Psychological trauma like I have never seen - need help

[babysweet]

Thank you so much tarm - just the information I needed, and I agree that living condition is first and foremost.

 

Let's just see what works out with this "breeder".

 

<sigh>

[Jayd]

The dosage for Cod liver oil is: 1 Drop per 500 grams.

[Jayd]

I refuse to let this woman profit from Jakob. I can't take him unless she waives the fee, improved.

I'm really sorry, this bothers me...

[chelseaB]

How very sad, I don't think she has Jakob's best intrest in mind at all. If she really cared about him seems she would jump at the opportunity to place in in a home with a knowledgeable caretaker who is willing to spend A Lot of time trying to rehab him & give him a chance at a good life.

I hope she comes to her senses, & bless you for trying to help him, and the special dogs also.

[babysweet]

Jayd - what bothers you, the woman, or my reaction?

 

Chelsea - thank you for your support. Don't get me wrong, I have an issue with anyone who emails me and expects me to drop my adoption fee simply because they're providing an animal a home, the "something for nothing" crowd. But this is more of a "giant problem with a price tag" at least from my perspective.

 

Maybe I wouldn't be so sensitive if I hadn't removed fees myself in the past before. We've placed puppies with deformed legs, dogs with no bladder control, older dogs and dogs with severe behaviour issues at no cost to the family involved. Every one costs us money - more money than we have, frankly. But if that family is selfless enough to knowingly deal with these issues just to give this animal a chance at a loving life, my conscience just will not let me charge an adoption fee. But maybe I'm biased, and so I'm reading the situation wrong.

[GoDiego]

But this is more of a "giant problem with a price tag" at least from my perspective.

 

I personally would not look at him as a giant problem, but as a parrot with individual needs different to other parrots. Price tag or not, if you have fallen in love with him and you want him for this reason and you are confident that you can help and care for him how he requires, then surely he is worth it?

[babysweet]

I wasn't suggesting that Jakob was a problem, but certainly this is not a saleable animal.

 

What this boils down to for me is values. I can't support this.

 

It's like seeing a special needs puppy in the pet store (or any puppy!) and buying it because you've fallen in love with it.

 

That doesn't solve the problem that you've also just ensured another puppy the same fate by freeing up space cage, and ensuring that those parents will likely continue to be bred because people are still foolish enough to buy the puppies, deformed or not.

 

I just can't support that behaviour.

[Jayd]

I personally would not look at him as a giant problem, but as a parrot with individual needs different to other parrots. Price tag or not, if you have fallen in love with him and you want him for this reason and you are confident that you can help and care for him how he requires, then surely he is worth it?

 

I also agree with GoDiego... It's not the money, it's helping the bird, if one can do it...We've only sold 5 birds in our career. If we have the money, we buy the bird, then do all we can to help it, "if" we can't keep the bird,"if" it can be re-homed, we do it for free. Parrot's are unique unto themselves, sometimes they live, sometimes they don't, some improve, some don't, it doesn't matter, the bird is all that counts. We all have are own feelings and beliefs, I will not judge you for what you believe, or do. Thank You Jay

[birdhouse]

What this boils down to for me is values. I can't support this.

 

... you've also just ensured another puppy the same fate by freeing up space cage, and ensuring that those parents will likely continue to be bred because people are still foolish enough to buy the puppies

 

... I just can't support that behaviour.

 

I see your point & agree with it, but only to a point. Jakob is a specific situation & if this breeder got him through until he found a safe & healthy environment then they did a good thing, even if it wasn't for the best reasons.

 

Everyone has expenses & limits as to what they can afford. If the breeder doesn't chose to make Jakob a humane cause & neither does anyone else, then Jakob will live in his nightmare until he dies from it.

 

That is the most important thing. Jakob is the reason that all of us are invested here.

 

No guilt or pressure intended, here. You may or may not be the only one of us who are in a position to rescue him. Paying this breeder for the privilege is just another sad issue in a long list.

[judygram]

I am going to throw in my two cents worth here, I understand you don't want to "buy" this bird because the breeder will only fill the cage with another but the bottom line is you want to help this grey and if that is true then you will have to "buy" it. This bird definitely needs someone who can spend the time and give it individual attention and if you can provide that then you should do the right thing and get this bird. This bird's welfare comes first and foremost and if I were you I would give this bird a chance for a happy life, it deserves no less.

 

That is the most important thing. Jakob is the reason that all of us are invested here.

 

I totally agree with Birdhouse.

