"Because I said so!" versus Freedom of Choice.

[oblivion]

A discussion started based on some surprising (to me) responses I got in my greeting thread.

 

In summary, my cockatiel is trained to step up to leave her cage and go back in when I tell her "in." I had intended to work on this with my newly acquired mature (13 y.o.) TAG once settled in. Everyone who responded suggested just letting the bird(s?) in and out as they please (when safely supervised, I presume). This goes against a few books I've read (Guide to a Well-Behaved Parrot and My Parrot, My Friend). I'm looking to extend that conversation here.

 

Perhaps my example scenario of a fire in the house was too extreme, but based on that conversation, it seems very few people (none of those who responded if I understand correctly) train their birds to step up from the cage, or go into the cage, on command. Everyone said they leave the door open and the birds climb in or out at will. I understand that these are smart birds with desires of their own and they should be granted some latitude to express them when safe. Like my 3 year old child who looks to me for guidance and safety, however, are there not times (less extreme than a fire in the house, say returning them to the cage when having to leave for work or getting them out for a vet visit) when "Because I said so," is the proper response?

 

I'm not saying EVERY exit and entry to the cage should be strictly demanded. If the bird doesn't want to come out and you don't NEED him/her to come out, leave well enough alone. But isn't it advisable/desirable to train in that response for when it's needed and not have to resign yourself and bird to a towel and/or bites?

 

Further, if I don't have this 'Because I said so," trump card, how do I keep from getting walked all over by my birds?

 

Insights and further explanations appreciated.

[Jayd]

If I may? These books are excellent general parrot books, they don't address the special need's of the Grey. These sites might help you a little better.

Jayd, Maggie, Spock and the flock

P.S.Remember, a book and hands on experiences. are to different things!

http://www.maggiewright.net/

http://www.alexfoundation.org/

http://www.africangreys.com/

Edited June 16, 2010 by Jayd

[JJsHoney]

Let me see if I can word this correctly Rene is let of his cage every morning when I wake up, some mornings he swings out with the door others he is content to sit and wait for his breakfast. The majority of days he is able to sit in/on his cage and play stands through out my house, this changes when I have things to do for the day, I do not let him decide when it is time for me to leave, even though I have adjusted my schedule to allow for putting him back in his cage I just go over and ask him to to "step up" then I place him inside his cage, I explain to him what I am doing where I am going etc and how long I will be away I know he understands, when I tell him I am going to the store and will be back in awhile he goes and gets something to eat and just relaxes, but if I tell him company is coming he immediatly goes to one of his bells and rings it which is what he does when company is here so that we can't enjoy a conversation LoL. Sometimes he isn't so willing (he will lean away from the cage) and I have to slow down back away from the cage and wait for him to relax, the point of this is caging should never be a bad thing there are plenty of times when he needs to go in (repair man at the house, guests etc) 9 out of 10 times there is not an issue. I also give him an almond or something to reward him when he goes in. I also wouldn't say that he "walks all over me" but he being a Grey he gets A little more reassurance and understanding when it comes to everything in his day to day life. Bazil my quaker is treated differently, he is very cage aggressive so when it is his time to come out I have no choice but to let him decide, (to save my fingers) but once away from the cage and placed on a play stand he is content to be picked up whenever and put back. Bazil doesn't have the emotional response like Rene has when something happens Bazil just shrugs it off and moves on, Rene looks as though he is pondering what just happened and either re-creates it or trys to fix it. Like just today Rene broke my earing, he picked it up off of my lap and brought it back to my ear. Bazil would of watched it fall and then moved on to the next thing to destroy.

No one ever taught Rene to go in or out of his cage on command it is just simply how it is.

Dan is correct about being tought to step up, that is worked on daily, with games etc.

Edited June 16, 2010 by JJsHoney

[danmcq]

I'm not saying EVERY exit and entry to the cage should be strictly demanded. If the bird doesn't want to come out and you don't NEED him/her to come out, leave well enough alone. But isn't it advisable/desirable to train in that response for when it's needed and not have to resign yourself and bird to a towel and/or bites? Further, if I don't have this 'Because I said so," trump card, how do I keep from getting walked all over by my birds? Insights and further explanations appreciated.

