Flawed logic - Used against Wing Clipping

[daviddogma]

CursingLlama wrote:

Saying that in reference to any subject shows me that a person is unwilling to really look at it from the other side becuase there position on that topic is innately "right". Proof is required on both sides of an arguement or else it isn't an arguement (debate)... it's preaching. And in a situation like this one there isn't any "proof" which is better, only each persons own personal opinion.

 

 

Again, if one accepts that the natural state of a bird is to fly then that would be premise enough to move this debate regarding wing clipping. This is where I am starting from. If you do not accept this premise please attack it. This was all I ever was trying to say regarding wing clipping. Maybe this seems like I am repeating the same thing over and over...maybe I am. I am trying to clarify my point regarding the sorcartic method, the great conversation, argument, debate in general. I know I break things down using analytical philosophy techniques, but it is the only way I understand how to have clear debate. One last time, if you accept the premise of the natural state for a bird is to have wings then why clip? I guess a better question (and I have not asked it because I didn't want to be confrontational, but that seems to have failed so here goes) might be, how do you live with the guilt of taking away the very thing that makes a bird a bird? This is a specific question intended for specific answers regarding this question.

 

Dave: How do you live with the guilt of taking away the very thing that makes a bird a bird?

 

AG Reply: How do you live with the guilt of taking a bird away from the wild?

 

Please, this is the sort of thing that moves this debate in a different direction. I do not believe they are the same thing. If you do believe they are the same thing than I understand why you clip wings. This will be the last time I post on this thread as I fear I am said to much and upset too many in the flock based on some of the PMs I have received.

[itzazu2u]

daviddogma wrote:

Tari,

 

 

I mean no disrespect, I just haven't read a reason why anyone has clipped the wings of their bird that hasn't been for convenience. I know this is an emotional issue, but if it is for safety, isn't that really for convenience sake? I am sure there would be an alternative, but it could be a more costlier endeavor than you or anyone else would want to endure. It is more convenient to stay in the home you currently have than move, for example. Please educate me on why you clip and it isn't just for convenience....

 

 

 

Dave

 

Okay...I admit it...I clipped the wings of my visualy impaired U2 because I am too lazy to have to dig a hole for her after she dies of a broken neck because she flew into a wall she didn't see. Yeah, it's a major PIA for me to watch any animal suffer with any injury, so clipping helps there as well. I won't have to deal with her suffering. Unfortunately, I have the same dilema if I were to live in a house with out any walls as there are trees she could ram into if she were to take off in a blind flight. Not to mention predators she wouldn't see to escape from. See, she is just as visually impaired in a house as she is outside where there are no walls. I reckon I need to move to some tent city.

 

I also have to admit to the fact that it is a matter of convience to me to NOT clip my CAG. Some cruel person already ripped his ablity of flight away from him when they tried to just cut off his entire wing. Sadly, I was never given the chance to determine for myself if he might be better off flighted or not as I leave this choice open for all of my birds.

 

Now, when I pick up my footless Sun Conure, I most likely will allow him full flight as it will be his personal mode of transport. Then again, considering he had his feet cut off and can not perch, he may be better off clipped since he has problems landing. I'll just have to see what might work best. Not that I really care, but what would you recommend?

 

There you have it. Matters of convience on both takes. Granted, most folks are only willing to take whole and healthy birds but there are some of us who actaully seek out the less than perfects because they ARE perfect. It is for this very reason why I choose to base my decision to clip or not up to the individual bird's ability OR disability.

[danmcq]

Safety does not equal convenience.

 

The logic is flawed, in demanding that ALL acquiesce to your conclusion of it all being reduced to convenience.

 

What about monetary,structural, handicapped persons etc. that have limited resources or capabilities?

 

Most individuals have one of these limitations and therefore it is not due to convenience.

 

Everyone must decide individually if clipping is necessary or not for their Parrot's safety.

 

Anyone allowing a bird to remain unclipped in an unsafe environment, I would consider as an irresponsible owner. The life of the bird is in the owners hands.

 

If anyone leaves their bird flighted and it flies into a boiling pot, window, wall or out the door into the Talons of a Raptor, is responsible for that birds untimely death due to negligence.

[CeasarsDad]

Excellent points Dan.. It's how I see it.. Although I would like to allow Ceasars wings to grow out for once..

