You're HOW OLD ? ! ! ?

[birdhouse]

I'm sure I'm not the only member who has a bird with an unknowable past. While it isn't essential to know how old he is, it would be nice & it could be helpful at times.

 

I know health, diet & care might make any physical clues misleading. But, in general, I believe the ridges along their beaks start to develop at some point. I know their feet get more scaly. At what point & to what extent, I don't know.

 

So my question for the Grey Matters Brain Trust is the best way to go about guessing what a bird's age might really be.

[Dave007]

Well, just so you understand something--Dry scaly feet have nothing to do with a bird's age. That can happen for many reasons to all birds no matter what the age is, even a baby bird. As far as ridges go, very young greys have a very shiny black beak and that beak has what looks like a crack going from left to right. A quick look and it may seem that a new beak is growing under that crack. You can see the exact same thing on many species of birds. That too eventually disappears. Unless you're referring to that left to right crack when saying *ridge* then I can tell you greys have no ridges on their beaks. The major change in a grey's beak usually happens as the bird gets a little older and starts to scrape the beak from left to right on rough things. That happens to get things off the beak or just clean the beak. The shiny black smooth beak is scraped away and the beak looks extremely scratched, weather worn and the color is usually very dark grey.

The exact same thing happens to Timnehs but is less noticable because of their corn colored beak.

 

Edited June 28, 2010 by Dave007

[birdhouse]

I did realize that feet scales can change from health problems. I just meant that healthy baby feet look so smooth, like baby skin. You can see the baby face, the gray eyes, the extra smooth beak & feet for a while. But after that...?

 

Other pets go gray. Their teeth change. They get stiff. They're coat may change color or condition.

 

The birds that I've had long term have looked the same for decades. Phenix actually looks better to me now than he did 10 years ago. As we've/I've learned more about diet & nutrition, I think he's become even healthier overall. But he doesn't run riot as often & I think he's slowed down a bit in the past few years.

 

So, maybe that should have been part of my original question. If there isn't any other way to tell, what is the progression of aging behavior? Like how often should a bird look like Emma pole dancing (thanks Donna) when they're say 20, 40 or 50?

 

Of course they're all different. But maybe some of the members could post about how their older birds compare to those spring chickens (as my grandmother used to say)?

[pearllyn]

That's a good question, and one I will be interested to hear the answer to! I don't know, so will read the replies you get with interest!

[birdhouse]

:confused: I'm surprised. I was really hoping to get some more feed back to this post. There's a lot of information devoted to most other geriatric pets but not parrots. Or at least not that I've been able to find. It seems logical to me that parrots should should have changing needs as they age, just like anything else.

[Luvparrots]

Great question. I have an older re-homed eclectus that I believe is older than the hills. He is pretty set in his ways and very easy going. Calm and unchangeable.

[Birdnut]

I really have no expertise to address your question, but here are my thoughts. I think it probably goes to the predator/prey thing. I don't think prey animals can afford to show their age. Just think of it. As soon as they would begin to experience weakness of any kind ... boom! It's curtains. Other than the things Dave mentioned, I doubt you would see much evidence of aging. Health problems would be less about age, and more about their nutrition and general state of health. I wouldn't expect to see much evidence of aging until close to the end of a bird's natural life. My two cents worth.

[Dave007]

don't really know what kind of an answer you're looking for.

 

"""So my question for the Grey Matters Brain Trust is the best way to go about guessing what a bird's age might really be. """"""

 

After a parrot is about 6 /7 yrs old, there's no way to tell how old that bird is other than to go back through the bird's past and ask previous owners how old the bird was when they had him/her..

There's nothing physical that happens that tells a bird's age other than when a young grey gets to a point where the iris starts to change to a lighter shade. At 5 yrs old, all greys have reached maturity as far as iris color goes. With some, it happens more quickly, others more slowly but at 5 yrs old the change is complete and the bird's eye color has reached it's final stage signifiying adulthood.

