Pi_1 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Hi all, not sure if you'll remember or not, but a few months ago I came here for advice when our Grey (Betsy) almost died due to trouble breathing. We had a very bad experience with the emergency vet, and me, being a med student, ended up probably saving her life by giving her an IV at home since the emergency vet kicked us out and refused to treat her if we didn't pay them thousands up front (after already paying them over $1500 the previous night). Anyhow, she survived and seemed to go back to normal. Well at the time we thought it was a bad reaction from my fiance using a (supposedly safe) carpet cleaner. Obviously we discontinued using it (not that we used it often anyway). About a month later, however, she had another attack with no provocation. I was away on business, so my fiance brought her to a vet and she was given a medication called "aminophyllin". We were instructed to give it to her twice a day at a dose of 20 Mg. While at the vet they also gave her albuterol, which made her vomit over and over but seemed to clear up the breathing issue. The first time she experienced it, nothing - not even a steroid, seemed to help. So we got her home and she seemed fine for a couple of weeks, but then the wheezing started to show up again. Not bad, but you could hear it on and off. She'd be fine for a couple of days, then it would pop up again. So we kept giving her the medication, but it hasn't seemed to do anything at all. It has gotten to the point now where she wheezes every day. It comes and goes in an instant. She'll be fine one second, then wheezing badly the next, then 20 minutes later it will stop in an instant. Then she'll be fine and playing and running around for hours.....and all of a sudden she'll wake up in the middle of the night wheezing again. It seems to make no difference whether she has taken the medication or not. So we asked the vet again and were told she must be allergic to something, but that it is impossible to test a bird for allergies, so just try to minimize contact with allergens and keep giving her the medication. But I want to find out what this is and not have to medicate her twice a day for the rest of her life. I also worry one day when I'm not home it will get really bad again and she'll die. The vet doesn't seem too concerned and just tell me to bring her in if she gets bad, but that seems to make her even worse from the stress. So I decided to try and figure out what was causing it. We stopped using ALL cleaning products, we cleaned her cage thoroughly outside with water, we cleaned all surfaces with water that had been previously cleaned with cleaners. We stopped cooking at home completely (concerned about the oven). We opened the windows to clear the air out (and when that didn't work, we also tried keeping them closed and an air filter on). We stopped wearing deodorant and perfumes. We stopped feeding her everything but sunflower seeds and pellets (for fear of a food allergy - especially to the nuts). We gave her a bath even though she HATES them. We've done EVERYTHING we can think of, but nothing has helped. Luckily it hasn't gotten too bad recently (in relation to the first time), but she obviously has great difficulty breathing during the worst episodes. And again, the vet says there is nothing we can do. And considering the vet is over 2 hours away it just isn't reasonable to expect us to bring her in every time this happens, especially when they aren't even doing anything..... The only think left I can think of is that we have some sort of mold or something in the house - but it was just completely remodeled a couple of years ago and we keep it SPOTLESS, so it just doesn't seem plausible to me. Not to mention she was fine for the first 8 months or so we lived here. Does anyone have ANY ideas? I'm getting REALLY concerned here..... By the way, if you'd like to read over the initial incident, the post is here: http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?193564-Advice-Help-With-Wheezing-Grey/page7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave007 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 (edited) This wheezing sounds like a long lasting sinus infection or lung activity. Sometimes the lungs wind up not working to their optimum. Some vets give nebulizers. Sinus infections can include asthyma just like what people can get. There's a variety of drugs that can be used. Some vets use Muco-mist or Acytlesystine or baytril but only your vet can make that decision. These types of meds open up the air sacks. Even though there are other drugs only an exam will decide if they can be used. Your bird may have an allergy to it's own dander. That does happen with different species of birds. Your bird may have been left with a partial, permanent wheeze from past bouts with it. With that type of condition, signs of past nasal problems will come back once in a while and leave just as quickly. It's really hard to give good advice other than to say that any type of breathing problems or sinus problems or Side effects from meds need to be checked by a vet, preferably an Avian Vet. I don't know where you live but in many states there are clinics that will help for a lower price. I'm sorry that you're getting an uncaring vet. Many are out there and the only thing is money, money, money. I wish there was more that I can offer but I'm not a vet. Good luck. Wishing you the best. Edited October 25, 2011 by Dave007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pi_1 Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 (edited) Thanks for the response. I should have elaborated more I guess but was in a hurry earlier - I apologize. It is not an infection. It also isn't a problem with the nasal passages or sinuses. The problem lies fairly far down her esophagus - but not in her lungs. The vet says that there is no damage to the area, but that an allergy to something is causing it to become inflamed and constricted. We've had her to the vet multiple times for this now, and they just want us to keep giving her the current medication. They have told us nothing further can be done, and just to try and figure out what is causing the allergic reaction. They doubt it is her own dander - I suggested that last time we were there......and when we cleaned her cage and gave her a bath I think she would have improved at least for a short time if it were the dander. So really there is nothing more to be done or to discuss at the vet - they won't prescribe any other medication and just want us to keep treating her with the current stuff and to bring her in for an injection if it gets REALLY bad. I'm not willing to just keep medicating her for life, however, if it isn't necessary. That's why I've come here....to inquire about allergies. I was hoping perhaps I missed something that could be causing this reaction and that someone would have some suggestions..... And regarding the vet, this current one isn't so bad and has an avian vet there......the only bad thing is that it is over 2 hours away. The bad one I was speaking of was the emergency vet near us that saw her during the initial emergency. Money isn't an object for us (within reason). It was just that during an emergency on a Saturday night who the heck has over $2000 liquid cash available to give an emergency vet (they only accept cash)? It was ridiculous......especially since we had just paid them in excess of $1500 the night before! So no, we're not worried about spending money on her....I just mentioned it because that emergency vet kicked us out on the street with no treatment when we didn't have enough cash available at 2AM on a Saturday night. They wouldn't treat her at ALL unless we paid for the entire $2000+ "treatment plan" - and that was just to treat her from 2AM until 6AM! Edited October 25, 2011 by Pi_1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pi_1 Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 Oh, and the nebulizer treatment made it MUCH worse......we tried it with a hot shower and the vet tried it with their machine and it just worsened her issues...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLB Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 This is terrible. I am so sorry you are having so much trouble. This may not mean anything, but when desperate times.....my boys have always had respiratory issues. One has asthma the other has chronic croup. During an episode, the asthma kid responds well to nebulizer, the croup kid often responds well to cold air (like stand in front of the open freezer) then warm moist air. Like I said, I don't know if this is any help at all, just thinking outside the box. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pi_1 Posted November 1, 2011 Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) So we've taken her to the vet twice since I last posted but it is just an exercise in futility. All they do is give her a shot of a steroid and the same aminophyllin we give her at home and send us on our not-so-merry way. Betsy has been worse the last couple of days and I'm worried. The vet thinks she is allergic to something and just says to keep treating her with the aminophyllin, although I don't see what else it could possibly be, and the medication does absolutely nothing for her wheezing. I asked for Albuterol instead but they wouldn't give it to me. We even moved her to the other side of the house - to our bedroom - and no difference. It is frustrating because the vet only treats the symptoms and not the overall problem. And they want us to bring her in constantly, which just leads to more stress - and then they do absolutely NOTHING but weigh her, listen to her chest, and tell us the exact same thing as the previous 5 times we brought her in. They said we could start giving her harsh anti-fungals in case it is a fungal infection, but that they don't think that is the case and it could kill her. They said we could do further blood tests, but that they would have to send them out to be done, and it would take up to a month to get back. Not only that, the tests are $1800 and need to be paid up front......and they only test for 3 rare things - Radon exposure, Chlamydia, and some other nonsense.....they don't even test for a fungal infection........ I started her on an antibiotic myself since they don't seem to be willing to do anything......but no change. Any ideas? These vets are just worthless........ Edited November 2, 2011 by Pi_1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave007 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 There's really only one thing to recommend here since any further help isn't available and I know you're not gonna like this. There's many people here that have had many different problems ( serious and not so serious) with their birds. They've gone to avain vets and have been seriously disappointed. Sometimes they're also told that there's nothing that can be done by the present vet. The next step that was recommended to them was to find another avian vet who may have a totally different way to deal with the problem. This not only happens with animal vets but it also happens with specialists who deal with people. They may be specioalists but that doesn't mean that they're always right. Yes, I know it's expensive but I can't think of anything else to suggest. I'm not a vet so there's only so much that can be suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pi_1 Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 There's really only one thing to recommend here since any further help isn't available and I know you're not gonna like this. There's many people here that have had many different problems ( serious and not so serious) with their birds. They've gone to avain vets and have been seriously disappointed. Sometimes they're also told that there's nothing that can be done by the present vet. The next step that was recommended to them was to find another avian vet who may have a totally different way to deal with the problem. This not only happens with animal vets but it also happens with specialists who deal with people. They may be specioalists but that doesn't mean that they're always right. Yes, I know it's expensive but I can't think of anything else to suggest. I'm not a vet so there's only so much that can be suggested. Yes, I have considered that often.......the problem being the current vet is already 2 hours away and going to another would mean a lot of hours in the car - I'd have to drive down to Detroit.......and the vet there has a couple week waiting list to get new birds in - then we're looking at 2 weeks to get new tests done - so by the time they would do anything it would be another month, and with the situation getting worse I worry we don't have the luxury of that much time. I also just don't know if the stress of a 6 hour car ride plus the time spent at the vet is worth any potential benefit. When we leave the current vet I'm always extremely worried. The stress makes her far worse and I was concerned she was going to stop breathing it was so bad yesterday. Not to mention the other vet said they would want to do all the tests again, so we'd need new x-rays, new blood work, etc - which would mean anesthetizing her.......not something I'd really like to do for obvious reasons. I don't know how to proceed - I'm frustrated and worried. Just an update, I took her to the vet AGAIN yesterday and asked that she get a steroid injection. After the steroid, she was fine and back to her old self for around 24 hours - playing, drinking and eating like CRAZY, sleeping (since she hasn't been getting much if any sleep due to the breathing issues), then the wheezing started again. The current vet won't prescribe a steroid for regular use, but I talked her into prescribing a different bronchodilator and an anithistamine. We'll see how this works. The main problem is that the vet doesn't seem concerned at all and is happy to wait weeks upon weeks with no treatment while Betsy gets worse. I think the situation is far more urgent than that, especially if it isn't just an allergic reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pi_1 Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 Anyone here have any experience with Aspergillosis fungal infections, by the way? If so, do Betsy's symptoms sound like they could be caused by a fungal infection? Our vet says it cannot be reliably tested for, but I'm starting to get concerned this is not just an allergy problem....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pi_1 Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 Something off the cuff and maybe nothing but what are you using to line Betsy's cage with? Well, we used to use "Yesterday's News", but lately have not been lining it with anything and have been cleaning it every couple of days (with water). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pi_1 Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 Here are some some things that could cause irritation/allergy/respiratory symptoms in people that most don't think of. Heat/ac ducts, tap water, colorings, preservatives, carpeting, wood, vinyl flooring, laminate flooring, memory foam mattresses and toppers, shiny coated magazine/book covers, soy. The list is pretty long and it would be hard to remove everything that could potentially cause an allergic reaction but what you can do is keep a journal of what you and she do, eat etc with times and when the episodes happen to see if you can find a pattern. Is she sitting on a particular perch, prefer a certain color pellet, play with a certain toy, were you in a particular place. Write everything down and see if you can find something that might be setting her off. Its not a joke but try and connect the dots like a real life game of Clue. We've pretty much eliminated everything we can......there is no rhyme or reason to the wheezing, although she seems to wake up with it more often at night. We don't have any heating ducts, so that can't be the issue. We've lived in the same place with the same furniture since she was little. We eliminated everything but pellets from her diet, give her bottled water, changed rooms, took all her toys away, etc......nothing. I'm really beginning to think it isn't an allergy at all and is perhaps a fungal infection. The antibiotics haven't worked and even though her cage is kept spotless and she's never been in contact with another bird, I don't see what else could be cauing this. I think we've eliminated all reasonable possible sources. We even paid to have the place tested for radon. And since the bronchodilators do absolutely nothing for her.....well.....I'm thinking the vet must be misdiagnosing this. I'm going to go down there and talk with them again tomorrow. This is just getting worse and I think their attitude of wait, wait, wait, and only treating the symptoms is ridiculous. She's going to end up dying because we sat around waiting so long with no treatment......... I'd like to bring her to another vet but that would mean waiting even longer to get any treatment....