[Talon]

danmcq wrote:

 

Anyone allowing a bird to remain unclipped in an unsafe environment, I would consider as an irresponsible owner. The life of the bird is in the owners hands.

 

If anyone leaves their bird flighted and it flies into a boiling pot, window, wall or out the door into the Talons of a Raptor, is responsible for that birds untimely death due to negligence.

 

Dan, I have said this many times before. Talon came to us with her wings clipped at a very young age. We let her wings grow out due to the fact that we have two bird eating cats that live in our house. It was for HER OWN SAFETY, that we allowed her wings to grow out. Being clipped, she could only fly and glide down to the floor.

I feel that it would be NEGLIGENCE on my part, if I continued to clip her wings. If I had, she surely would be dead and eaten by now. Yes, we have all the other dangers you mention, such as, ceiling fans, stoves, doors, windows, etc. But I am better able to control those things, than I am 2 cats that have been with us for much longer than Talon.

 

So it is really a matter of each individual weighing the risks in their home, and making a decision based on what is the best for their situation. One more thing, I watched Talon become a much happier bird once she could fly, her personality just bloomed, and I will never clip her wings again, even once our cats are gone.

 

Yes, that is my OPINION, based on what is best for my situation regarding Talon.

[danmcq]

Talon,

 

My position was not against leaving your bird flighted.

 

It is against convenience equalling safety.

 

I agree with your decision 100%. :-)

 

It is for your birds safety, that you let Talon become flighted.

 

I do not think clipped or unclipped is a bad decision. I think it is the responsibility of each owner to determine which is the safest for the environment the bird lives. It is different from household to household.

 

Since they are in an unnatural environment and do not know any of the Dangers that exist. The Owner and domesticator must make that choice based on sound reasoning and knowledge for the birds safety.

[itzazu2u]

Dan, go back, re-read my post. I do believe you and I are saying pretty much the exact same thing only mine is with a sarcastic bent, yours is literal. However, if safety is not a matter of convience, how else would you escape a buring building if there is no fire escape? If you are bound to a handicap, how else are you to exsist with out means of accesiblity which is both safe and convienent? MHO in this comparison is that safety and convience go side by side.

[danmcq]

Hi itzazu2u,

 

The posts are similar.

 

However, the example you used, is FOR the Handicapped person or for the Tenants living in the building burning downs Convenience and Safety, not the Owners.

 

My example is directly the opposite. DD was stating the Convenience was for the Owner, not the Bird. The Clipping is for the birds safety, not convenience.

 

Also, not clipping can be for the Birds safety, as in Talons case of Cat attack danger in the home.

[dblhelix]

I think the flawed logic is having a false sense of security in thinking your bird is safer clipped than unclipped. The notion of clipping in the US and UK in many people's minds is profoundly influenced by the breeding and bird keeping communities. Over the last 2 decades they have overwhelming professed it is better and safer to keep a companion bird clipped. I believe that as more study and information about the effects/pros/cons of clipping is being compiled the notion of what is generally accepted as "best" is changing.

 

My take after quite a lot of research and personal experience is that handicapping a bird is not likely to be "safer" for it. Almost everyone agrees that a clipped bird CAN FLY. If you accept that, then out the window goes the notion that "my bird is clipped so it cannot fly into that pot of boiling water" or "my bird is clipped so it cannot break its neck flying into a window" or "my bird is clipped so it cannot fly away". I would offer that a fully flight proficient bird is far less likely to fly into the toilet, a window, a pot of boiling water etc...because it can fly and completely control where it is going. They arent stupid. Not to say accidents cannot happen, flighted or not. More over, I have said it before and will say it again, if your bird does somehow escape, you are more likely to get it back if flight proficient because it actually can fly down to you instead of only flying up and away out of fear.

 

We have had fully flighted birds in our family for over 37 years. It can be done, with children and much traffic in the house, doors opening etc. Its a matter of making some adjustments and educating people. There are some risks, but my assessment is these risks are present whether clipped or not. I prefer to make other adjustments to deal with some of these risks rather than alter the physical state of the animal. On the extreme end, in some European countries clipping is considered similar to torture...I think that is extreme, but I also believe that the negative effects of clipping to the animal outweigh the benefits. Particularly since most of the risks associated with a flighted bird can be mitigated quite easily by means other than altering the animal physically.