The condition of feet as far as scales, color of scales means nothing because all birds tackle different things some rougher than others and the feet eventually develop harder, darker or lighter scales. Color of the feet and legs means nothing because greys as well as other parrots have different shadings in those areas. A very young child starts to grow up and uses the hands for many other things and that causes wear and tear on the hands making them not as pretty as when the child was a baby. Callouses develop. The same goes for adult humans. When that happens to a child or adult , it doesn't mean that the child or adult is about to be ill.

 

""""Other pets go gray. Their teeth change. They get stiff. Their coat may change color or condition."""""

 

Parrots don't have teeth. They break up food with their beaks and the tongue pushes that food that's been broken forward towards the front of the beak in case the food is still to large to swallow. That baby black beak changes because the bird starts to eat different harder things requiring more complex usuage of the beak including scraping at things for many reasons and that too is a natural habit. Baby birds don't do that to an excessive extent. That baby black beak changes because as the bird gets older it's used not only as an eating tool but also as the bird's hand. As they get older, they start to tackle harder, more resilient toys that requires the beak to do other rougher things in order to deal with those types of toys.

 

The most beautiful feathers on a grey can be seen when the bird is very young. As time passes with molting, bathing, sun bleaching, dryness, itchiness, increased production of protective dander, the feathers get more resilient and that baby feather color fades away. It's a natural process which has nothing to do with age and it happens to all greys in different degrees both before and after adulthood.

 

The most beautiful hair can be found on a baby child. As the child gets older, the hair can change color, become wavier, get thicker yet when this happens it's not possible to tell how old the kid is because the above can happen at any time. A parent would have to be asked about the age just like a parrot owner would have to ask previous owners about the bird's age.

 

Even avian vets can only guessimate how old an adult bird is.

 

The conditions you mention don't necessarily have to do with disease because most parrot diseases are either intestional or parasistic in nature and either of these diseases cause drastic changes in appearance and behavior of a bird.

 

An adult grey doesn't play as much as a baby grey and that has to do with the way nature has designed the bird to be. They play but only very selectively and that can happen in early or late adulthood.

 

At one point in every outdoor wild bird's life it becomes impossible to judge the age other than it's ability to breed. The sex can be known but the age remains a secret and all parrots are wild animals and will remain so even if they're pets.

 

Maybe some of this helps.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Dave007

[zandische]

I've been pretty interested in this subject too. Along with what Dave said, diet factors can also play a big part in the bird's "appearance" - things like lots of omega 3's, vitamin E, and vitamin A in the diet can drastically improve the appearance of beak, feet and feathers/colors. We helped rescue a grey last year and I was certain the bird was not more than 8-10 years old. He was beautiful in all outwardly ways - feathers, eyes, beak etc - so obviously he had a really good diet, and he just looked so youthful. But when he was reunited with his owner we found out he was actually 18. They'd had him since he was a baby, so kudos to those people for giving him such a healthy life!

 

I suspect there are scientific ways to tell, but those are probably things done only on necropsy, since to do them while the bird is alive is probably too invasive, dangerous or impossible.

[birdhouse]

Thank you, all & Double Thanks to Dave. I've always thought it was impossible to tell from all outward appearance. But I had to ask.

 

:confused: BUT, it still seems that logically, there should be geriatric guidelines because parrots have to break down gradually, just like the rest of us. :confused:

 

For example, wouldn't it make sense that they might not absorb vitamins the same way after a certain age? Or shouldn't their bones get brittle just like any other old bones? Changes in eyesight? Tendinitis, arthritis?

 

Is it just because birds hide their symptoms so well that normal wear & tear rarely gets noticed? Do so few birds live their full potential lifespan that we don't have enough info to sample aging populations & make guidelines? How many of our birds are 50 yo, but their current owners can only guess they're "older than the hills"?

 

Yes, this kind of a fixation.

 

No, I don't know where it came from.

 

It just seems like a big gaping hole that shows that avian medicine has a very long way to go. I just don't want my fids to pay for it, if I can possibly avoid it.