 

Perhaps a little more clarification on my statements in the other thread.

 

Yes, all birds should be trained to step-up.

 

I was addressing the extreme view of the bird would do it "everytime" without question, no resistance or choice whatsoever.

 

Both my birds were trained from day one as babies to step-up. It the first and most important thing to teach any parrot.

 

My birds will step-up normally when taking them out of the cage or just wanting to move them somewhere. But, there are times my Grey will not lift his foot, which is the first and primary indication he does not want to be "Taken" out by me. I must pay attention to the body language or I will receive a nip either as he steps up or just a lunge bite. However, I am not the "Favorite" of my Grey, but with my wife being so, he will have his foot up before she ever opens the door most times. So I "respect" my Greys desire to come out on his own, when he indicates it is what he wishes to do.

 

 

As parrots age, they start realizing they have their own desires and choices to make and will start showing through body language and perhaps speech of them. This is no different than a human growing up. Once they reach an older age, "because I said so" no longer works. They will either ask why or tell you what they desire to do.

This is where the eyes pinning, feathers ruffling and finally if ignored, the biting will occur or if your birds are flighted, they just take off. In my case, both birds are fully flighted.

 

 

This also leads to another point. A clipped bird is basically a disabled bird and reliant on the parront for everything. Most clipped birds will just step-up every time because they know if they don't, they will be left stranded wherever they may be. Now the exception to this, is a T-Stand or the cage. If a bird becomes possessive of them, they will most likely give you a good bite when you try to remove them.

 

 

Most books are a good general overview and advise what should be taught, fed etc. They are right, but they do not address all the other items and situations a parrot owner will encounter that they will need to make adjusts for. Books are simply the authors opinion on several topics. Each one gives the reader a different perspective and way to handle things. The good thing, is if you read many of them, you have a large mental repository of possibilities to explore in working with your "Individual" bird. Each are different and so are the dynamics of the home and flock.

 

 

In regards toweling, I do not use that except for situations like nail trimming or at the vets if I must. My birds view towels as a soft thing we play with, roll up in and play peek-a-boo with. Also, a perch coming at them means FLY!!

 

 

I hope this clarifies my views on this.

Edited June 16, 2010 by danmcq

[Jane08]

Hhmm good question. Greys are special and unfortunately the "because I said so" doesn't go down well with them. I have tried that and you can see their eyes pin, feathers getting prepared for a fight, feet clenching on for dear life and believe me they will pull out all stops not to go in or not to do what I ask.

 

Now if I approach it slightly differently and tell them that I have to go to work or to the shop etc and that they have to go in the cage and explain everything and why then everything is ok. It's like you need to treat them as an equal, show respect and actually ask them instead of demanding. I see my greys as my friends and I treat them as a friend, explain things to them, talk to them all the time about what is going on, what I am doing. I don't see it as they walk all over me, it's more like I respect the fact that they are intelligent and can think for themselves and actually make decisions for themselves. I just use methods to help them make the right decisions when it comes to choices that they have

[oblivion]

Thanks for the great responses, everyone. Jayd, of course you may, that's why I asked. And yes, I fully realize books aren't everything - that's why I'm here chatting with real owners or real birds realtime - but it does bear repeating. That said, I DO need to read a grey-specific book or two.

 

I'm getting a clearer picture of what you all mean/meant and I can't say I disagree. I think through the limitations of text, I may have misrepresented my goals initially. Everything is, of course, a balance/compromise between freedom and safety as seen from two very different perspectives (I mean mine v his, not mine v yours). And of course we're still getting to know each other, but I'm pretty good at reading my cockatiel, so I have confidence I'll get there with the grey as well. I was once told that my 'superpower' is "Communicates with animals." This will be a good test of that.

 

As a follow-up, we're getting on pretty good. He'll step up a bit now, just doesn't stay very long. I can get him from cage to gym and back without TOO many ruffled feathers, so it's looking good. He's a REALLY good eater and enjoyed the skewers I made for him yesterday and the veggies I clip to his cage. I get a few nips, but I carry on if I need to scoop him off the floor or whatever. As they say in street basketball, no blood, no foul.

