respond to punishment

[lino]

i am just wondering, not that i am going to phisically punish my birds or injure them. just purely wondering

 

it is always said that bird do not understand any kind of punishment.

from what i see, punishment is something like telling the bird that if he do something, he will get something bad happen to them. but why wont they understand ? in the wild, they learn from bad thing too

 

like for example, if they go too near the ground, they will get caught easiy, thus they learnt to stay higher up on the tree. or they learn that if they go to climb too high, they will get biten by the flock leader who is trying to maintain the leadership

 

from the wild behaviour, they understand "cause and effect " concept. but why it doesnt apply at our house?

 

again, i am just thinking and trying to link up.

just watch the documntary on wild parrot. their life is actually quiet tough and face alot of negative stuff(punishment) from their wrong doing

 

be it from the flock member or from predator. but they learnt really fast through that.

[judygram]

You have asked an interesting question that I have no answer for but maybe one of our members will be able to answer it for you, I just know that you cannot use physical punishment on our greys and it is best to use positive reinforcement.

[Zoom]

Excellent question. Maybe it's not that punishment doesn't work, but that it does more harm than good. It may stop the unwanted behaviour, but damage the essential bond of trust between the Grey and his person.

 

I'm just guessing, though.

[Greywings]

Beginning with Greys do often feed at ground level, they just have to be alert and often they take turns as a look out or sentential for the flock perching up high and watching for predators. Not the flock leader but the safety bird is the highest up. Punishment will destroy the trust you want to develop between you and the Grey causing more problems due to distrust. Distraction, ignoring the "bad" behavior, reinforcing the "good" behavior will bring you better results. Like a small child keeping an eye on what they are doing and removing your approval can often accomplish more than yelling or physical correction. Some behaviors can result in immediate cage time for just a short time out if needed. These birds are very smart, very sensitive and are interested in all things around them you can use that inquisitive but cautious nature to help guide them. They also have rather long memories when they have been frightened or harmed.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Greywings
additional line

[Shelly Yokum]

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I punish my Macs, and they know it. No I do not spank them or yell at them. If they are out of the cage, and chew on something I tell them no, and give them something that is ok to chew. If they go back to what they are not suppose to have then they go to the cage for a time out.

[lino]

i do agree that when we punish the bird or hurt them, they will remember. but i think they will remember that if he do certain thing, they will get punish and they will not repeat it.

the furthust punishment i ever tried was to do the earth quake and evil eyes when they bite me. it work well to certain extend

 

but there is a trainer friend who punish the bird when they make noise. he would put the bird in a small dark box when ever the bird scream.

after a few time the bird really know that he should not screech.

 

i ve come across to the hybrid training method. its the combination of punishment(-ve) reinforcement and reward(+ve) reinforcement.

like for example:

 

the bird bite, then we shake the bird off. when the bird stop, reward the bird.

so the shake is the punishment.

 

then like when the bird screech, put the bird in the box, once the bird quiet, take him out and reward.

i am not too sure weather it will work but some of my friend have some success with it. the bird still bond very well to the owner and the bird is really decipline.

 

their concept is, bird learn well from negative thing that happen to them. they will learn what cause them pain and avoid doing it.

they also do learn what get them reward.

but to remove bad behaviour, they use punishment to get the bird stop doing it and reward once the bird stop the behaviour.

 

they do not believe in the concept

ignoring the bird and only reward the good behaviour...

 

actually there is alot of type of training method and type of trianer. a little confusing of which one to follow too

[lino]

i think the only concern about punishment is when it is done to extreme or wrongly it will spoil the relationship between the bird and the owner.

 

i remember another trainer told me, he punish the bird for all the bad behaviour they do. the bond really affected. the bird will hate him. but he will hand feed the bird(feed the bird from his hand). the bird will hate him but aware that he is dependent on him for food.

 

so after a short time of constant punishment, the bird will almost fully understand some that undesirable and will not do it.

then he will start to do the training. like talking and some simple trick. at this trianing, alot lot lot of treat and prises will be given and the new bond will rebuilt.

 

acording to him, this is his method and it always work. he is on of the most popular trainer too and he always see result very very quickly.

but he does warn that if this method is done wrongly, it can be disastrous. it can turn a tame bird to a frantically wild bird.

Edited March 29, 2011 by lino

[Dave007]

**like for example, if they go too near the ground, they will get caught easiy, thus they learnt to stay higher up on the tree. or they learn that if they go to climb too high, they will get biten by the flock leader who is trying to maintain the leadership**

 

Who told you such a thing or where did you see it?