[danmcq]

I wasn't suggesting that Jakob was a problem, but certainly this is not a saleable animal.What this boils down to for me is values. I can't support this. It's like seeing a special needs puppy in the pet store (or any puppy!) and buying it because you've fallen in love with it. That doesn't solve the problem that you've also just ensured another puppy the same fate by freeing up space cage, and ensuring that those parents will likely continue to be bred because people are still foolish enough to buy the puppies, deformed or not. I just can't support that behaviour.

 

This is a paradox that will never be solved and eludes to the simple question of " Do you want to rescue this bird?". If you do, then there are not "conditions" as you are saying you have. Whether you pay money for this bird or not, the thought you put forth is "IF you rescue this bird, it will leave an empty cage" and thus another spot to be filled once again. You rescue dogs, well they leave empty cages behind as well, just waiting to be filled once again, yes even in the SPCA.

 

In my opinion, if the breeder took the bird back (which MANY would not) they have my utmost respect. That is a sign of a very good breeder that cares about the well being of their babies even after the sale. So, knowing this person is a breeder with tons of experience. It begs the question of WHY this grey needs to be "Rescued?". The reality is, the breeder will either need to keep the grey and get it straightened out or find a very experienced parrot person willing to pay "Some" money for a bird they are willing to help and love unconditionally.

 

Bottom line: There is only one solution to your paradox. Leave the bird so the cage remains filled...............Just walk away........

 

That is not my view of rescue at all and believe me, I know rescue!

Edited August 9, 2010 by danmcq

[Spinner]

Interesting.....

 

This thread has gone from someone looking for specific answers to one about the merits of paying or not paying for an "unsaleable" bird. I'm reading into the thread that this is about someone looking for assurance to move ahead or looking for rationale to walk away, along with some tools towards success.

 

If you want to rescue this bird and feel you are competent to do so, commit and get on with it, regardless of conditions. If you can't commit (for whatever reason), then you've done all you can.

 

What specific questions remain for you that we might be able to answer? And, thanks for bringing us this thread - it reminds me to feel lucky to have such wonderful pets and friends.

[babysweet]

I understand the positions you've all put forward. I do.

 

Would I do just about anything to help Jakob? Yes I would. But that does not include bending my moral values.

 

I've discovered that this woman is not the original breeder. She took him in for free with the intention of re-selling him. Simple as that. She does this frequently, from what I can see.

 

I can not support this. This bird should have gone directly to a rescue group who could deal with his issues and find him a new home. The breeder took him in for resale, essentially.

 

After contacting Barbara Heidenreich (and the breeder accusing me of lying about it) she advised me on a few details, but mainly suggested that I contact Pamela Clark (please, any references for this woman, pro or con, are very very welcome).

 

I explained the situation to Pamela, and she agreed with me that this is not a "transaction" and should not be treated as such. She also agreed with me that massive amounts of veterinary and behavioural specialist opinion is going to be required, and will likely not be free. I have forwarded the email to Jakob's caretakers, and have yet to receive a response.

 

The good news is that Pamela had some incredible insight into Jakob's potential issues, what his goals should be and has agreed to consult with me about him if he does make the move to our family.

 

"I have consulted on a large number of cases with phobic Greys, and have been interested in the fact that the majority of them begin to show this behavior at the age of 1.5 years. There must be something developmentally at that age that predisposes them to developing this problem, but I don't have any idea what that might be. However, there is never just one incident that causes the problem, do Jakob was likely well on the way to developing this level of distress and this one incident just pushed him over the edge."

 

They did mention that Jakob's former owner did state the bird had always had a level of fear from the moment he was purchased. To me, this suggests that this is a long term issue meaning and even longer rehabilitation. It's good news in that we have a bit more insight now though.

 

I will keep you all posted on whether I receive another contact from Jakob's caregivers. So far they have been silent since our last telephone conversation, but perhaps I will get a response to the email I forwarded yesterday.

 

Thank you all for your opinions, suggestions, and your honesty.

[GoDiego]

I'm glad you contacted Pamela Clark, this was the person I suggested in a previous post. She has had years of experience rehabilitating parrots and I think that you have made a wise decision getting advice from her. I really hope that this ends up with a happy ending.

[babysweet]

Hi babysweet, I am no way experienced enough to offer advice on rehabilitating such a traumatised parrot. However, I have come across some information about seizures which may be of use to you http://www.avianweb.com/seizures.html I've also found some great information from a lady who re-homes special case parrots, including traumatised ones at http://www.parrothouse.com/pamelaclark/secondhand.html She also talks about providing care for a blind parrot, did the vet say anything about why her eyes are not pinning?

