new in this forum

[sinaigem]

Hi everyone i joined this forum yesterday and i am really glad i did . Already read a lot of great info.

My name is susi and i live in Egypt . Have a rescue since 6 years and am still not any closer then in the beginning . My madam is not getting tame whatever i try to do . l never intended to get her but like with my dogs once i took her in i think i am very dedicated to give my animals the best . Now with her i am at the end of my wits and first time in my life think : maybe i am not the right person to be with her . As i mentioned earlier i have her since 6 years could not get her to accept me , even all the tips i got - giving her time - talking to her , singing to her , she would until now not except a treat from my hand . I cant handle her - she learned how to step up on a stick - would never step on my hand . Yes we had some bad luck - i got her a friend , the captain , and after 3 years he unfortunalty could get out and flew away . I looked for him for weeks but could not find him again .

She was very happy with him, they decided to live in one cage and did everything together . Well after he was gone she did not show any despair ,just the same . I was very worried that she would start problems ( Picking , screaming ) NO nothing . and she is as scared from me as on the first day .She growls like a doberman if i come into the cage . Lately we established a flock whistle - and in the evening and morning she calls me but when i go to her she stops and growls . Dont know what is the opinion of you bird lovers out there . What can i do - should i try to get her another mate? Should i just except the situation as it is ? She does not look miserable to me but i feel like she should have more then just be there on her own . Please i really would appreciate any ideas and if you can share your wisdom with me . Thank you all

[judygram]

Hello Susi and welcome to our family, we are so glad you found us and we look forward to hearing more about you and your grey.

She might have been a wild caught grey since she still does not want to have any contact with you since you have had her and you have had her now for 6 years, thats a long time to not be able to get her to step up for you, she should at least be tolerant of your being around her. I am afraid I am at a loss as to what to tell you to do, I have never been in your situation before and we may have to get some of the more knowledgeable members to give you some advice.

You are doing what you should be doing to earn her trust but she may be happy just the way she is, some do not want any touching and she obviously doesn't so you may just have to accept her the way she is.

You could try to get her another mate but she may not be so accepting of another one so hold off on that idea until you hear from some of the members here. When you deal with rescues you never know what you are going to have to deal with and they bring baggage with them that they never fully unload.

You may find some helpful advice in our many threads so do read thru them and ask questions you may have and we will help you in any way we can.

We would love to see some pictures of this grey if you have some you would share with us, btw, what is her name?

[sinaigem]

Thank you very much for your answer and yes i will try to post some pics from her and the late captian. She is named madame . And yes i was hearing this before that she is a wild caught - living in egypt i guess there is a lot of smuggling going on . I also considered of not buying her because i do not agree with the wild catching business , but she looked really miserable ,and she was kept in a dark room in a tiny cage - i could not not buy her . She def. has a better life then in this pet shop. Of course not better then in the wild. I am looking now for ababy from a breeder - because i am not sure she will want a playmate and so i will get myself the bird i desire and maybe only maybe she will be learn from the baby . Anyway thanks for your advise and i hope i will still be able to learn a lot from your members .

[Acappella]

Don't give up on Madame yet Susi. I have some questions. You mentioned she does whistle to you, but does she vocalize at all? Does she talk, imitate household noises, mumble to herself, talk to toys etc... Knowing that would give us an indication of how happy she is overall. How big is the cage she is in? Is there room for her to spread her wings, play with toys? Does she know how to play? Do you provide her with foraging opportunities? Especially if she is wild-caught (poor baby), foraging would be a natural behaviour. Where is her cage located? Is it in an area of the house where she can observe household activity, but still feel safe? A cage should be against at least one wall, or in a corner, for a nervous bird to feel more secure. How many hours of sleep does she get a night? What is her diet?

 

When I think of the trauma a wild-caught bird goes through it makes sense that they distrust all humans. I would recommend you treat her as if she just arrived in your home today. When you approach the cage try to put your eyes at least level with her, or even a slight bit lower. It also helps if you 'shutter' your eyes, let the lids be half-closed, or approach from the side with one eye totally closed. When we approach a frightened bird straight on from above with both eyes open and focused on her, we look like predator animals, and they are the prey, so you have to make yourself look less threatening.