 

I know of no parrot that gets a particular bird upset by going too high. The higher up they, the safer they are. When a higher place is located, that particular bird who is referred to as a flock leader will be up there just as high. Parrots who go up are doing a natural thing. There's no controling height. As far as the status of so called flock leaders, the rest of the flock will be just as happy when any of the other birds spots any intruder that's coming nearby. It's not any particular bird that gives off warnings because prey animals don't have flock leaders. It's survival of the fittest that determines whether they live or die.

All parrots can be easily distracted from a particular thing they're idoing in a house and people think they're punishing a bird in a house. The only so called punishment simply has to do with distraction and that isn't punishment of any type. Putting a parrot back in it's cage isn't punishment. It's simply distraction.

In the wild they fly down to the ground for one simple reason--to eat whatever attracts them which is nothing that we feed them. The reason for doing this is because parrots are scavengers. As with loads of other animals in the wild, they always have one eye on possible dangers if they're prey animals. This includes wild 4 legged creatures too.

Parrots of all types are wild animals, including the one you have in the house. It will remain wild even though it was bred and had chicks by Joe who lives down the block. People who bring parrots into the house are the ones that are creating an different atmosphere and in many cases it hampers a bird from doing what comes naturally and that's when a person intervenes. Open a window and watch the bird take off. You think that bird will be grateful that it lives in a protected enviornment? It's gonna take off and most times, trying to get the bird back is next to impossible because that overwhelming desire to connect with nature kicks in. People apply human ideas for their parrots and when the parrot won't follow through people think the bird is being obstinate. Those human ideas don't apply to animals who live in the wild. In the wild, parrots and other animals survive because nature has created that atmosphere.

 

***again, i am just thinking and trying to link up.

just watch the documntary on wild parrot. their life is actually quiet tough and face alot of negative stuff(punishment) from their wrong doing**

 

That's in the eyes of the beholder. In the wild there is no wrong doing.

 

All wild animals go through rough stuff in the wild and only when danger is present do they react. Nature dictates that reaction. That also applies to predatory birds. Many people think that what they do is cruel but it's only nature that guides them concerning what they do. What goes on in a house between a person and their parrot is totally different then the outside.

Any pre owned bird that comes to a new house with a certain set of habits be they good or bad was developed by previous owners. They interfered with nature.

Any bird in the house who is maturing has a natural personality developing and that applies to all species and their particular personality. Examples--A person can't stop an older grey from being aloof and less cuddly and developing intense chewing habits as they get older. A person can't stop a growing cockatoo from being a cuddley bird. A person can't stop a conure from yelling.

Much has been said about certain species of parrots living a certain length of time--BUT, that length of time is created by people. In the wild, parrots and other animals live a shorter amount of time because they deal with nature and that includes greys.

 

It might be better a good idea to get a large book concerning the psychology and habits of wild animals and how nature works.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Dave007

[lino]

***In the wild there is no wrong doing***

what i mean wrong doing is something like

when human set a trap, when they do something that hurt them, like eating from a trap and got trapped-they will very very quicly learn that those object is trap. especially for the bird that got trapped and escape. they will learn not to go near trap anymore.

 

may be its not really about the leadership thing, may be the hight dominance? i am not too sure about this actually. but it said that some do thing that make them get confronted by other, in particular, in the show, it was fighting for a spot. a young bird that trying to get a spot to pearch and got bitten by older flock member and the your parrot was said to be learning that he cant do that.

 

i hope i am not offending anyone here, i am just bringing up the topic that i thought worth discussing. and the practice that is done by some people i know.

i know this metter is always sensitive...

[Ray P]

To start with phisical punishment WILL NOT HELP TO BUILD A RELATIONSHIP in your home or in the wild.

Phisical punishment or pain in the wild could make the bird think that death is near.

Phisical punishment or pain in your home could make the bird think that death is near.

A bird any bird needs to socialise with their flock and learn from them to survive or they die (that is a punishment)

A bird does not understand phisical punishment as a means of knowing right from wronge only death.

In your home you reward the good and eignor the bad to socialise your bird so it has acceptable behavior and make it a part of your family.

Phisical punishment will drive a wedge between you and what could be a sweet bird

[Jayd]

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I punish my Macs, and they know it. No I do not spank them or yell at them. If they are out of the cage, and chew on something I tell them no, and give them something that is ok to chew. If they go back to what they are not suppose to have then they go to the cage for a time out.

 

That's not punishment...

[lino]

To start with phisical punishment WILL NOT HELP TO BUILD A RELATIONSHIP in your home or in the wild.

Phisical punishment or pain in the wild could make the bird think that death is near.

Phisical punishment or pain in your home could make the bird think that death is near.

A bird any bird needs to socialise with their flock and learn from them to survive or they die (that is a punishment)

A bird does not understand phisical punishment as a means of knowing right from wronge only death.

In your home you reward the good and eignor the bad to socialise your bird so it has acceptable behavior and make it a part of your family.