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pi_1 Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 Heck, we even stopped cooking at home completely........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pi_1 Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 Anyone with any thoughts on the type of fungal infection I mentioned? They say there's no reliable way to test for it so I'm thinking of starting treatment blind and seeing how it goes......I'd rather her die while being aggressive in treatment than sit around and let her deteriorate and wish I had done more....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danmcq Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Dave has given great comments. My only thoughts following this thread from the beginning go back to the first incident with the carpet cleaning. Until that point in time, no respiratory problems existed from what I have read. It would seem most likely that the chemicals were indeed inhaled and caused enough damage to just about kill her. Now after the recuperation, the damaged tissue/lungs etc. have flare up's that will probably continue for life. Not being a vet, I would still think they could use a scope and/or xrays to look for scar tissue. It just seems too coincidental that a fungus issue occurred at the same point in time the carpeting cleaning took place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywings Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 I agree with Dave's assessment, it all began with a chemical irritation or burn in the esophagus. The wheezing is when it becomes irritated or inflamed perhaps due to an inhalant, perhaps food irritates it on the way down or it could be an allergy. The journal may be your best way of getting a handle on the triggers and perhaps a holistic or homeopathic approach might provide some relief. Do keep us informed and we all want Betsy to get better I know this is a scary time for you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pi_1 Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 The vet has checked and says there is no damage to her airway, just inflammation. She says the carpet cleaner may have stressed her, causing an underlying condition to surface, but that the actual cleaner did no permanent damage. Or she says it could just be a coincidence. She thinks this not only due to the tests she has run (including x-rays and examination on the airway with a scope), but also because once the initial wheezing stopped, she was fine for weeks without incident. I'm also thinking another issue developed during that time from the extreme stress she was under. Regarding homeopathy, I think you're mixing it up with meaning "natural". Homeopathy is complete nonsense - it theorizes that the more you dilute a medication, the stronger it becomes. So when you purchase a homeopathic product, you're basically buying water. Whatever substance may or may not have been in it at one time is diluted so much there is none left. Utter rubbish.....no offense. As I said, I think you're mixing up the terms. Antibiotics have not helped, so that fingus, being the most common caiuse of respiratory distress in birds, was my main worry. The vet says that if she did indeed have the fungus, the steroid would not help her. In reality it is the ONLY thing that helps, and returns her to her normal self for 24-72 hours after dosing. Anyone familiar with steroids and fungal infections? Is this true? I tend to think the steroid would decrease inflammation caused by growth of the fungus, then when it wears off she would go back to having issues.......which is exactly what is happening. There is just no rhyme or reason to the wheezing whatsoever. It happens whether she eats or doesn't......in fact, it often happens when she has been sound asleep for hours. I don't believe it is environmental at this point, especially when it is getting worse now. An y thoughts much appreciated as always...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pi_1 Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 The wheezing is pretty constant now and has gotten worse since the last vet visit. She now ants me to bring her in yet AGAIN. Ridiculous. I've already missed 3 days of work in the last week bringing her in.......and she gets so stressed. She is much worse since the last unnecessary visit....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave007 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Anyone here have any experience with Aspergillosis fungal infections, by the way? If so, do Betsy's symptoms sound like they could be caused by a fungal infection? Our vet says it cannot be reliably tested for, but I'm starting to get concerned this is not just an allergy problem....... You really should take the time out to read the stickys here. http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?115338-ASPERGILLOSIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pi_1 Posted November 4, 2011 Author Share Posted November 4, 2011 You really should take the time out to read the stickys here. http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?115338-ASPERGILLOSIS I already went through it......I also have a 10 page printout on the subject. The sticky is just the basics, though......I was