 

I dont know for sure, but I think most will agree that if you can keep your bird flighted it must be better for them. That is how they are intended to be. You can see the joy they take in flying. You can see the satisfaction they get when preening full feathers. Cutting them off leaves them coming up short on the preen with the inability to zip the barblules together that is part of the natural process. They know something is wrong and they are right. Some birds actually fret over this to the point of self destruction (feather pikcing is linked). Think about it, a bird out in the wild that cannot fly is probably a dead bird and the bird knows it. Granted we are talking about captive birds here but the point is that clipping is doing something directly to the birds physical well being.

 

If anything, clipping is probably less safe and certainly less natural for them. Limiting them to ground travel may be more "natural" to us, but it is not for a bird under any circumstances (unless you are talking of some of the rare flightless birds). It is very unusual that flight proficient birds fly into windows or other things (wild or captive)...flight is their main mode of transportation and they are good at it, but it is a learned skill. I think many people have a subconcious difficulty in understanding flight and maybe even a fear of it. Somehow there is the thought that the bird is safer if we keep them in a non-flighted state and this may just be because flight is so un-natural to us. But rember, flight is completely natural for a bird.

 

Everyone must ultimately decide whats best for them and their pet given the living conditions etc. If you are going to clip there are ways to do it that minimize the negative effects. Such as not over clipping, cutting off ALL the barbules and cutting them at a length such that the cut end is covered by the tips of the secondary flights...Clipping is not natural....neither is keeping these birds as pets. Go figure.<br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2007/09/17 21:14

[TalonSis]

dblhelix wrote:

I would offer that a fully flight proficient bird is far less likely to fly into the toilet, a window, a pot of boiling water etc...because it can fly and completely control where it is going.

 

Exactly. I was just dicussing with my mom how Talon always flies to certain spots, because she knows it's a safe place to land. And that if she happens to not land in a certain safe spot, she will just fly around until she gets to another "landing" spot, or unless we put our hand up.

 

Melissa

[danmcq]

dblhelix wrote:

I dont know for sure, but I think most will agree that if you can keep your bird flighted it must be better for them. <br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2007/09/17 02:32

 

I agree you 100% on this Mark.

 

Very well thought out post. :-)

[Hannah_Rae]

I totally agree with safe clipping, but we need to know how to do it safely so that our larger birds don't hurt themselves. The Grey I fostered (that I fell in love with) had her wings totally clipped, and she fell like a rock, poor baby. After she molted, we clipped them correctly and she was able to glide to the floor safely.

[loviechick]

Thanks Dan, I really liked reading that.

[pearllyn]

I realise this is an old thread, but after the issues of wing clipping were raised recently, I thought I'd read through some older posts.

 

WHEW!!!:ohmy:

 

And that's all I have to say about that!

[Mistyparrot]

Of course clipping is done for the convenience of the keeper. There will always be special cases such as loss of sight when the ability to fly is obviously dangerous but for a normal healthy bird I believe it is much more dangerous for the the bird to clip it wings. A responsible keeper will always ensure that potential hazards are accounted for. For example if you have a toddler it makes obvious sense to have stair guards. you don't have naked fires. nor open doors or whirling fans.

You have to take similar precautions with a flighted parrot.

If you cannot do those things you don't chain up you children. Don't have kids and don't have fids.

Big parrots are not a suitable pet for a casual keeper.

I also think it wrong to encourage trapping wild parrots for the pet trade.

Wild animals should normally be conserved in the wild.

Get your parrot from a responsible rescue organisation or breeder.

 

Steve n Misty<br><br>Post edited by: Mistyparrot, at: 2009/10/10 17:52

[dhorje]

This is an interesting thread.

 

I bought a wings clipped Blue Rumped Parrot more than a year ago. He was such a clumsy flier. He crashed into wall most of the time and also suffered many crash landings. Thanks goodness he had never injured himself.

His feather grew back in a year and became a great flier. It is so much safer to see him flighted than wings clipped. I have given him to a friend who promised me not to clip his wings.

 

I am sure birds are happy to be flighted. I can't imagine how Koko feel if I clip her wings and she can't fly to her favorite playgym in the playground.

[Janfromboone]

Thanks Pearlyn for pulling this heated debate up. I hadn't read it before. I guess we are selfish to want to bring any animal into our home, but then we turn around and go to every kind of inconvenience and expense to make sure they are happy. Clipped or not clipped we love them. Their lives, while different than a wild parrot would have, are not entirely unpleasent.