Axel is biting me :(

[Kim65]

As I was warned , Axel is now beginning to display his true self. I've had him since the day after Christmas, and he is about sixteen years old. His cage is in the living area with me, and when I am home, he is always with me. He sits on the open door of his cage and now that there are some interesting toys in the upper play area, he perches up there too. He will turn inside out for any kind of bell. His favorite toy cost 1.99 and is a simple metal bell, which he takes in his beak and rings. All the more expensive toys, foraging toys, foot play toys . . . ha.

 

Anyway, from the moment I first picked him up, he stuck his beak in my mouth and nose and was very gentle. I was mildly apprehensive but got over that quickly. Then one day he bit down hard enough on my lip to create a sore spot and growled a little. He was pretty stimulated, I think, having his head scratched and sitting with me on the couch, he's not in his most comfy zone (prefers the open door of his cage).

 

After that, I was quite apprehensive about him sticking his beak near my face. Then, he bit my finger pretty hard and barely broke the skin when I put him back in his cage. He was riding my finger and bit me.

 

Last night, as I walked past him (up on his cage door) I leaned toward him and he bit my nose SO HARD it bled. I have a red nostril and it feels bruised (looks bruised too). I did not yell or react much but stood there trying not to howl and said "I'm gonna pretend that didn't happen."

 

This morning, he'd gotten his favorite bell wrapped around the bars and I was unwrapping it for him. I'd read about parrot biting and from what I read, I perceived he was picking up on my apprehension perhaps, so when he bit me REAL HARD, breaking the skin and leaving a beak shaped indentation in the web of my thumb, I stuck my finger under him and said UP!! and made him do UP!! over and over again like a ladder until he just obeyed and stopped trying to bite. This was a technique I read about on line this morning.

 

Axel is healthy, he does not pluck his feathers, he eats well, his poop looks normal. I am pretty inexperienced here and can only figure he is reacting to my anxiety. I have had him bite me good and jerked my hand away and shouted OW!! Which I understand a parrot LOVES, now. It is SO HARD to not pull my hand away from that beak, let me tell you.

 

So I'm guessing he's biting due to domination type things?

 

His previous owner had him for about a month, and said he was rehoming him because Axel "nipped" his ear and then seemed afraid of him afterward. He felt bad, and thought Axel didn't like him and wanted Axel to be "happy" with someone he did like. I have a funny feeling that Axel CHOMPED this guys ear and he did a little more than put Axel back in his cage gently.

 

So like you all said, his true colors are coming out and I have a bitey Grey.

 

I've done quite a bit of reading, and don't really know yet what kind of questions about his environment that could contribute to this I should be asking. I hope that makes sense. I thought the experienced folks here could ask the right questions and perhaps help me come up with a better picture and some more ideas on how to work with him.

[danmcq]

At his age, he knows what he wants and what he will allow. One thing about the cage and cleaning or moving toys around while they are in them. They will many times bite and puff up because you are invading their home and messing up their toys. My wife can do many things to our greys cage with him in it, I cannot without watching where he is and ensuring no finger, face or body part is close enough for him to deliver a bite to.

 

In regards the face, nose lips ect'. Do not get them near your grey. They are very soft and can be pierced by what they grey considers a very soft warning or exploratory nibble.

[Kim65]

Yes, thank you very much. He was so gentle for a while, but he was just being polite as he got to know me. He seems very independent. He does not demand attention from me at all, but when I leave and come back, he dances and lifts his wings and whistles in greeting. Well, he does ask to "share" food I am eating, and if it is appropriate I will share it with him. He makes a microwave sound *DINK!!* that tells me he's ready for the next bite .

 

I am a complete newbie with parrots and just love him and want him to be happy as he is. I'll respect his well entrenched personality And keep my facial structures away from that beak, arg

[judygram]

I am a complete newbie with parrots and just love him and want him to be happy as he is. I'll respect his well entrenched personality And keep my facial structures away from that beak, arg

 

That sounds wise and he is set in his ways at his age but like you have discovered the honeymoon phase is over and his true personality is becoming apparent but not to worry, if you respect his wishes and do not overstep his boundaries then you two should do fine, take it one step at a time and don't rush him for more than he is willing to give. He is doing just fine in my opinion so keep up the good work.

