How much should a CAG weigh? sm/md/lg body types...

[Rrrma]

I can never seem to find very good info on grey weights. It's like anywhere from 250-600 grams... well that is a HUGE scale! lol! Of course the lower end is TAGs and not CAGs, but how do you really know which yours should be? Their body sizes range so much.

 

I would classify my Norma as underweight by her current feather condition and her painfully obvious keel. The vet agreed she is underweight, but not in a worrisome way. We are working to gain back the weight she lost when switching from a breeder/seed diet to a pellet/fresh diet. She has a rather big body. I've seen a handful of CAGs in my life and she is definitely at the top of the list for 'height'. She weighed 470 this morning and I think 500 is probably the minimum she should be. But how do you really know when they are good, or slightly under, or slightly over, or really over? It seems like it would all depend on feeling the keel... but that seems like it leaves a lot of room for error for owners not experience in feeling the keel.

 

So, what is your input on this?

[animalINSPIRED]

I also worry about Averi's weight. She's so active, and even though she eats well I still tend to worry. She weighs in between 375-390 as her norm weight. The vet said between 385-400 is her healthy weight for her height and size. Though, she also said not to worry if she falls slightly below that, since she's flighted and gets lots of exercise. I think feeling the keel is great for people with experience, but knowing their ideal weight is beneficial too.

[Dave007]

Congo

approx 385 to 415-----------small boned

approx 420 to 485-----------medium/slightly large boned

approx 520 to 605-----------large / very large boned

 

Tag

approx 240 to to 280------small/ slightly medium boned

approx-285 to 310--------medium/ slightly large boned

approx 315 to 325---------large/ very large boned

 

All greys, TAGs and CAGs are different weights because of the size the parents are.

Weights above can vary a bit

Edited September 9, 2010 by Dave007

[Rrrma]

So how do you decide if they are large/very large? I'd say she is large, but not very large, though I haven't seen any larger than her in person.

 

I'd say from my own math and guessing she should weight 520 to be perfect. Our goal right now is 500 and we are slowly creeping up there. We were down to 450 and are up to 470 now.

[Dave007]

You can't make a grey gain weight. The bird is what it is. Weight gain has to do with chicks and their weight as they grow. You would need a gram scale to weigh your bird. The scale above should tell you what you wanna know. The only thing you have to worry about is extreme weight loss due to serious illnesses. There are no exact weights. As of today you have a medium sized bird and I doubt that your bird will get into the large sized variety.

It's bone structure and the parent's size.

[Rrrma]

I'd have to disagree. Firstly she is 14 years old and I only acquired her 2 months ago from a not so perfect situation.

 

She lost a large amount of weight and we are working on gaining it back. She was of her healthy weight when I got her and then lost a significant amount during the stress of being rehomed and changing her diet from a 14/16% breeder diet to a low fat(was too low) fresh food and pellet diet. Sadly I didn't get to weigh her before she lost the weight, so I have no way of knowing what her normal weight is. Although I can't measure her exactly yet(too scared of everything that is new) I got roughly 14" when she was calm enough for me to try.

 

The vet gave me some things to add to her diet like yogurt, cheese, bone, and egg and the people on the forums have helped me figure out her diet wasn't quite right for a grey(I'm used to feeding my eclectus). So she isn't at her normal weight and it definitely isn't a good weight, her plasma proteins were down and the vet said that was from a lack of protein and good fats in her diet.

 

She isn't going to grow, I know that, but she is anorexic looking at 470 grams and wasn't so when I first met her. It was my lack of proper knowledge that caused her weightloss and I am trying to fix that and figure out what her appropriate weight is supposed to be.

[Dave007]

Ok, you asked and I told you.

[Rrrma]

Thank you for the chart.

[Jayd]

Dave's response is more then correct, and being in experance as you say are with Grey's, he is probability the most experienced person with Grey's on the forum. Judging a Grey' ideal weight by "keel feel" is a myth. A keel can protrude for many reason's, including lack of exercise... Length of a Grey has nothing to do with weight, as Dave said, bone structure is the guide . Remember, "Trim is In".....470 gram's is really a nice weight for a bird of your description. I'd be more concerned with consistent daily amount of food eaten......Thanks Jayd

[Rrrma]

But she did lose weight, that is the thing, and she lost it suddenly(well, within the first month I had her). The vet agreed it was lack of protein/fat in her diet(and the added exercise) and that she was underweight. If the vet(who is an experience avian vet) says she needs to gain weight... doesn't she?

 

I'm not fixated on the number, I try to offer her everything I can.