Phisical punishment will drive a wedge between you and what could be a sweet bird

 

I'm not too sure why is it that pain = death is nearing

As far as i know, in the wild, birds are facing challenge all the time. Even when they injured, they will try to survive.

They are very hardy if compared to other bird like soft bill.

 

Eventhough I do not punish my bird, I think a negative (punishment) do make the bird remember that they should not do certain thing. And the punishment make them remember it hard.

However, I do believe that phisical punishment that cause injury should not b done.

From what i encounter, Phisical Punishment that is unpleasant but not hurting like squirting the bird with water work verywell .

A fren of mine has caique who love to shoot the poop out of the cage. So he squirt the bird whenever the bird about to poop out the cage.

Within a few time, the bird really learn well

[Jayd]

I'm not too sure why is it that pain = death is nearing

As far as i know, in the wild, birds are facing challenge all the time. Even when they injured, they will try to survive.

They are very hardy if compared to other bird like soft bill.

 

Eventhough I do not punish my bird, I think a negative (punishment) do make the bird remember that they should not do certain thing. And the punishment make them remember it hard.

However, I do believe that phisical punishment that cause injury should not b done.

From what i encounter, Phisical Punishment that is unpleasant but not hurting like squirting the bird with water work verywell .

A fren of mine has caique who love to shoot the poop out of the cage. So he squirt the bird whenever the bird about to poop out the cage.

Within a few time, the bird really learn well

 

What you suggest is not punishment, it is abuse. There are two types of abuse...intentional and unintentional. Unintentional is lack of knowing what is abuse or lack of proper treatment, usually from an owner not researching and taking advise from others who have not researched but do it because it sounds good. Example: laddering, having a bird step up from one hand to the next in succession a number of time, squirting with water or throwing bits of paper and comparing how a bird acts in the wild as opposed to captivity. Most of us should know what intentional abuse is. In the wild,there are bully birds, not so many in the grey flocks as in the Zons and the Macaw flocks. A Grey spends almost a year in his nest before leaving and then seeks out a mate from his flock. This is a learning time. They are not taught by intimidation. Our captive Greys being bred in captivity are not domesticated (like cats and dogs) nor will they for about another 200,000 years. This shows in their attitudes, actions, language and behavior. A Grey is capable of compound thoughts. Example: when you say "I don't like that" in a nice voice (when he bites you) and then immediately re-attempt him,they will learn in due time that biting is not a good behavior. If you squirt a bird for the same action, he will think that you like it and it is a game or he will draw fear and possible danger from you and retreat from you and the whole process of trust must be re-started. An example of the ways that a Grey and an Amazon think differently, an Amazon will make immediate actions without thought. If they fall, they think "Oh well" and pick themselves up, brush themselves off and go about their business. (Most birds are this way) A Grey, before he takes any action, stops and thinks about it, asking himself "could I fall?", "What happens if I fall?", and "Is it worth the chance?". Anyone who has raised (from hatched) more than one bird knows that positive reinforcement is far more rewarding than any type of negativity, punishment, abuse or otherwise. In dealing with Greys, remember, it is you that have to earn the trust of the Greys, not the other way around.

[lino]

Thanks Jay.

I am really not too sure about training. Not that I am suggesting, I just said there's a friend I know who do that.

For me, I am lucky enough to have my birds that is obedient enough by far and they are perfect.

 

I do agree. Grey is totally different from conure or other bird.

I have incident that make me feeling very very down recently. My grey walk to me and say "how are u" and for the 1st time climb to me and sit th my arm

 

Usually she will not come to mr and I have to come to her.

Since that day the relationship go to the higher level that she is looking forward to spen time with me.

Before that, it's like, "u play with me, I am ok, u don't, I am also happy" kind of relationship

Now, "I Wana out to play, please take me out"

 

 

What I am trying to say is, I agree with Jay that grey I very very sensitive and they think alot then dound action.

They look lazy, but their brain is running nonstop.

 

May b a little punishment is enough to destroy a grey's trust as they are significantly more sensitive then the most.

[Spinner]

Every behaviour we might find in the wild is found in our homes with our greys. The context might be different, but the results are mostly identical. I'm a bit concerned that the word punishment appears in the original post, because in the wild, punishment simply doesn't happen. Unfortunately, that's a human behaviour (I'm sooo proud that I'm part of a species that has that possibility of behavour).

 

The original post said

It is always said that bird do not understand any kind of punishment.

from what i see, punishment is something like telling the bird that if he do[es] something, he will get something bad happen to them.[/Quote]Don't confuse punishment to consequences of dangerous behaviour. My birds know that there are consequences to biting me, just as I know there are consequences for me to do something that might lead to a bite. No punishment is involved. For my poor choice of action, I may get admonished by my grey with a nice bite. When deserved, I might admonish my grey with a simple "no!" I'm pretty confident that both my grey and I understand the "consequences" of what we do.