 

How close can you get to the cage before she starts with the grey growl? Mark that distance, and then set up a chair there and just hang out. Read aloud a bit, talk back and forth, or just sit and read a book yourself, just get her used to you being at that distance. Then slowly (and I mean over a matter of weeks possibly) move that 'just hanging out with her' chair closer to the cage. If the growl starts, back up a bit. I'm serious when I say this could take weeks, but you're 6 years in, you obviously have patience on your side.

 

Getting a baby and letting her see you interact with it may work, but you would always have to treat Madame as #1 in the flock, greeting her first, feeding her first etc... I would wait until I'd given birdy re-hab a few months of focused attention because a baby is a full-time job. Let us know the answers to the questions above about Madame and we'll see if we can advise you further.

[sinaigem]

Wow ! you are right to the point here ! I will try to answer all your questions as good as i can. Oer the 6 years situations have changed a lot of times ( i relocated to another city ) sometimes i have more time for her , sometimes she was left pretty much with her companion because she seemed happy then . As i also have 2 boys to take care of there was times where i just left her living with us in her cage and be . Well when i got her i did not know anything about parrots and i for sure made mistakes , not knowing i did them . I placed her in the middle of the house , because i was told she should be in an busy area so she would get used to all the household members . I realized very soon ( by reading ) and doing that that is not a good idea . then she was in a cage ( big enough for her to spread her wings I would say the cage is about 100 x120 high . I left her out pretty soon maybe after a week or so and after a day or so she came out . she would come to my dining room table and she would eat seeds about 1 meter away form me . She was not as terrified but never closer then 1 meter . I left her pretty much going and coming as she wanted . She had a T stand next to her cage which she got used to as well . Never played with any toys . Never let me come closer then this range. Growling bad! . If she went on the floor she had to come up on her own me far away . IN the evening she would go to her cage and go to sleep . aFter a year of this - not much change i got the captian. He was much friendlier but not really tame . Would not let me touch him . They bonded ! After about 3 weeks they chose to live in one cage . After another month or so i took the second cage off. They were happy - i was too. then i relocated house and we came to cairo . they were first placed in a cage in the house . Both scared and not so happy . The house was much smaller and i had 3 kids with me for a year - my husband was not happy with them in the house . So i build a big aviary in the garden . She is located right in front of the terrace and has view into the house . the aviary has her cage inside so she can retreat , if she wants to . Well then the captian ( second parrot ) escaped . IN all this time she never stopped growling and i was never allowed to handle her or come close . The captian by now was also more scared because i think of her behavior. - They seemed o.k and i even saw them mating but never gave them a box. They by now were both on a diet ( they only got seeds before i got them )

of all kind of fruits and veggies , seeds nuts , yogurt , some times cheese ect. The captian flew a way . she showed no distress after . I was really worried she would start picking or anything else - i saw no diffrence in her behavior . So i stared to try to clicker train her . Since she was alone i thought i have to busy her a bit more . She has all kind of diff. toys in her aviary , swings , tyres ect. She seemed quite o.k She started to step up on a stick . she loves to pick on tree or palmtree(dried) leaves , or she bites thte roof ( material cotton ) from her aviary - she actually shredds it . She only articulates in the morning or before sunset. I rarely hear her during the day except if somebody comes in to the garden that she does not know . Then she makes a certain sound like a bird does . dont know how to describe it but i know by now it is the sound of - hey there is somebody ! I liketo sit in her cage and i will sit on the floor talking to her . As long a she is on top of me she is tolerating me but if i am above her she panickes . ( unfortunately i have to travel with her every couple of week s- we are commuting ) I cannot get her in her travelling cage with out catching her with gloves - major stress for her . But i have nobody to look after her when i have to go back to sharm. So i have to collect her. While travelling she is covered and by now she seems to be at least o.k with it . IN sharm she is in her old cage but also outside on the terasse . I am a lot around and she has view into the house . NObody bothers with her any more - she managed to put all of my friends and family off by her horrible sounds. So it is only me interacting with her. at the moment i can get into her cage and walk around and take her food bowl and she would not growl but as soon as i turn my attention to her or face her or try to make her step up she is a doberman. Also as long as i am alone totally she is much better - anybody around - she is really immediately growling .I dont think i will get the baby so soon. AS it looks like i will wait for another 2 years then i am stable again in sinai . MOre peace for me and the birds. I really appreciate any advise and help . I know my circumstances at the moment dont help at all but are not changeable for the next 2 years . if i could handle her she could come back inside the house so this is what i am working on at the moment . Yes she is not clipped and she never tried to bite me. But i never forced her to do so I really try to listen to her and give her the space she needs . Catching her with the gloves hurts me more then her i guess because it is always a step back for a while . She does not like any toys that are out of plastic or colorful she prefers twigs , wood , Cotton in nature colors . She likes to shredder things LIke the bycicle tyre which is her swing . she needs a new one at least ever month or two . IN cairo we cant get toys for bird so i resource to selfmade toys . a cotton mob or wooden creations . She always needs a few days of not touching them then she destroyes them in no time . You are the first mail i get who really wants to know more in detail what is happening to my madam . Thank you again and i hope to hear from you soon . HOpefully my info is any good and if i left anything out please ask for more details . Oh yes she is now on a pellet diet ( with very little seeds and lots of greenery. with gratitude Susi