Pellets, flax, fruits, veggies, grains, sprouts, yogurt/cheese/bone/egg, seeds and nuts. I posted a thread about her diet when I first joined She eats good, she is a very hungry girl(though only slightly hungrier than my amazon who is only slightly hungrier than my eclectus), but she finally has feces in all her droppings(she had lost them and this required an emergency vet visit and a full bloodtest etc, which is when I found out she wasn't getting enough fat/protein).

 

I just want to make sure she is healthy and I didn't hurt her because I didn't know they needed so much more fat/protein than my eclectus.

[Jayd]

I'd keep doing what your doing and just enjoy. It's not a matter of her needing to gain weight, it's a matter of how much and how fast. Give her 1/2 extra hard-boiled egg only twice a week, stop the bone[?] cut the fruit to 1 small piece a day, hard cheese small amount 2 times a week, give cooked white meat chicken/turkey 2 or 3 times a week, a little Albacore tuna daily [this is all protein].Boil or bake a sweet potato and mix in some Skippy's natural peanut butter and give her twice a day warm, [under 108 degrees]...And all the fresh veggies she'll eat... Jayd

[Dave007]

More than likely, if the vet said she was underweight, then she's underweight. I'm just telling you that a bird who is that age isn't gonna have a huge weight difference as far as gaining no matter what he/she eats. Maybe 10/15 grams. You've only had her 2 months and any differences will take quite a while so judgements can't be made right now. Another thing is the fact that your bird is different than the next bird who's different than the next bird so forth and so on. The vet is correct about possible weight loss from lots of present excerize. but that's not unusual for a grey or many other species of parrots. Some species are know for weight gain; some for weight loss. Greys come into the latter catagory.

Her diet that you give right now is making her a healthier bird which is great since she eats everything----

"""""The vet gave me some things to add to her diet like yogurt, cheese, bone, and egg"""""

Well, yogurt can't put any weight on a bird. It's supplies good bacteria. Cheese can't put any weight on a bird because very little can be eaten or internal problems can occur. Greys can't handle most dairy products. If given too much dairy, diareaha can occur. Eggs can only be given once in a while because that too can cause diahrea. It's also a dairy product. By the way, concerning cheese--only a certain type can be fed. White cheese will cause illness. Hard yellow cheddar in small amounts once in a while is fine.

""""We are working to gain back the weight she lost when switching from a breeder/seed diet to a pellet/fresh diet."""""

Well, anyone who knows about a grey's diet can definitely say that a seed diet is fattening no matter what species it's given too. So, you're trying to get your bird back to a weight that was caused by a weight gaining type of food by using food that's not meant to put on weight but is meant to keep a bird healthy????? Does that make sense?

Whatever weight gain that'll happen will happen naturally and comparing a weight that was achieved by a bad diet to a present weight that was achieved by a healthy diet plus excersize doesn't jive here.

Wanna hear the other side of the situation concerning a species. Ask Jay. He deals with amazons that can have a weight gain problem simply by being inactive. Amazons, greys, ekkies---3 species all completely different.

I truly believe your vet gave you those food suggestions so that the bird will get healthier while nature takes it's course and brings the bird back to a weight size that's healthy for him. It may not coincide with a special chart but the bird will be fine. As jay said, seeing the keel bone isn't a definite sign of weight loss. I have a grey was totally bald when I got him. He was also an adult.Not only could I see his keel bone but also every other bone on his body. He was 405 grams and now he's 420 grams but that took 3 years to achieve and as of now, the only reason I can't see his keel bone is because he has a thick set of breast feathers covering it.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Dave007

[Rrrma]

Thanks and sorry if I seemed defensive. I'm so worried about all 3 of them because I got all of them way into adulthood after years of neglect and improper diet. I want to make sure they are as healthy as possible, but realized after the fact how completely different all 3 of their diets are and have had to do a crash course of their dietary needs. Im still learning.

 

I offer her everything but the fish(just haven't been to a store where I can get uncanned fish since it was suggested to me), she gets a finger of wheat toast with a thick coat of peanut butter on it a day. She only gets a small piece of fruit a day(one normal grape or one grape sized piece of apple or one grape sized piece of some other fruit) and sometimes she doesn't bother eating it.

I rotate out the yogurt, cheese, egg, and bone. The cheese is usually cottage cheese, is that not ok? The egg is a whole egg that I blend in a blender and then cook scrambled style(but without any kind of oil or milk, just heat and stir). The "bone" is actually broiled chicken wings I give her 1-2 a week, just a whole wing and she tears it apart.

 

She has dry food available to her all day, though she isn't as fond of it as she is the wet. I put harrison's, nutriberries, flax flakes, an almond or two, and a tablespoon of seedmix in that. She tends to only eat it when she has run out of wet food or doesn't like what is being served and she always goes for the pellets first and often times doesn't touch the other things.