[Luvparrots]

I agree it is a shame that we can't tell the age of our re-homed greys/fids unless we can follow their history. As for my eclectus I know he is at least 10 years old. The owner of the pet shop had him and tried to re-home him for 7 1/2 years. He was found in a car wash and the pet shop was called to come get him. I have had Sully for about a year-and-three months. He was not a baby when he was found and was already a plucker so I guess he is at least 10. I say he is older than the hills because he just acts old. He doesn't play but like to be with me and wants to be in a cage. He must have the lights out at 7:00 pm or he screams bloody murder. I wish I knew how old he is.

[zandische]

I think if you know your bird is "old" then it's probably true that he isn't as spry as he used to be. But keep in mind, we know so very little about birds anyway, and it's very likely that avian vets don't really understand all that happens to birds as they age, considering that avian medicine hasn't exactly been at the forefront of veterinary science. I'm sure there is research being done somewhere, but the real advances in avian medicine lately have been on the side of how to help your bird live longer, not necessarily how to identify when your bird is getting up there in years.

 

Anyway, these are my thoughts on the nature of Grey parrot aging:

 

My guess is that any animal, if fed a nutrient-rich diet, given plenty of exercise and protected from injury, will live to the extent of their lifespan and be in fair shape doing so. The body (including the human one) is designed to live a specific lifespan +/- a few years, and things that dramatically lengthen or shorten that lifespan are directly related to lifestyle (medical technology, nutrition, exercise and lifestyle habits) - therefore it is reasonable to assume that if the body is designed to last so many years, it should last that long in relatively good condition. In today's world humans have two main problems: 1) medical advances have made it possible for the human body to last longer than it was ever designed to do and 2) coupled with poor lifestyle choices, there are a lot of poisons in our food, air and water so that even though we live a long time, we end up with numerous ailments that might not affect us were we to live otherwise. (Just look at those spry 80's year olds you hear about every now and then who look about 30 years younger and claim they've gotten there through exercise and a healthy diet.)

 

The only thing is, birds aren't like us physiologically so I don't think we can expect that they'll get arthritis or wrinkles or feather loss or have memory loss or even osteoporosis just because they're getting old...some of those things are not only lifestyle related, but also genetic. We also need to remember that our parrots are evolved to survive in the wild where their bodies are under much different stresses than in the home and in particular, they haven't had the chance to build up either toxins or genetic conditions that will predispose them to certain ailments. Even though our parrots were raised in captivity, they still have the physiology of a wild creature.

 

But many pet birds (including flighted ones) don't get the kind of exercise or diet they would get in the wild, which has a lasting effect on all of their organs and body structure, overall. A lot of pet birds get injured at various points in their life, some severely. Injury is going to create a weak point in the body that could break down over time, leading to soreness, stiffness and pain. But even so, while I think we could expect that over time our bird's musculature will atrophy (particularly in clipped birds) which will lead to fatigue and lethargy, that their bones may become more brittle and prone to injury, their eyesight will falter, their immune system will weaken, and that perhaps they will be prone to diseases like cancer or heart disease, if the parrot gets proper nutrition, we may not ever see those things happen.

 

Why? Because A) they are living their lifespan, which for a wild creature is designed to maximize their contribution to their flock for the entire lifespan, not just a portion of it and b) because Nature has a way of weeding out genetic disorders and diseases fairly efficiently, so most likely, any degenerative condition (like arthritis) would be directly related to us, not the bird.

 

Therefore it behooves us to provide a good diet which provides optimum levels of nutrients. Hard to do, since we don't really know what optimum levels are! But my theory here being that if we can help our birds live better, which may equate to longer, then it is likely that when they get to that 50-60 year range, they will still be in a fairly good shape because they were designed to be. Which of course doesn't help us identify whether they really are old, but, maybe that's a good thing. We strive so hard to give our birds a "good life" - it's sort of encouraging to think that when my bird is old, he might still be in good shape!

 

Anyway, just my theory!