Dont really know what you mean with foraging , could you explain please ?

Edited July 4, 2010 by sinaigem

[Dave007]

As I see it, your main desire is to have a friendlier, closer relationship with your bird and the bird is already an adult who has lots of previous habits.

Actually, what you're doing is making it very easy for your bird to distance himself from you.

 

1-- So I build a big aviary in the garden .

A parrot will find a large aviary very appealing. Much more so than a cage.

 

2--They seemed O.k and I even saw them mating but never gave them a box.

Whether you gave them a box or not, the act of possible mating can cause 2 things--deeper affection for each bird or a very aggressive attitude between the 2 birds. Both of your birds liked it.

 

3--I cannot get her in her travelling cage with out catching her with gloves - major stress for her .

Yes, and that should stop when dealing with a bird that has a semi--wild personality. Actually, gloves shouldn't be used on any bird. Parrots are very afraid of gloves. They never get used to them.

 

 

4---I know my circumstances at the moment don't help at all but are not changeable for the next 2 years .

If things remain as they are in an aviary for a longer period of time, the situation will be that much harder to deal with.

 

5--They bonded !.

That creates a farther distance between the owner and the bird/birds. Breeder birds are in a similar situation because owners don't want to interfere with the bonding process. Breeder birds aren't pets.

 

6---After about 3 weeks they chose to live in one cage . --

all pet greys need their own cage in order to have any type of relationship with the owner. Putting 2 birds together allows them to bond together and distance themselves away from the owner.

 

Soon enough, your bird wild have the desire to stay out there all the time and that's what you'll have to deal with. Their personalities and habits can't be changed. Food, toys, trees won't change them. Having access to all of those things in an aviary makes it even less appealing for the bird to wanna become a house pet.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Dave007

[judygram]

Dont really know what you mean with foraging , could you explain please ?

 

Foraging is looking for food, that is what the grey would be doing in his natural habitat and providing foraging opportunities means putting some food in things that the bird has to chew up or work with to get to the food, it takes time and it keeps the bird busy trying to get the food in whatever container holds it, you can buy foraging toys or make your own, we have a toys and playstand room where you will find lots of ideas and suggestions for making your own to provide your bird with foraging opportunities. Hope this helps.

[sinaigem]

Hi DAve thanks for your answer , i appreciate it , o.k i get that there is things i do wrong , what is the alternative for getting her in the travelling box? i tried to make her step on a stick which she does , but then if i want to move her towards the travelling cage she flies off. Would it be better if i cut her flying feathers?

Yes i actually got her a second bird thinking that o.k if she does not want to be with us maybe she will at least not be unhappy alone . But since the second is gone i will have to make her living conditions different because i think, to sit alone in an aviary is not healthy . So what is your suggestion : Do i put her inside again in the house in a smaller cage ?

I can do that but the travellng is not going to change . Is it better to let her travel in an open cage so she sees what is happening or do i cover her so she is not frightend .Do i take her in her living cage but then i have to put her in a for my taste too small cage . the stress of catching her would be gone though.

yes Dave i do want a friendlier bird, this is my desire . And i provide her with what ever i think is good for her (toys ect. ) I also try to spend as much time as i can spare around her . I just thought being in an aviary gives me the opportunity to be with her and train her while she cant fly away . When she was in the house she used to panic and fly against the wall when i came to close to her stand, so no way of letting her step up . I could do that in the aviary and she could not get hurt .I am asking for advise because i made mistakes with her , this is why i am asking for help from people which have more practical experience then i do . I think i read almost every page i found on the internet about greys , i informed myself as much i could in books but now i am stuck with personal conditions and would be happy if somebody could give me advise of how to handle the situation as best as i can .