[Dave007]

Just ease up on the eggs a bit. Once or at the most 2x a week won't cause problems.

Cottage cheese is a no no. It's white cheese and a grey doesn't metabilize white dairy products.

Chicken bones are totally fine. That provides marrow which is good for any parrot. If you're giving the wings, just make sure that you give the bones that have knuckles on 1 end or either end. Most parrots that like chicken bones will dig out the interior and then demolish the rest of it. you can give as many as he wants. Make sure all grease and gristle is taken off the bone. Fruits aren't really important in a grey's diet. They're acidic and really don't supply the body with great things. Fruits here and there are fine.

[Rrrma]

Ok I'll stop the cheese. There is so much conflicting info on the net, you say no white cheese and yes to yellow/orange cheese and others say no yellow/orange cheese and yes to white cheese. I'd rather avoid milk products altogether if possible, so is that ok?

What is the point of the milk products anyway? just the calcium? Wouldn't the fact she eats her leafy greens every day and also bone be enough calcium to cut out the cheese/yogurt?

 

The egg probably is given 2-3 times a week, since I rotate it out with everything. I give 1/3 a teaspoon at a serving. Is that ok to continue? Can I do just the bone and the egg? I give her a whole wing, the part with the () shape and the little ^ end. Is that ok?

[Dave007]

I never said to stop the yogurt. Yogurt provides good bacteria for the body. That's why people eat it. It should be given no more than 1x a week to 10 days. I know there's conflicting info on the net and you don't have to believe these things that are said but right now, you're asking about the diet of an african grey. Greys, whether they be CAGs or TAGs can't metabolise white dairy products. Greys are known as *lactose intolerent*. That's a common fact. Greys get the most calcium from dark green veggies. The marrow from bones also supplies calcium. Hard yellow cheese provides some vitamins but that cheese shouldn't be given on a daily basis.

""""others say no yellow/orange cheese and yes to white cheese."""

Honestly, if it were me, I wouldn't bother being a member of any grey board that says that. Neither would many other people. I moderate the health room here and if I gave out that kind of info, I guarantee that I wouldn't be able to stay as a moderator.

"""" 1/3 a teaspoon at a serving""""

Even 1/2 teaspoon is fine as long as moderation is used

[Jayd]

Thanks Dave, the forum and it's members can always count on you. Your on the right track Rrrma..I'm sorry, when you said "bone" I didn't relate it too chicken....You said,.I give 1/3 a teaspoon at a serving., Question? how is it cooked? I replied, "Give her 1/2 extra hard-boiled egg..[shell and all] just cut it in half and give it to her." Fish/Tuna, is caned, low-sodium in water. Again, Thanks Dave......

[Rrrma]

So yes to yogurt, is there anywhere else they can get those kinds of bacteria? How much should she get during that 1x every 7-10 days? I've been giving small amount more frequent instead of large amounts less often. Is that ok?

 

Can I just not do cheese, or is it a requirement? I'd prefer not to have to do cheese unless it is really necessary. I am allergic to milk and I wouldn't impose my own diet on my birds, but I'd prefer not to have to buy cheese if possible. Oddly my diet already closely resembles theirs, it is kind of strange lol! I eat organic and locally grown as much as possible, I make everything myself, I eat a lot of orange and green veggies, I don't eat much fruit or it upsets my stomach. I eat organic whole grains and brown rice. I love sweet potato and kale/collards/etc. I only eat chicken and fish and I like sprouts.

Comes in handy that they eat what I eat and I eat what they eat... I often times snack while I fix their meals and then they snack off my plate. It is just a cute coincidence that our diets are similar.

 

Jayd. The egg is blended in a blender, shell and all, and then cooked scrambled style(minus the oil/milk/butter. I just put it in the pan and constantly stir until it is cooked), then I keep it in an airtight container in the fridge and add it to the fresh food in the morning.

 

So canned fish is ok? I would have thought the sodium would be bad?

[Dave007]

""""Can I just not do cheese, or is it a requirement? I'd prefer not to have to do cheese unless it is really necessary."""""

 

Hard yellow cheese is good for them but not an absolute. If you don't wanna give cheese, fine.

 

Yogurt is the only item I know of that supplies good bacteria.

 

""""" How much should she get during that 1x every 7-10 days?"""""

 

1 to 1 1/2 teaspoons won't hurt but if you don't wamnna use yogurt, fine.

Just remember that a healthy diet plus exercise is what will cause a bird to get healthier. None of the foods talked about in this thread are weight gainers. They're simply very healthy nutritious foods.

 

As far as the canned fish, the blender, method of preparation, the sodium so forth and so on, I pass the microphone over to Jay.