Edited July 12, 2010 by zandische

[Dave007]

"""""In today's world humans have two main problems: 1) medical advances have made it possible for the human body to last longer than it was ever designed to do and 2) coupled with poor lifestyle choices, there are a lot of poisons in our food, air and water so that even though we live a long time, we end up with numerous ailments that might not affect us were we to live otherwise. """"""

 

Who actually stated or made a judgement about how long the human body should last and what it was designed to do?

 

In 1865 the average life span was about 40 yrs old and with it came many terrible health problems that existed towards the end of that life span.

In 1930 the average life span of people was about 50 yrs old and with it came many terrible health problems that existed towards the end of that life span.

In 1945 the average life span of people was about 55 to 60 yrs old and with it came many terrible health problems that existed.

In 1965 the average life span of people was about 60 to 70 yrs old and with it came many terrible health problems that existed.

In 2000 the average life span was 70 to 75 yrs and with it came many terrible diseases I've heard that in the stone age, a life span was 25 yrs old but that's hearsay so I won't state that as a fact. I don't know if it's true but I definitely know it was younger than 40 yrs old.

During all of these different life spans, there were poisons in our food, water and air. There was polution. There was untreated meat and poultry and vegetables and fruits.

 

Medical technology helped in fighting and finding cures for many things which than constantly increased those life spans. Diseases were overcome. Children who had deadly diseases were now able to live a much longer normal life. Other diseases that were rampant have been eradicated. People in other lands have had their life spans increased through medical technology. Knowledge about deadly diseases have been implemented.

A woman who had breast cancer and the only way of dealing with it was a mastectomy can now have a less drastic lumpectomy, will live longer even those that person doesn't change her life style which may not be ideal..

People with osteoparasis can now live less painful more lengthy lives. The same holds true for Lupus. Natural high or low blood pressure at one time would have killed a person. The % has drastically changed.

 

Presently ( according to what you say about the latest life span

_""""there are a lot of poisons in our food, air and water so that even though we live a long time, we end up with numerous ailments that might not affect us were we to live otherwise.""""""

 

During all of these different life spans, there were poisons in our food, water and air. There was polution. There was untreated meat and poultry and vegetables and fruits. But then, modern technology stepped in and the scientists and medical world advanced and tackled these existing problems and loads of success happened.

Life styles may not have changed but life spans did.

 

So, my questions are this-----

If this conversation was taking place in 1945, would the life span of the people of 1930 be considered the correct, normal life span as opposed to the 1945 life span? In between 1930 and 1945 did modern technology step into an area that it shouldn't have? After all, it was the medical and scientific world that increased that life span.

Exactly, what is the correct life span? Who made that judgement and upon what criteria was that judgement made?

Edited July 12, 2010 by Dave007

[danmcq]

Exactly, what is the correct life span? Who made that judgement and upon what criteria was that judgement made?

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The only thing I know Dave, is your post is spot on in regards medical advances. If not for them, I would have died at 5 of scarlet fever, my brother would have died of appendicitis at 8.

 

So heck, I don't know. I figure I'll live until I die. ;p

 

It is sad though, that there is no way to age a bird. Good for them looks wise though.

[judygram]

So heck, I don't know. I figure I'll live until I die.

 

You think!

 

It is sad though, that there is no way to age a bird. Good for them looks wise though.

 

Yeah lucky them for the rest of us certainly show our age!

You ask some very interesting questions Dave but what a thought provoking post, thanks a bunch.

[birdhouse]

This certainly got interesting... Not what I'd been shooting for exactly, but really interesting.

 

So, ok, we've got no clues. Bird vets got no help. Birds... ain't talkin.

 

You'd think I'd admit defeat, BUT NO-O-O, not me!! :rolleyes:

 

Now I'd really like to see how many people in this worldwide group of how many people representing how many birds can say for sure their bird is over, let's say 35 yo ...??

 

WHO'S GOT THE OLDEST PARROT AMONG US??

... no cheating, please!!