African Grey - Domesticated?

[danmcq]

I thought I would start this topic due to some Forum Members use of the term "Domesticated" in reference to African Grey's being questioned by others.

 

When "Word" usage is called into question, the first place to check is a Dictionary for the final decision on the correctness of it's application.

 

Domesticated is defined as:

 

From "A free Dictionary by Farlex

 

1. To cause to feel comfortable at home; make domestic.

2. To adopt or make fit for domestic use or life.

3.

a. To train or adapt (an animal or plant) to live in a human environment and be of use to humans.

b. To introduce and accustom (an animal or plant) into another region; naturalize.

4. To bring down to the level of the ordinary person.

 

Domestication Process:

 

A general concept formed by extracting common features from specific examples of the domestication process.

 

The act of withdrawing or removing something from it's natural environment.

 

Category Tree:

 

Human action

 

╚action - Removal from the Natural environment

╚change - Behaviour, Diet, Environment and characteristics

╚separation - Separate from the Wild and Natural State and bring into Human controlled Breeding, rearing and training environment.

 

Based upon these definitions and processes described above. An African Grey Bred, Hatched, Raised and brought in to a Human Home or Environment, is considered a Domesticated Bird.

 

Therefore, the African Grey's we Breed and Purchase, are in fact "Domesticated".<br><br>Post edited by: danmcq, at: 2007/09/15 14:43

[lovemyGreys]

A very interesting topic Dan, Thank you for defining the meaning of Domesticated.

[CursingLlama]

I agree entirely with you dan that referring to a grey as domesticated is correct. Yes they do have tendancies that seem to be genetically "wild", but the moment you have an animal as a pet and it becomes use to it, it's been domesticated (I don't care if it was plucked right from the jungle)

[Guest briansmum]

thankyou dan for clearing that up. i agree while they maintain some wild instincts they are domesticated. if you put one of our hand reared greys, who have had their food brought to them their entire lives and have had no contact with any other birds or animals, don't know how to make a home for themselves or find food they wouldn't last two minutes in the wild. there for they have been domesticated.

[daviddogma]

Etymology happens to be an interesting subject of mine: Thanks for starting this thread, this is great stuff.

 

domestic (adj.)

1521, from M.Fr. domestique, from L. domesticus "belonging to the household," from domus "house," from PIE *domo-/*domu- "house, household" (cf. Skt. damah "house;" Avestan demana- "house;" Gk. domos "house," despotes "master, lord;" L. dominus "master of a household;" O.C.S. domu, Rus. dom "house;" Lith. dimstis "enclosed court, property;" O.E. timber "building, structure"), from *dem-/*dom- "build." The usual IE word for "house" (It., Sp. casa are from L. casa "cottage, hut;" Gmc. *hus is of obscure origin). The noun is 1539; domesticate is from 1639. Domestics, originally "articles of home manufacture," is attested from 1622.

[danmcq]

Thanks for the early historical meaning of the word David. :-)

 

Egyptians actually "Domesticated" Parrots and other animals also 3000 Years ago.

[Dave007]

Since the animal we're talking about here is the parrot and some here will make judgements and put classifications on their parrots by taking a word out of a dictionary it's obvious that some here need the specific and official classification and other information concerning parrots.

 

Do yourselves a big favor and play it safe and open this link.

 

 

www.avianwelfare.org/issues/articles/truenature.htm<br><br>Post edited by: MrSpock, at: 2007/09/16 03:56

[daviddogma]

MrSpock wrote:

Since the animal we're talking about here is the parrot and some here will make judgements and put classifications on their parrots by taking a word out of a dictionary it's obvious that some here need the specific and official classification and other information concerning parrots.

 

Do yourselves a big favor and play it safe and open this link.

 

 

www.avianwelfare.org/issues/articles/truenature.htm<br><br>Post edited by: MrSpock, at: 2007/09/16 03:56

 

Great article. It seems like the difference between domesticated animal and wild animal has to do with certain breeds existing in the wild. Dogs for instance if left in the wild would eventually breed (scientists speculate) into one thing, the common dog (I have read it would look like the dingo). There would be no more pit bulls, dobermans, etc. This is if all the dogs were turned loose left to run in the wild. Maybe I just dreamt this data up, but it is late and I have had too much medicine to validate. Anyway, the African Grey would continue to exist as it does in wild conditons. Now, and I know this is moving off topic, but....what about humans and race? Well, I will save that to my own personal journal entry. Can wild and domesticated be categorized this way? Or does domesticated animal simply mean there are no more of it left in the wild? This time I know I am on topic, cause I just looked at the subject line

[danmcq]

The proper use and meaning of our "Words" are based upon the definition(s) of them historically and through present day as found in the Dictionary.

 

The definition of Domesticated still stands.

 

The authors of the Article provided in the link, build a Case based upon the assumption that Parrots behaviour in captivity illustrates they are wild.

 

The questionable facts they provide to prove this is comparing them to Dogs and Cats. This is flawed reasoning.