[Jayd]

Thanks Dave, I prefer giving the egg in one piece, that way I can clean the shell extra good...

[Forgive the bold]

 

Here's the chart for Tuna: There's 30mg sodium for 2oz, that's about 2 tbsp, A half slice of good whole wheat bread has 74mg of sodium, The average chicken egg contains 65 mg of sodium according to the American Egg Board. Your bird will eat around 1 tsp, as you can see, no problem...Thanks...Jayd

 

 

Nutrition Facts Serving Size 2 oz drained (56g) Calories from Fat 10

Calories 60 % Daily Values* Total Fat 1g 2% Saturated Fat 0g 0% Polyunsaturated Fat 0g Trans Fat 0g Cholesterol 20mg 7% Sodium 30mg 1% Potassium 160mg Total Carbohydrate 0g 0% Dietary Fiber 0g 0% Sugars 0g Protein 13g Vitamin A 0% Vitamin C 0% Calcium 0% Iron 2% *Percent Daily Values are based on a 2000 calorie diet. Your daily values may be higher or low

[Rrrma]

ah, ok, thanks. I'll pick some up this weekend then.

[Jayd]

Thanks Dave for your invaluable advice..

[Birdnut]

I just want to thank Dave and Jayd for the useful information provided in this thread. This one had me getting out my little notebook I keep for the birds and taking notes.

 

I realized I have not been offering Moussa enough protein foods. Will correct immediately.

 

This forum is like a continuing course in bird keeping. They should offer continuing education credit for it!!!

[zandische]

Rrma,

 

If the vet feels she needs to gain weight, then definitely incorporate any suggestions from your vet. But keep in mind that weight gain can take a long time even if the bird is eating like a pig. If you go work out for a few days, will you notice a weight change? Probably not. If you eat veggies and nuts and grains until you're stuffed every day, and then go exercise for a couple hours, how much weight do you think you would really gain? Most of us would probably lose weight!

 

The best way to tell if your grey is at a good weight is to weight them every day and watch the trend in the numbers. Log it! It makes it easier to see that on a week by week basis, your bird is gaining a couple grams here and a couple grams there. When you go 4+ weeks with no real weight gain, the weight has probably stabilized for a bit. The most important thing I would think is not worrying about a final number, but just worry about a stable weight. A bird that stays consistently right around 470 +/- 5 or 10 grams on a daily basis, who is in good health and eating a healthy diet, is probably at its optimal weight. Again, your vet is the best expert on this.

 

But just to give you some comparison info - my little Congo is 14 months old and came to us when she was 4 months old. At that time she weighed 340g. I thought that was very small for a congo but she was healthy and honestly, she does have a very small build. In the ten months we've had her she has gained 30g and eats like there is no tomorrow. Most of that weight gain was in the last two months after she molted and I have seen the same thing happen before in a young bird - it's almost like they have a growth spurt after molting. Still, 370g seems small to me, but she is a very petite bird and if you feel her keel/belly, it is definitely well-rounded. Conversely, her brother is only 2 days older than her, but is quite a bit larger height wise and his weight has not changed from 425g since he came to us. He *looks* like a bird that should weigh around 470 based on his size, and I would say he is a little lean through the keel, but definitely not skinny. They get the same diet and the only major differences between them are that he gets more exercise because he flies alot (even though his wings are clipped) and he also hasn't molted yet. Will he get heavier? Perhaps. But for the last 10 months his weight has been stable, so that tells me that even though he seems "bigger", his weight is normal.

 

Whether they are flighted, plucked or molting can also affect their weight. How much time out of the cage exercising, climbing, flying etc can affect their weight. Stress and dietary changes can definitely affect their weight. Birds take a long time psychologically to adjust to new things so it makes sense that their bodies will respond as slowly as their heads! It may take a year for Norma to get to her normal weight, or it may happen in just a few months. The key is to watch the weight trend and look for when it stabilizes out. That's the only way you'll know what her perfect weight *should* be.

 

Just a side note about the protein: I used to give my birds protein in the form of pellets, eggs, animal fleshes and sprouts every day. Apparently that was too much and it caused a build up of uric acid which induced kidney infections in both birds. Had this not been treated it could have led to gout in the long term. Now they are on a lean protein diet of sprouts, veggies, fruits and cooked grains. They are completely off pellets (approved by my vet) as the sprouts provide more than enough nutrition to compensate for pellets. Occasionally we give them a piece of chicken, egg or fish if we have it. In the wild, greys do not eat other animals. So just keep in mind that too much protein can be very harmful. If they are on a pellet diet already I would not recommend adding more protein unless your vet finds that they have a deficiency.