 

As for wing-clipping, I used to clip my birds, but stopped a LONG time ago. The grey came to me with one feathered wing, and one missing the flights (picked/chewed or damaged against the cage, I don't know, though I HAVE seen him pick out one new blood feather himself ). This leads to some very awkward dives off his play gym (think of a maple leaf). As far as I know, he's never been flighted and at 13, he's pretty clumsy for it. I don't intend to clip his wings. Whether he lets them grow in is a different story - as is whether or not he knows how to use them.

 

Thanks again. The varied perspectives are appreciated.

[Talon]

I always leave my birds cage doors open. In 5 years, I can count the number of times on one hand any of the 3 have gone back into their cage on their own. I only put them in their cages with a noodle treat when I am leaving or having company. When I return,99% of the time open their door and have them step up onto me and they all go onto their potty baskets..... The other 1% of the times, they immediately climb out of their cage and onto the top of the door waiting for me.

I am happy you no longer wing clip! That's my vote!! :)

[Luvparrots]

My Ana Grey and I have a morning ritual. I feed her breakfast in her cage and then when I am ready, I open the door. She immediately, seldom fails, comes out and sits on the open door. I say, "good morning Booba give me a kiss" and she complies with a beak on the cheek. I say "step up" and up she steps or I say "come here" and she comes to me. After that she normal just follows me around by flying. If I am sitting on my lounge chair in the living room and I want her I call, "come here" and she comes usually. If she doesn't then I better go see what mischief she could be in. Is this type of thing what you are looking for??? I just treat her like she is a 3-4 year old child because she seems to understand me but if I don't watch, like any child, she will find things to do that I might not like. Ana Grey is my friend and I try to respect her. At night around 7 pm my ekkie always goes to bed and expects to have the lights out, but that's another story, so I replenish water and food. Ana Grey seems to just go to her cage then for the goodies and I close her cage door. If I say "nite, nite" she will immediately go to her sleeping perch and I turn off the lights and the birdroom door is closed. If Ana Grey for some reason does not go to her cage, I just say nite nite and turn off the lights leaving the bedroom door open. Ana Grey gets the message and goes to her cage and night perch and I go back in and close her cage door and close the bedroom door. During the day if I have to leave the house or feel Ana Grey should be in her cage, I just ask her to step up and place my other hand over her head and walk her back to her cage, telling her that I have to leave or whatever and I'll be back. As for toweling, she is not afraid of a towel, I sometimes cover her over with one and we play around with a towel just so she is use to one being over her, and this is just in case of an emergency. This works for my grey and me. I think when you get your grey, you will see the difference in her and other species. Greys understand. Ana Grey sometimes cocks her head and listens to me intensely and I know she understands, or at least in trying to understand what I am saying.

Edited June 16, 2010 by luvparrots

[oblivion]

One other thing to clarify - I said I may have mis-stated my goals/expectations originally. I do believe that's true to an extent, but I've also altered them a bit thanks to the feedback from this group and I wanted to acknowledge that. Training a grey is clearly not the same as training a labrador* (where I have a LOT more experience) and the subtle (and not so subtle) reminders of that from you guys and from him will go a long way.

 

* Not that I ever really thought it was, but it's easy to slip into old habits or overgeneralize past experiences.

[Birdnut]

Thanks to oblivion for this thread. I'm also new to greydom and found a lot of good insights in these responses. I can already tell that the grey is a really different bird from the rest of our flock. It's good to be reminded how important good communication is. Our approach has always been to allow the birds as many opportunities to make choices as we can.

[oblivion]

luvparrots, that sounds like a very good setup/situation. A realization I had on my ride in to work (motorcycle rides are GREAT for digesting thoughts ) is that what I really want it two separate things - a command and a question. Again, being careful not to over-generalize from dogs, my mom, an excellent dog trainer, always taught me, "Never give a command you can't enforce." Meaning "Sit," "Stay," etc. can never be questions. Sure the dogs have a lot of freedom 99% of the time, but when it's time to 'work,' it's command time. But with a parrot (and in some cases with a dog), what I really want to know is "Do you WANT out?" So, "Up!" and "Out?" are two very different things.

