and even cock they little heads while listening away. So, it may sound silly but have you talked to Nilah about what pisses you off and what you want her to do? I have trouble getting Ana Grey to bed and turn off the room light to have her step up and into her cage. But the thing is she does know that she must go in her cage and so she watches Sterling and Louie go into their cages while sitting on the top of her cage. And once I try off the light she steps up without a problem. I do turn the light back on once she is in her cage. I did forget to mention that I always have their night time snacks in the cages before they go to bed. Usually some apple slices, or fresh snap peas, or safflower and cracked corn seeds, something of that sort for them to eat before I turn out the light in their room. Then I come back in and say nite, nite to each of them as they scurry to their night time perches before the room light goes off for the rest of the night. It is a ritual that works for them and me after a few trial and errors along the way.

[katana600]

This thread has been such a pleasure to me this morning. (Not the biting part for you Penny). Every home and every parrot is like starting all over again. I am enjoying how everyone in here has a unique way of problem solving. You are much more creative than you give yourself credit Penny, the pencil diversion was ingenious. We have scare bites and swipes here that are just instinct driven. I usually do tell them, don't bite and move them off my hand etc. But just once with each of our parrots, there was the leaning over and very intentional intense chomp. Something primal happened before I ever realized or thought it through, I just reached down and lightly pinched a toe with my fingernail and said "don't bite, it hurts". The surprise and shouting came from each of my parrots at the time and it broke the spell for the most part. Gilbert went through a few days of trying and succeeding to bite me and then would quickly hunch down like he was laying an egg just to cover his feet to make sure I didn't make that maneuver a second time. LOL. I can't imagine what you go through with Nilah, she is so smart and wants to be one step ahead of the game.

[Ray P]

I think this thread brings out something we all know and that is greys and amazons are all very smart. Some times to smart for their own good.

It`s like the battle of wits to see who sits at the head of the table, and I think we all love this battle it`s how we connect with our fids