Red African Grey

[Lex]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbvsaemHBHk

 

why would you want to do something like this? sad really.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Lex

[Birdnut]

Yeah. We humans just can't seem to let well enough alone. It's just weird.

[ozziebird]

how cruel and sad!

[Mawnee]

Forgive me for being the odd guy out....but I dont see the problem in this? You guys are acting like they dipped the bird in paint or something? It was born like this, not subjected to some coloring torture. They simply paired birds that had a chance to have a baby this color.

[judygram]

They are messing with the natural coloring of these birds in hybridizing these variations, its just unnatural to me and I think greys are beautiful in their own chosen coloring, why mess with perfection.

[Mawnee]

But its not a hybrid. They are breeding greys with greys. Its not like they crossed it with a macaw or some such. They are simply choosing greys that show some red feathers to breed together. Its no different than the breeder that chose two healthy birds of a certain size or coloring when they put together a pair to breed your grey.

[Dave007]

That video plus a couple of others from the same person have been around the net for a couple of years. The bird wasn't naturally born like that . It took about 10 to 14 yrs to get that result. It involved an extremely large amount of pairs of birds. It had to do with years of hybridization which isn't looked upon as a good thing because of many side effects birds like that can have. The full age, temperment, personality of these birds was affected.Theres a few other species of parrots that have gone through the same thing. There's too many beautiful parrots in this world that people can enjoy. In the wild, what the person did couldn't happen. On most bird boards, what he did isn't looked upon as being a good thing. It serves no purpose. And YES, the birds are definitely hybrids. Crossing different species of birds isn't possible and has nothing to do with hybridization. AND, the 2 other birds on the stand with the red one aren't the parents. They too are baby birds.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Dave007

[Mawnee]

I fail to see how any of that is different than the process used to breed our greys.

 

How would this be any different than than me deciding to breed my grey. Then someone who got one of my babies deciding to breed that one....... and then one of those babies being bred.

 

Yes he selected offspring who were best for breeding a desired trait(color). Then selected from those the best to breed and so on. I fail to see how that has any direct effect on full age, temperment or personality..... However, are you suggesting those traits are more "correct" to make breeding selections on over color? That would just be a matter of opinion, based on the assumption these birds should only be bred to be companions to humans.

[Dave007]

The bird's genes are affected. Messing around with a bird's genes isn't a good idea. Is it my opinion--yes. Is it a known fact --yes. Do avian vets recommend it--no. You'll have to ask those vets about that.

 

Maybe I should have put the sentence below which is now bold in the right place

 

****The full age, temperament, personality of these birds was affected****

Mix a blue and gold macaw with a green wing macaw or mix a scarlet macaw with a military macaw or a blue and gold macaw with a green winged macaw or a military macaw with hyacinth macaw or blue and gold macaw with with a scarlet macaw etc etc.

 

All of these different birds have different life spans, different personalities, different sizes, are either more sociable or less sociable, can get along with a family or not get along with a family.

 

Mix all of these birds up, breed the offspring to other off spring and the results of what was done and in no way will the off spring remotely resemble the original male or female that was used. Also, some of those birds turn out to be mules. There's absolutely no way to know the results of all of the offspring so---------

 

****** The full age, temperament, personality of these birds are affected*****

 

And I'll say one other thing----I would find that completely red bird extremely appealing if it was done naturally by greys who are living in the wild but they don't. It was artifically done and hasn't served a single purpose or furthered any knowledge about greys other than the genes can be mixed and altered for esthetic reasons.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Dave007

[Mawnee]

Are you saying we should just not breed those birds with shorter lifespans, leser temperment ect? Is such a trait is directly tied to a particular color then we should jsut stop breeding that color alltogether? If he is mixing birds with low lifespans with birds of higher lifespans then its just a "cup half full arguement". Some would say he is shortening the lifespan of breed "A" while some would say he is lengthening the lifespan of breed "B"

 

 

As far as the "mules", unless he is taking them out back and shooting them I dont see a problem there either. As long as all the birds bred are properly cared for who cares which bird they are allowed to breed with? The only way I'd have a problem with it is if he were to go out and release a bunch of reds into the wild population and pollute the wild gene pool.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Mawnee

[Dave007]

I explained how it was done. I explained how long it took to get done. I explained the results of other species that do this and what can happen. I used macaws as an example. It's a known fact that the species shouldn't be tampered with because of many unknowns. This may not be important to you.

 

***As long as all the birds bred are properly cared for who cares which bird they are allowed to breed with? ****

 

I care.

 

AND no one can say what quality those birds were in order to get to that goal.

 

****Some would say he is shortening the lifespan of breed "A" while some would say he is lengthening the lifespan of breed "B"****

 

They're not breeds, they're called species This species is known as Congo African Grey and he shouldn't be lengthening or shortening the life span of any species of bird for appearance sake.

 

Thousands of dollars were spent just to be the first kid on the block to do this.

 

**"cup half full arguement". ****

 

I believe that people should have a full cup of whatever and I believe that the cup should be full to the top with natural healthy ingredients.

I've done my part. With the information supplied, it's now your time to further investigate this subject.

[danmcq]

I have the same opinions of these mutations being capitalized on as Dave007.

 

Fact: The Red Factor is a Mutant gene.

Fact: If you selectively breed pairs that both have this mutation, it will become more pronounced.

Fact: it took a decade due to using many pairs with this mutation, waiting for their offspring to reach breeding age, then breeding those offspring to further amplify the mutation.

Fact: The pure red grey is a result of this mutation reaching it's maximum potential.