 

Does this all seem reasonable? If so, should just worry about "Out?" now and the "Up!" later, vice versa, or both in parallel? Again, being mindful of not pushing too hard with an older bird in a still-new home.

 

BTW, I know about explaining things to them (going to work, shopping, etc.). I talk to my other pets as well, even if they don't have the cognitive abilities of a parrot. I'll be sure to continue it with him.

[danmcq]

Training a grey is clearly not the same as training a labrador* (where I have a LOT more experience) and the subtle (and not so subtle) reminders of that from you guys and from him will go a long way. * Not that I ever really thought it was, but it's easy to slip into old habits or overgeneralize past experiences.

 

It's to hear you know that training a dog versus training a parrot are completely different. A Dog will look towards the leader of the Pack for queues and if a subordinate gets out of line, it is quickly reprimanded and put in its place.

 

Birds are not like that at all. They hang together as a flock and all are equal and treated a such. The only time a minor fight may occur, is if one gets into the others space, tries to take it's tree hole etc.

 

Thus training a parrot is a mutual understanding of him and you understanding each other and working together as a team. Not a commander and private role. If anything, the parrot thinks it is superior to you.

[Dave007]

It's been left out of this thread so I'll put it in. Before you get so involved concerning all the different things you wanna do as far as training, first and foremost, you should spend lots of time learning about the personality and attitudes of your new pre owned 13 yr old bird. If he's got habits or his own rules or a certain personality that you don't agree with but would like to change those things you should first know what you're dealing with. Dealing with a 13 yr old pre owned bird is definitely full of compromises. Learning about a 13 yr old parrot takes lots of time. LOTS of time.

Knowing the nature of a parrot is important. A parrot is a wild animal but many can be kept as pets. They're still wild though and will always be wild. A cage is not a natural place to keep any parrot because they're wild. Of course, people who have parrots have no other place to put them except a cage. When a wild animal such as a parrot is released from that cage, the owner is doing the right thing because that parrot is closer to it's natural state of being wild. Being in a cage all the time has an adverse effect on the parrot. Training a parrot to go into a cage on command isn't natural because the parrot is being asked to revert back to a situation that goes against being wild. Any good training between an owner and his/her parrot always has to do with the parrot going from the cage to something else that doesn't affect his/her wild instinct. Not visa versa. A person can train a bird to go from the cage to an arm, hand, finger but the parrot is still free. No cage is involved. Training always involves a communication between the owner and the parrot and it involves freedom of the bird if that person is gonna succeed. Training never starts with the bird being in the cage other than having the parrot step onto a finger or hand in anticipation of being free. Actually, it's even hard to train a bird to come out of the cage on command through verbal language. A bird wanting to come out doesn't wait for a command. It waits for that door to be opened. That's why people let the birds in and out when it wants to do those things. Want the bird in the cage? Simply say *step up* and put him in the cage. A fire? I'd love to see a parrot act normal when surrounded or involved in any type of fire.

Training a dog is easy. No big deal unless that dog has to be taught very special things or the person owning the dog has no cocept of owning a dog. A domestic dog is just that --domestic, and there's a level of being domestic that allows for easy training. Does that go for all domestic animals? Well, I bet that a cat can't trained to do the same simple things a dog can do and the reason is because the cat is still closer to being wild even though it's domestic. Can a wolf be trained even though it's a dog? I don't think so because that wolf is still totally wild.

So, my point is that you need to look at a wild animal such as a parrot in a totally different way because you're dealing with an animal who will never lose the desire to be wild. Lots of rules and regulations just don't apply to parrots.

[birdhouse]

Thanks to oblivion for this thread.

 

These posts are a great all around description of the unique grey psyche & other bird comparisons with super first hand examples.

 

Really wish I'd had this collected insight when i started out. I hope every new grey owner finds this very early on in their parronting.