[Kim65]

Thank you Judy I was trying to pay a lot of attention to him (as I believed he would want, being a grey and all). I don't think he wants it. Now that I'm stepping back and analyzing, he seems independent. He acknowledges me, we "converse", but I think he wants me to leave him alone LOL. That's fine with me, he's right here in the living area (I have a very large studio) and his cage is near the day bed where I relax or sleep.

 

Both times he bit me I was standing near his cage and was higher up than him. He didn't fluff his feathers but put his head down and looked at me intensely. It seemed like he was saying BACK OFF.

 

Today he crawled down the cage and walked along the furniture until he was on the couch with me. So he can approach me if he wants to

 

One thing I seriously doubt is coincidence . . . when I am undressed, he wolf whistles. No other time does he do that. It's doing WONDERS for my self esteem

[Morana]

 

One thing I seriously doubt is coincidence . . . when I am undressed, he wolf whistles. No other time does he do that. It's doing WONDERS for my self esteem

 

Loool!

Mine did that too when I was undressed just before going to shower. However, he doesn't do that any more.. Guess I need to start working out again!Lol ;-)

[chezron]

It might help you to read the post on African Grey Body Language.

 

After awhile you will learn the subtleties of grey communication. It just takes some time and patience.

 

I also "ask" before I do anything near my grey. Just like a person. If I would like to give him a kiss, I say, "You want a kiss?', and he usually extends his head to let me know it is okay. If he doesn't I don't press the issue. One thing I have learned is the answer they give is the one they mean; they are never confused or "on the fence."

[danmcq]

I also "ask" before I do anything near my grey. Just like a person. If I would like to give him a kiss, I say, "You want a kiss?', and he usually extends his head to let me know it is okay. If he doesn't I don't press the issue. One thing I have learned is the answer they give is the one they mean; they are never confused or "on the fence."

 

Boy is that right! They are NEVER fickle. It's either yes or no.

[bran]

Hi Kim... Welcome to the Forum. I am new here too, and I can tell you that the people are extremely kind, and non-judgemental about questions, nor opinions!! So please feel free to be comfortable discussing anything, and asking all the questions that you want. The best way to learn is to ask. I got Dexter last may and he was 12... I was not new to parrots, but NEW to Grey's. Even though I have done research on Grey's for the past twenty years. Anywho... I found this website http://www.itsagreysworld.com/fun/bodylang.htm , I actually printed it out, laminated it, and kept it on my coffee table. You know, one does want "quick reference" lol, for those moments when you just have no idea what the hell you have gotten yourself into. (haha)

 

As for the previous owner, I can understand the fear of getting hurt... but Greys arent good being around ears... trust me, Dexter can pop out an earing quicker than anything i have ever seen. Also Grey's tend to have a dominance issue with riding around on owners shoulders too often (this could lead to agression)

Dexters favorite toy is a rope bell thing I got at a local grocery store for $2.99 so I bought them out, so he has one in every cage, and I have backups. I have learned that alternating toys and rearranging perches keeps my little man on his toes. Trust me nothing is worse than an unhappy bored Grey.

 

http://www.goodbirdinc.com/help-success.html is another website I found incredibly helpful!

 

also... I will throw this in, Patricia Sund that writes http://www.parrotnation.com is extremely knowledgable and has become somewhat of a personal idol for me, and she might have some things in her blog that might help you out too!!

 

Good Luck!! Remember, parrots are amazing, and it takes amazing people to help them stay that way!

Edited January 20, 2011 by bran

[Kim65]

Bran, that second website is fantastic!

 

I have gone over and over the parrot body language lists, and can see that Axel was telling me to back off, I was invading his space.

 

That he ALSO steps up and responds positively to me tells me he's not got terrible behavioral issues. It's more that I have them , by not reading him correctly.