Fact: This means the natural health of breeding pairs keeping mutations to a minimum and thus health and life length to the maximum has been defeated.

 

Thus resulting in a bird that will have unknown health and age ranges, until they age and those health issues are observed over their lifespan.

 

It is similar to the health issues you see in specific "Breeds" of dogs that have had mutations capitalized upon to produce a breed. These breeds then have the ill effects felt such as hip dysplasia, wobblers disease causing paralyzation of the rear legs and loss of bowel control and shortened life spans, just to mention a few. Thus, mutts that are products of a large gene pool are always much healthier and live longer lives.

Edited June 19, 2010 by danmcq

[Mawnee]

You guys are making alot of negative assumptions. For the sake of your arguement you are suggesting that every bird that shows the red pigment has some kind of negative trait. Unless the breeder comes out and states that he is purposely breeding siblings or cousins that is a bit of a reach. Whos to say that red grey wont live to be 80 years old and be the kindest and most socialable bird ever seen?

 

 

 

And please keep in mind I am not trying to upset anyone here. Simply trying to understand differing points of view. I respect and appreciate everyones input

Edited June 19, 2010 by Mawnee

[Jayd]

If I may? Dave and Dan are correct in all respects. Last year I fledged Hybrid Macaw's and Amazon's, I've personally lived with and seen the out come of such breeding, that's another story,. Here's more on these poor birds, one thing, they have soft mandibles. If it is necessary for man to create a mutation, than it is for his own amusement!

 

Possible Mutations / Different Colorations: African Greys with red feathers scattered throughout the plumage are occasionally seen. Such birds are often referred to as " Kings "or "King Greys" and are marketed as more exotic and desirable. However, such red feathers scattered in areas where you wouldn't expect them can be an indication of damaged feather follicles (usually because of feather plucking), medication (for example administration of antibiotics at the time a bird is molting has caused temporary changes in feather coloration - these feathers are usually replaced with normal coloration feathers at the next molt). There is also a good possibility of sickness, malnutrition or over-supplementation (please refer to african grey nutrition), liver disease or kidney problems. Although it is possibly that genetics is involved and that it is a mutation. It is easy enough to differentiate that -- depending on whether an African Grey developed these red feathers over time (which would be an indication of health problems), or whether they were born with it, which would point towards genetics / mutation.

However, several recognized mutations occur naturally in the wild, such as the F2 Pied Mutation, which results in a broad red band across the abdomen. In 1998 the first Grey mutation was created when South African bird breeder Von van Antwerpen and New Zealand partner Jaco Bosman selected F2 Pieds and created the first red African Grey.

Other mutations include:

 

• Albino (no pigment)
  
• Lutino (yellow pigment)
  
• Incomplete Ino (mostly white, but with small percentage of melanin)
  
• Grizzles (soft pinkish scalloped found in its feathers)
  
• Blues / White-tailed Mutation (white pigment in the tail) - A white-tailed mutation has been bred in New York City - please refer to the below photo. i will email you some photos. The blue mutation turns the red tail and rump white. Since greys are grey and hence lack psittacine, they don't actually turn blue (information provided by Lien Luu - breeder of this mutation.
  
• Parino (very light scalloping found in its feathers)
  

http://www.avianweb.com/africangreys.htm

Edited June 19, 2010 by Jayd

[Mawnee]

um, all the negative effects in your post are said to be possible causes of random red feathers, not the other way around. Nothing there says that a bird born with red feathers should be any more inclined to have any such problem. Mutations in and of themselves are not defects or weakness.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Mawnee

[Lex]

i also go with what dave and others say how many red african greys in the wild do you see? just like messing around with the crops where will it end?. good views on this topic.

[danmcq]

You guys are making alot of negative assumptions. For the sake of your arguement you are suggesting that every bird that shows the red pigment has some kind of negative trait. Unless the breeder comes out and states that he is purposely breeding siblings or cousins that is a bit of a reach. Whos to say that red grey wont live to be 80 years old and be the kindest and most socialable bird ever seen?

 

And please keep in mind I am not trying to upset anyone here. Simply trying to understand differing points of view. I respect and appreciate everyones input

 

Good questions and comments Mawnee.

 

You hit on the key questions, what will the answer what the over all health, personality and life span will be of this Red Grey. That will be an unknown until these complete their life cycle.

 

I believe we are simply raising the standard concerns when this type of breeding takes place.

 

I truly hope and pray they live a healthy and normal life.

[Mawnee]

....

I truly hope and pray they live a healthy and normal life.

 

Me too. It certainly is a special bird. I hope it lives a long and happy life

 

At least we know it will be given ample opportunity to......procreate

[Lambert58]

I fail to see how any of that is different than the process used to breed our greys.

 

How would this be any different than than me deciding to breed my grey. Then someone who got one of my babies deciding to breed that one....... and then one of those babies being bred.

 

Yes he selected offspring who were best for breeding a desired trait(color). Then selected from those the best to breed and so on. I fail to see how that has any direct effect on full age, temperment or personality..... However, are you suggesting those traits are more "correct" to make breeding selections on over color? That would just be a matter of opinion, based on the assumption these birds should only be bred to be companions to humans.

 

We see this in dogs quite a bit. Breeders focus on one trait to the detriment of the dogs. It can often involve inbreeding and lead to serious health issues with the dogs. It's cruel and selfish on the part of the breeders. It displays a complete lack of knowledge, or total apathy, regarding the health of the dog/bird. It's criminal and I'd love to have a little chat with any breeder that does this. With no witnesses present.