wondering what those of you that have dealt with this before thought. Our vet seems to think it cannot be a fungus since the steroids help.......while I disagree. I'm not sure is it IS this fungus, but our vet will not test for it. She says all tests other than endoscopy and biopsy are unreliable - and that she is not equipped to do those tests. She also says Betsy would need to be put under anesthesia and that she wouldn't advise this as most birds in poor health die when anesthetized. Also, a lot of the info I read on the subject is quite different and contradictory. Some say nebulization is a good idea (Betsy didn't respond well to it at ALL) and humidity is required, while others say it will contribute to the growth of fungus. Some say blood tests are reliable, while others say they are copmpletely unreliable and shouldn't be bothered with. The info on the sticky says that pellets should be the main diet for a healthy Grey, yet when I asked about it here recently (Betsy hates pellets and won't eat them), I was told her diet without pellets was fine and not to worry. Anyhow, I always read up on a subject before asking a question, but there is just so much conflicting information that I wanted to ask the opinions of those here that may heave dealt with it and have personal experience. As far as the checklist of causes the fungus can take hold, the only one that applies to Betsy is stress from that initial vet visit. Other than that she eats well and has a perfect and clean environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pi_1 Posted November 4, 2011 Author Share Posted November 4, 2011 (edited) In the first post you said you eliminated all food but pellets and sunflower seeds but in your last post you say she hates pellets and won't eat them. So is she basically only eating sunflower seeds or have you added back other foods at this point? She eats a few pellets here and there but I wouldn't consider them a "staple" of her diet - she hates them and will often just throw most of them out of the dish. When we stopped feeding her other foods, she ate a few more pellets, but mostly sunflower seeds. We continued like that for about a week and when we saw no improvement whatsoever, we added back her other favorites. We then stopped feeding her only the sunflower seeds for a week, again with no effect. So yes, don't worry, she is eating fine now. I wouldn't starve her, LoL. I wouldn't have taken away her favorite foods at all had it not been urgent we find out if she had a food allergy......didn't see another choice - especially since a huge part of her diet is nuts. Edited November 4, 2011 by Pi_1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pi_1 Posted November 4, 2011 Author Share Posted November 4, 2011 At this point I'm just glad Betsy is still eating and drinking well......but I fear one of these days she is going to stop if we don't identify and treat the problem soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcusCAG Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I'm sorry I don't have anything helpful to add but I just wanted to say that I'm sorry you and Betsy are going through this turmoil right now. She sounds like a fighter, though, and I sincerely hope you find the answers that you need soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malikah Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Anyone here have any experience with Aspergillosis fungal infections, by the way? If so, do Betsy's symptoms sound like they could be caused by a fungal infection? Our vet says it cannot be reliably tested for, but I'm starting to get concerned this is not just an allergy problem....... Yes, my Kito had Aspergillosis. She did not have any noticable pulmonary symptoms. She started losing weight and feather chewing so I took her to the vet and she was first diagnosed with a gram negative bacterial crop infection. It came back after medication was stopped so we sent blood for liver enzymes and swabs for bacterial and the fungal. It took a long time (about 2 weeks) for the fungal test results to come back, but it did show up. I'm not sure which lab they use, you could call and ask Dr. Jen at Animal Medical Center in Appleton, WI. We were lucky it resolved with the first round of treatment, sometimes it takes 2 or 3. I think that getting the full dose into Kito without causing her any stress was important to our success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pi_1 Posted November 5, 2011 Author Share Posted November 5, 2011 Can anyone advise me on what would be the least immunosuppressive steroid for use on African Greys with respiratory distress? Or point me to an avian study on the subject? There are a lot of options but I'm looking for something that can be given orally or IM that will be least suppressive to her immune system. I've come to the conclusion my vet has no idea what she is doing after talking to a specialist in avian respiratory disorders and am researching medications with which to treat Betsy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pi_1 Posted November 5, 2011 Author Share Posted November 5, 2011 By the way, the specialist said that even in absence of a reliable diagnosis (which is apparently nearly impossible with Aspergillosis), we should have been treating her for it weeks ago. He said playing this waiting game is decreasing her chances and that the vet basically has no idea what she is doing.......and that the info I've been given to this point is suspect...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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