 

I'm sorry I could not offer you any personal experiences but I hope some of the information helps, maybe you could also contact Pamela Clark who is the lady in the 2nd link.

 

Good Luck with everything and I hope it turns out to be a happy ending

 

 

Sorry about skipping that link - somehow my brain got stuck on the blind comment, and for some reason I thought the post was for blind parrots. That'll happen after a few dozen hours of reading posts, books and emails. ;O)

[Tweedle]

Hi Babysweet - afraid I've not got the experience to add anything, but I've learnt lots from this thread and related links, and considering the many issues that have been raised in a difficult decision making process. Many thanks.

[animalINSPIRED]

I hope the breeder comes to her senses and realizes this is what's best for Jakob. Especially now with the leads Pamela has given you, you have the potential to do wonders for Jakob. Wishing you the best and that all goes well.

[babysweet]

Well, Jakob will not be entering our family.

 

Turns out that after forwarding Pamela's comments to Jakob's caregivers, they gave her a phone call and reamed her out for being judgmental. This woman can talk for hours about the same subject and only say one thing just fifty different ways (customary for people who like to talk about something but know little about the subject). (*edited to add that just in case of possible confusion, Pamela is NOT the long winded one of the two women being discussed, and there is little doubt she knows just about all there is to know on the subject*)

 

Surprise, surprise, Pamela was less than impressed. They made it sound as if I had forwarded the entire unedited email, which I did not, and said who else knows what.

 

I'd be surprised in the future when I do need a bird behaviourist if Pamela would even take me on as a client at this point.

 

And of course, not a word from Jakob's caregivers, because why deal with me directly when you can go around me, right? Also harder to control the conversation when the other party actually knows the true details.

 

We are extremely saddened by this turn of events, and I do take full blame for it. Had I handled the situation differently, perhaps we would have succeeded.

 

Thank you all for your welcome, your help, your brainstorming, your criticism and your cheerleading. It was ALL helpful.

 

Take care.

Edited August 11, 2010 by babysweet
clarification

[GoDiego]

I'm really sorry to hear the news Babysweet, I feel even worst for poor Jakob who is no better off because the humans won't come to an agreement. For me personally, I probably would not be able to walk away if I was in this situation and would be doing everything I could to get Jakob home with me. If deep, deep down you believe that Jakob could have a healthy, happy and contented full life with you then would it not be worth just on this occasion to bend your morals slightly just for this situation. Sometimes everyone has to sacrifice something for the welfare of others. Think about this, if you don't buy Jakob then for sure somebody else will at some stage. But this person might not be able to give Jakob the love and specific care that he requires. The end result is, the breeder STILL gets her money whatever way but Jakobs future happiness and welfare has been put at risk.

[babysweet]

A few things have happened since I last posted.

 

About a day after hearing from Pamela and her tearing me a new one (deserved, admittedly) Jeff and I talked about Jakob and decided that his caregiver was not someone we wanted to deal with any longer. A while later, my husband got a phone call, asking me to call them back.

 

I strongly prefer to do EVERYTHING I can via email so that there is always a paper trail. We take in special needs dogs, and it's not uncommon for people to read the update of their surrendered dog who has now been rehabbed and suddenly they claim that we were supposed to just make the dog better and then give it back. Email prevents this from happening, as I can always whip out the one where the owner has described all of the behavioural issues and their begging me to take their pet and make it "not their problem".

 

Anywho, I didn't call them back. We only have one phone in the house right now (we run on cells only and my own got eaten by a dog - awaiting a replacement... and yes, it happens often) and so I emailed them and told them that they were welcome to discuss the situation with my husband (we're a team after all, and we're on the same page) or they could email me quite easily.

 

About half an hour ago I got an email from Jakob's caregivers asking when I would like to come and pick him up.

 

I'm stunned, shocked... well, you can imagine.

 

My initial reaction was to get in the car, drive there immediately and get him. However, we have a vacation planned for the weekend of the 21st. We vacation once a year, every year for the last seven years. We gather up all the dogs and drive to Peterborough to stay with a friend - amongst about a dozen different dog loving families and a few dozen dogs. It's an amazing experience, and we can't not go for reasons I can explain and reasons I can't... but regardless, we would be leaving that weekend.

 

My neighbour, who has always watched my dogs and exotics when we leave, offered to do whatever it took to make Jakob comfortable while we were gone, but I just couldn't think of a way to do it that wouldn't totally send this bird off the edge. Even having her stay here in our home while we were gone, a new person so suddenly after the move could set us back - and that's the last thing we want.