 

Dogs and Cats still live in the Wild. Although, that fact has nothing to do with whether the animal or bird you have is "Domesticated" or not.

 

Dogs and Cats become bored too and if given the chance will bolt out the door or gate when given the chance and take off.

 

Dogs will run in Packs (like birds flock) together and establish a hierarchy starting from the "Alpha" down.

 

Dogs will run, hunt, breed and flourish in the Wild. Life in captivity for them is of pale comparison to that in the Wild watching them frolic, play, dig, dig holes as the safe birthing place for their young and then teach to them way of the Dog as the puppies grow.

 

So now, these Authors that have been quoted, are trying to tell me Dogs and Cats aren't Domesticated? Based upon their "Reasoning" of why THEY don't think a Parrot is Domesticated. They also just ruled out the Dog and Cat as well.

 

If you own a Parrot Bred in captivity, hand-fed, socialized with Humans and is dependent upon Humans. It IS Domesticated by definition.

 

Perhaps, if you would like we could explore the levels of Domestication. Such as Selective Breeding. :-)

 

The scientific community conducts great debates on levels of Domestication.

[danmcq]

One other comment on the Word "Domesticated".

 

Please do not use "Natural Instinct" to determine IF something is Domesticated or not.

 

All life has Natural Instinct and will use it without needing to be taught or trained how and when to use it. It just "Happens". :-)

 

The Authors of the link DRSpock provided, are using "Natural Instinct" as their "Basis" for determining Domestication. Which is completely inappropriate.

[lovemyGreys]

So True Dan & a very valid point.

[Guest Monique]

I have the opposite opinion. In my opinion, a parrot is not domesticated. They are only one or two generations away from the wild and retain the traits of their wild ancestors. Only by rearing them very unnaturally do we come across a bird that can be kept within captivity and many times they have psychological problems and are not allowed mobility (flight).

 

Looking at your definition the one they would fit under would be 3. However, I have yet to meet a parrot that can be naturally bred domestic without the training from near birth with hand feeding and extensive one-on-one to seem "domestic".

 

Would you consider Siegfred & Roy's tigers domestic?

 

1. To cause to feel comfortable at home; make domestic.

2. To adopt or make fit for domestic use or life.

3.

a. To train or adapt (an animal or plant) to live in a human environment and be of use to humans.

b. To introduce and accustom (an animal or plant) into another region; naturalize.

4. To bring down to the level of the ordinary person.

 

And the debates continues ...

[danmcq]

So, it does continue Monique :-)

 

I think you may be discussing levels of Domestication, rather than if any animal or bird is Domesticated or not.

 

You asked: “Would you consider Siegfred & Roy's tigers domestic?”

 

Answer: Yes, I would. They were born and raised in captivity. But, they are still Tigers and retain all their instincts and capabilities. Just as any Human Domesticated Animal or Bird.

 

You Wrote: “They are only one or two generations away from the wild and retain the traits of their wild ancestors. Only by rearing them very unnaturally do we come across a bird that can be kept within captivity”

 

Answer: That is the exact description of Domestication. It is how Dogs, Cats, Cows, Chickens etc. have come to fall under the term “Domesticated”.

 

Now, does Domesticated mean they are no longer what they were? They still retain their traits, instincts, physical capabilities etc. of their species to one extent or another. Which leads to the level of Domestication.

 

Just a few levels of Domestication would be:

 

[li]Unaltered - Retains all the physical traits as in Wild, but raised in captivity.[/li]

 

[li]Altered – Has been selectively bred or cross bred to bring out some features and reduce others resulting in perhaps several physical and perhaps mental characteristics.[/li]

 

[li]Genetically Altered – The science of today’s Genetic Engineers (Dblhelix) removing, adding altering the Genes.[/li]

 

I think you may agree that an animal or bird of any type, if taken as baby from the Wild or Birthed in captivity, raised by Humans and socialized with them, are Domesticated to some level. :-)

[loviechick]

Great topic Dan! Very informative!

[DayosMom]

This thread is very interesting. Food for thought.

 

I like to see each person's idea of what "domesticated" is. Each person has a different view of the actual definition of the word. It doesn't make any one right, or wrong. It's the interpretation the person has of the definition of a word.

 

Each one has a different angle they see. Although the actual definition was discussed here, we still implement our own understanding to the definition. We as humans, tend to listen to the facts, and then soften it up in our own understanding. This is how we learn, and expand our knowledge of a subject. Then, our own life's experiences tend to creep in, and influence how we make the word functional in our world. (lives)

 

Dan has made a very well rounded picture of "fact" in defining "domestication." Our own thoughts, level of knowledge, and emotional experiences in digesting knowledge will take on a different picture (form) in each ones mind.

 

Lets get some more thoughts, and input on this so we all can understand the meaning, and application on a personal level. Lets discover how the definition takes on different forms and shapes in a uniquely individual way.

 

"Need more input."

 

Good job honey!! Karma to you!

KimMcQ

 

Post edited by: DayosMom, at: 2007/09/21 06:50<br><br>Post edited by: DayosMom, at: 2007/09/21 06:52