[wbaradio]

Hello Kim, I have a similar story, but a little different ending... and I think I know why. I adopted Sam when he was 17 years old. His previous owner had a couple of birds and several cats ( by the way, so do I). The owner had kept Sam and the other Amazon parrot in the kitchen in separate cages. During the day while the owner was gone, she closed off the kitchen and opened the cages to let them roam the kitchen... which they did and chewed up all the woodwork. She asked me and the wife if we'd like to take Sam as she no longer had the time to devote to him. After some thought we decided to give it a try. We went over to get Sam and she used an oven mit to get him out of the cage and into a small carry cage. He was a biter...! I brought him home and placed him in the Sunroom with our other Cockatiels. I didn't try to get him out of his cage for awhile, BUT I also didn't let him out of his cage to wonder around. I would sit in the Sunroom on my laptop computer with one or two Cockatiels on my shoulder and Sam would sit and watch me. After a couple of weeks, I tried getting him out with the oven mit and he bit down pretty hard. So, I was the one who fed and watered him and gave him treats, but I never let him out of the cage, until he would come to the cage door perch and put his foot up 'asking' me to take him out. This was the start of the mutual relationship, where I was the one who was in charge of "when" he could get out of the cage! He is now bonded to me, so that when I come into the room, he goes to the perch and puts his foot up to get out or get a treat. He also, now sits low on my hand and re-gurgitates food to me after I stroke his beak... True Parrot Love. Only problem, my wife and daughters are still scared of him...! So, my advice is to keep him in his cage until he asks you to get him out. Then if you get him out and he bites you, look at him sternly, and put him immediately back in the cage. Trust me, he'll get the message!

[Morana]

Please don't reach inside of the cage with anything, and most certainly not with an oven mit !! Of course he is a biter!! I would be too if someone would force me out of my bed, or shower,safe place or whatever!!! And some birds won't ever ask to go out because they are too scared, or they don't know how, or they wouldn't think of that kind of signal. It is ok to let the bird observe for a while but then, open it's cage and he/she will decide on her/his own when or whether he/she wanna come out. It is great, afterward to teach them to first take the treat before stepping out because you''ll need that for other types of training. When Zak bites I firmly say NO and wait for him to "fluff down" and then pet him on his beak, "say softly that that is no way to behave" for him to see that he won't get rid of me that easily. I won't do what he wants me to do under his conditions. When I pet him I will leave (and that is when he gets what he wants) but I'm teaching him that there are some rules and principles and he can't do whatever and whenever he wants.. He often relaxes after that. When he has his D days and he does something really nasty (it is very rare), for example, if he bites really hard, he'll get time out in the cage but I won't yell or do anything else , and trust me, he doesn't object going to the cage then. He knows he deserved it. After 10/15 minutes I let him out again and everything is back as it was. I will never reach for him to put him or take him out!

[BenzMama]

Poor baby! Sam had been 'conditioned' to know that an oven mitt meant something unpleasant was coming, so he responded in the only way he could ~ a bite! Unless Sam sees you wearing a mitt ALL the time, he will still make that association: mitt = unpleasant. Time & patience but without a mitt is the only thing that will recondition that behavior ... but it CAN be done.

[Luvparrots]

Kim, try a tight fist so that Axel has nothing to latch/bite onto. Perhaps that will much easier on both of you. Soothing voice tones, gentle touch.

[Morana]

Kim, try a tight fist so that Axel has nothing to latch/bite onto. Perhaps that will much easier on both of you. Soothing voice tones, gentle touch.

 

But why would anyone go in the cage and reach for the bird to take it out!? Poor bird!

[Luvparrots]

I go in my birds' cages all the time. I want them to be use to me in their cages just in case an emergency comes up and I need to get in that cage. I have cages with where the whole front opens so I have total access all the time. We are a family and they are in my space all the time, so quid pro quo so to speak. I also don't believe in supporting the dominance theory, but that's just my opinion.

[wbaradio]

When I clean out Sam's cage, I stick my head all the way into the door and into the cage to wipe down the bottom areas where the paper pan slides in. Sam will come down from his perch to play or bite the sponge or sit on my shoulder. He's not that territorial about his cage, but I don't take him out unless he comes to his door perch and puts his foot up.