 

So I've emailed them and asked them to keep him until the monday we return. We're going to come back early, likely Sunday afternoon, pick up Jakob and the two of us can spend the day observing him (if they agree to keep him until then). This also gives us time to completely construct Jakob's living area from the ground up.

 

What I've decided is to give him our largest cage (the largest that EZCage makes, the playtop) and remove the front door. We've also decided to build him a nest box both inside and outside of his cage. Food and water will be both as well, as will toys although to my knowledge he has never played.

 

All of my birds we've ever had through the house have learned their colours at least, plus whatever behaviours they seem to enjoy are put on cue. It will be interesting to see what it is that creates the breakthrough that says "toys are FUN!".

 

So, there it is. As it stands right now, Jakob will be with us by the 23rd. Of course, I'm still hesitant... the whole situation has been so volatile that things could change at any moment. Fingers and wings crossed that between now and then things stay calm, and the end result is Jakob gets his new home.

 

And of course, as always, comments/questions/suggestions/complaints welcome. ;O)

[judygram]

This is wonderful news and I hope it works out for you for you sound like you will give Jakob a very loving home, sometimes things happen for a reason but the important thing is it looks like Jakob has a new forever home, keep us posted and I look forward to the 23rd and the celebration.

[GoDiego]

Fab news Babysweet, I'm so pleased for Jakob that he will now have a loving home to go to and recuperate!

[babysweet]

Thanks to everyone.

 

Interesting information regarding eye pinning.

 

So it turns out that while eye pinning has been associated with pretty much every emotion a grey is capable of, it has been determined that it is NOT associated with fear.

 

This is how afraid Jakob is. In almost an hour of sitting with him and observing him, I did not see him pin his eyes even a single time. Since I had never seen this from a grey before (or any other parrot, for that matter... with my amazons pinned pupils basically meant "I'm awake" - it was only the pinning coupled with other physical cues that really told the story) I assumed there must be something physiological.

 

Turns out it's pure, unadulterated fear.

 

So that's good news and bad news. Means we're no closer to answer, but it does mean that I know pretty much 100% that all we're dealing with is fear/phobia.

 

Also good news/bad news, fear/phobia is almost always fixable - but it's one of the longest treatments in behavioural modification.

 

That's where we stand. Jakob is a bird who, if my limited observation means anything, feels literally nothing but fear.

 

My heart breaks and I just can not wait to get him home. Wish we weren't going away, but we can't miss the weekend and we need time to get Jakob's stuff together anyways.

 

 

Another interesting thought. Read a post about a fearful bird (was it one of yours, Jayd?) that was brought home and put on the tallest perches possible to build his confidence.

 

Jakob's caregiver (whose bird behaviour knowledge is questionable) says to put him on low perches - nothing about 4' or so, and certainly not above eye level. We've generally used this rule with most of our birds, particularly the Amazons who can be quite aggressive with little provocation - and a high perch is usually enough to elicit a higher level of aggression - but this bird seems to contain no aggression whatsoever. He's terrified.

 

If raising his perches and allowing him to perch near the ceiling makes him comfortable, or makes him feel "big" and proud and dominant... isn't that what he needs? Obviously time must be spent one on one, but when he's hanging out on his own, why not let him get as high as he wants if it makes him feel safer?

 

Suggestions?

[GoDiego]

This is from the link I gave you of Pamela Clark

 

There is much behavioral advice that warns against allowing a parrot to perch above your eye level, since this can encourage aggression. However, I have learned that it can benefit a fearful parrot in the beginning to provide them with the greatest feeling of physical safety and this means begin up high. Thus, I made sure that Gracie’s first cage in our home was up as high as was practical; I used a temporary cage set up on top of a table.

 

It's so sad to hear of such a beautiful creature to be so afraid, has any light at all be shed on what could have triggered this?

[babysweet]

No light thus far. I'm waiting until I actually have Jakob in my hands before I contact his former owner - or at least attempt to, there's some debate about whether that information will be released to me.

 

I'm just trying hard at the moment - both to be totally, 100% prepared for his arrival (my yearly vacation is also my yearly recharge, so post-vacation is a great time to start working with him as my own baggage will be lightened), and to not get too excited. After everything we've been through, I wouldn't be surprised to suddenly learn the situation has changed.

 

Until he's home I won't relax totally. But until then, I'll be working on being as ready as possible.