[sinaigem]

Thanks for info - no i do not provide her with this but i will in the future . It sound like a good way of keeping her busy .

[Dave007]

Wing Clipping

Well, wing clipping is very controversal on most bird boards. Some think that it'll solve problems, others don't. In your situation, you should know that you have an older adult bird that has always had it's wings and my opinion is not to clip the wings if you think that doing it will help in any way. It really won't and it'll possibly anger the bird and you won't get positive results but that's just my opinion but I base it on many other people that have done it with little or no good results.

""Is it better to let her travel in an open cage so she sees what is happening or do I cover her so she is not frightend ."" That's up to you. I say uncovered but only you knows how he reacts when you're doing that. Usually, a bird will eventually calm down if what you're doing is done often.

""Living cage""

I assume you mean the cage she normally lives in at home. Well, that's hard to do but I feel that if you get a smaller cage such as one that's 20 inches x 20 inches and 3 ft tall will be just fine. Of course, you have to decide whether you even want that open cage. No one can answer that question. It's up to you. That size cage will be fine in an office during the day. A few toys, a couple of small bowls for food/water, perch that resembles a branch in an area where people won't be able to stick their fingers in and annoy him.

A lot of the questions that you ask have to do with an older bird who may stay just as he is. It's not unusual. Loads of people have pre owned adult parrots and simply accept the bird and it's habits and personality. What satisfies these people is the the knowledge that they're providing a home for a creature who deserves a home. Many people learn to enjoy their parrots even if the parrot is distant, not cooperative and a little unfriendly when it's close up with the owner. I know you don't like hearing it but you may have to accept and realize that your bird has a personality that can't be changed very much. He's an older bird. Believe it or not, he's very happy right now. You just don't know it. It doesn't take much to make a parrot happy. A safe home, decent food and water, friendly people around, chatting with the bird makes a bird happy.

""""But since the second is gone I will have to make her living conditions different because I think, to sit alone in an aviary is not healthy .""""

As far as an aviary is concerned, I never said it would make a bird unhappy. An aviary is a more natural place for a bird. Many birds that are given to reserves are usually put in aviaries.

""""Do I put her inside again in the house in a smaller cage ?""""No

If you do, the cage must be relatively big ,set up with natural items a bird likes, items that let a bird get very nasty with such as heavy duty hanging bells, wood that can be destroyed. As far as the size you have, unfortunately I don't know what 100 by 160 means in American measurements. Sorry. But the cage should be big..

The things you say you're doing with him all sound good in my opinion. You're giving attention but that doesn't mean that a bird is gonna change it's behavior when the time comes that the owner wants to change it.

"""I think I read almost every page I found on the Internet about greys , I informed myself as much I could in books""

Lots of people do and they come away very unhappy because of all the different answers that are given concerning one subject such as biting--(just an example I'm mentioning).

There were setbacks such as having another bird in the same cage. It's not your fault. You just didn't know so don't hit yourself on the head.

Another Bird

That's up to you but you need to know that they need to be separated. Each needs it's own cage. That's very important. Will a second bird make your bird happier? Yes. AS LONG AS THEY"RE SEPARATED. By doing this, you'll be accepting the fact that your bird is gonna stay the same way as it is right now. Many people get a second bird. Some even get more. Some people say it's good, some say it's bad. I say it's an individual choice. People who have second and third birds will tell you that the birds all communicate with each other in parrotese ( bird language). That's true. Maybe you won't understand what they're saying but they do.

Think about what you wanna do. Now you have a list of possible directions you may wanna try out.

Under it all, just remember that you're dealing with an adult pre owned bird that is set in it's ways. It's not impossible to make that bird happy but you may have to give up some of the things you would like to happen.

 

A home cage

 

 

An Office cage

 

Edited July 5, 2010 by Dave007

[Jayd]

One big THANK YOU, to Dave and everyone.......Jayd, Maggie....