[Kim65]

I leave Axel's cage open 24/7. It has a play top and is festooned with toys inside and out (including hanging from the ceiling).

 

Originally he was the gentleman, NEVER bit me, he was gentle and trustworthy around my face and lips. Always raised his foot to step up.

 

Then one day about two weeks in, he bit my lip a little bit hard. Then I leaned toward him on his perch (his open cage door is his favorite perch) and he bit my nose so hard it bled. I started reading immediately about biting parrots (while feeling SO disappointed, I was sure I didn't have a biter) and used a technique where I had him step up, "take the bite" (thus my second injury ) and then do a dominance thing with him where he had to step up over and over until he stopped biting.

 

In this bit of advice I read, I also learned that parrots are sensitive to facial expressions and to give him a very dirty look when he bites.

 

I have been VERY reluctant to handle him since. I force myself to. But I also respect that he seems quite happy to come to me when he wishes and interacts with me just fine otherwise.

[danmcq]

But why would anyone go in the cage and reach for the bird to take it out!? Poor bird!

 

Many people have their birds step up to move them from their cage to either go somewhere else or simply to place them on their shoulder where they like to reside.

 

The only time you do not reach inside a birds cage, is if you know they are cage aggressive or cage bound.....

 

Most birds have been trained to know step-up and will lift their talon when they want out or up. They are very intelligent, even if they cannot speak like an african grey and will understand what you are asking and either lift their talon or leave it down meaning they do not want to come out. Both my parrots can not wait to get out of their cages. Dayo will ask for us to open the door and tell us he wants out. Jake the Conure will lift his talon and if ignored will go into a screaming mode, hang on the side of his cage and flap his wings furiously on and off every 10 seconds.

 

All parrots have been trained, some intentionally and some by owners that never bothered, yet believe it or not the parrots were trained by the actions the owner performed. It was either a pleasent thing they looked forward to or a negative thing they came to hate and thus became cage bound and or cage aggressive.

 

The good news is, with a ton of patience and love, it can all be overcome.

Edited January 23, 2011 by danmcq

[Morana]

Tnx danmcq:-)

With that sentence that you quoted I actually meant: who would grab their bird in the cage and pull it out? I should have said it that way so there would be no mistake.

So it may be that i misread some other things too.. :-S Sorry people if I did.

And what you said in your post-I agree with all, I agree with your reason why would you reach in side, but not with garbing your parrot with or without oven mits!

[wbaradio]

Kim, per my earlier posts.... try keeping Axel in his cage and only let him out when you come to the door. You might want to put a small cement perch on the inside of the door so that when Axel want to come out he goes to that perch and puts his foot (talon) up for you to open the door and put your hand hand out. When you do, don't just let him climb all over the cage. Take him and try to let him sit with you at a table where you can scratch his head or beak. I think he'll soon learn that seeing you means an opportunity to get out of the cage.

[Greymatter]

I can go into Merlin's cage to take him out, but he gets rather offended when I rotate his toys or clean the cage, so generally Husband takes him to the Man Room when the cage cleaning is going on - otherwise I can't do a great job.

 

We also have to move our Caique to their playstand while his cage is being cleaned - he just would rather be dirty and tries to take the sponge away angrily otherwise!

 

I've been lucky in that he has only bitten hard enough to draw blood twice - in almost 12 years - but I also took him home at 6 weeks of age, and know his body & eye language.

 

I taught him from the get go that he was never allowed on my shoulder - Husband will attempt to put him there sometimes (as he lets Merlin on his), but Merlin just WON'T as he's been conditioned it's not okay to be there. I like my eyes/ears/lips/cheeks...you know, facial features.

 

One of my friends has a Grey who won't let anyone else but family pick him up - I'm the only non-family member who has had the patience and understanding to take the time to get to know Dakota from afar in order to pick up his queues - and can hold him & spend quality time with him. Even though I don't see my friend & Dakota often (we live 600km apart now), he does remember me when I visit.

 

Over time, you'll learn how to read each other, and come to a more natural understanding and appreciation for each other It just takes time, and a lot of observing.