 

From the wild behaviour, they understand "cause and effect " concept. but why it doesnt apply at our house?[/Quote]It does apply. Most certainly. If my grey happens to do something dangerous like chewing on a lamp cord it might get a nasty shock. If it survives, does that mean natural selection will yield "non-lamp cord eating" greys ? Not likely. It does mean my grey indeed understands cause and effect (or consequences) and will likely stay away from lamp cords. No one exerted punishment in this case. There is a clear understanding by my bird that chewing on lamp cords might lead to pain. They DO undertand.

 

Lino, thanks for asking your question.

[lino]

Yup, that's what I am trying to say. The punishment I mention is actually a negative outcome to the bird. Regrdless of involemevt of human and intensity. Something that the bird don't like to happen.

Like in your case get shock for chewing the wire.

 

Just thinking, can we create the nagtive outcome without being known by the bird.

Say like:

If bird scared of red colour shirt., then when the bird make noise, we make the red shirt appear without human being around.

May be hang it with a string and when the bird scream, drop the shirt without being present at the scene. So the bird will think screaming=scary red shirt.

 

Do u think it's acceptable or will it work?

Without human involvement.

[Jayd]

Please read from the start. Thank you. Jayd

 

http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?190309-A-note-on-Punishment-and-your-Parrot/page6

[Greywings]

A fren of mine has caique who love to shoot the poop out of the cage. So he squirt the bird whenever the bird about to poop out the cage.

This would be a normal sanitary behavior in the wild to keep the area free of droppings avoiding any fecal contamination for the bird.

[Spinner]

Lino, NO! Punishment and negative outcomes have NO place with our greys.

 

Repeat: We do NOT want to present punishment and negative experiences to our greys.

 

The whole premise of training and behaviour modification is on positive reinforcement alone. No more. To do otherwise is abusive.

[Luvparrots]

Since Ana Grey was little I have always told her "no" when she does something I don't like. "no bite", or if she does something wrong, say nips my blinds, I say "stop that",, or "that's not nice". She understands "stop that" or "no" because if I do something she doesn't like, like flick her off my shoulder if she nibbles on my ear, she says, "Stop that" right back at me to let me know I have done something unexceptable too. Ana Grey also understands tone of voice. When I want her to go to sleep I always say "nite, nite, in your cage" She of course doesn't want to go in her cage so she flies away. But when I change my tone of voice when I get frustrated from chasing her, she immediately steps up and let's me put her in her cage. Our fids are very intelligent and if you watch them and listen to them as they do to us and learn their gestures, tones and body language just like they do ours, the trust understanding will grow because our feathered friends so much want to be part of our flock; we just need to take the time to learn to read each other.

[lino]

Please read from the start. Thank you. Jayd

 

http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?190309-A-note-on-Punishment-and-your-Parrot/page6

i have not read it all finish. i will carry on. thanks. its a good article !

[lino]

okay, i will note it...so for training wise, just ignore the bad and encourage the good behavior...

 

recently my grey got spooked and jump off from her perch. after that i notice that she isnt standing in the usual posture. its like a little slouching forwards.

so i think it could be the fall. i wet the chest feather and find out that there is bruises on the chest.

 

i brought it to the vet and he suggested to pull out some of the cliped feather so the bird can regrow the feather asap.

i am still considering as it will badly traumatise the grey. but i cant afford another fall.

he is clipped to the extend that he will fall chest/head 1st.

i think this will give the bird very bad experienced and i dont want to risk the bond that have been developing quickly recently.

[lino]

okay, i will note it...so for training wise, just ignore the bad and encourage the good behavior...

 

recently my grey got spooked and jump off from her perch. after that i notice that she isnt standing in the usual posture. its like a little slouching forwards.

so i think it could be the fall. i wet the chest feather and find out that there is bruises on the chest.

 

i brought it to the vet and he suggested to pull out some of the cliped feather so the bird can regrow the feather asap.

i am still considering as it will badly traumatise the grey. but i cant afford another fall.

he is clipped to the extend that he will fall chest/head 1st.

i think this will give the bird very bad experienced and i dont want to risk the bond that have been developing quickly recently.

 

i think i would just let him regrow his feather.

i will try to bath him more often and encourage him to eat more vegie and fruits,maybe it help in the speed and the quality of the feather.

 

i will try to get him to eat herrison pellet as i heard it is very good and fully organic.

 

i am afraid that pulling out the feather will stressed him too much and i will have to restart the bonding again and i think it will be worse then before as the grey will now think that i am a bad guy who is going to pull her feather.