The African Grey – To Clip or Not to Clip

[lovemyGreys]

The debate whether to clip or not to clip your greys is likely to continue as long as humans keep parrots as pets, There are valid points to be considered on both sides of the arguement. I believe it is down to the individual to consider the welfare of your bird, plus your own personal abilities and living situation when making the decision to clip or not.We all have our own personal views on clipping & should as adults respect the decisions made by each individuals.I dont think anyone should have to justify or defend why they have or havent clipped.<br><br>Post edited by: FairY, at: 2007/09/17 09:37

[dblhelix]

{Sports-00020059}

[Guest]

CeasarsDad wrote:

FairY wrote:

 

I don't agree with you on this one... Here humans 'taken away by' stands for being kidnapped. No matter how interesting a life is forced upon you afterwards - kidnapping is wrong. Full stop.

 

OK fine.. Your parents were kidnapped by Aliens and you were born into it.. Hows that?

 

sounds much better there you're right. however then you come with:

 

Living with a loving family of people trumps living wild and always worrying about where the next meal is coming from or when you will have to die in the jaws of a snake..

 

which I disagree with. N-a-t-u-r-e is beautiful- it seems cruel to us as humans- it's there with a reason, it has been millions of years without human interference(read: trying to control it/modifying it) and evolved wonderfully and brought the most sophisticated species about - so, I disagree. However, given that humans are destroying the natural habitats for animals anyway in their strive for personal (financial and comfort) gain, I have, obviously, no objection to people caring for already captured or in-bred animals. Aboutwing-clipping I have only one opinion: everybody that loves his bird will do what he thinks is the best for him - and thus whatever they decide is the best thing, clipping or not clipping.

[Guest]

Monique I hope you don't mind, I've edited the topic title (sorry :blush: )

[nevjoe]

Well said FairY.

 

Joe

[loviechick]

CD thank you for what you wrote!!!! Kudos to you!

[CeasarsDad]

I'm glad you are happy Lovie..

[milo]

FairY karma to you:cheer:

[ccilia5767]

I got Churchill unclipped and so far it stayed that way. I probably won't clip his feathers because I just love how he comes flying to me. He does it because he wants to. I don't have to go pick him up because I want to spend time with him. Quite the opposite, when I have to put him back its hard to get him to stay.

For most part of the day he is out of his cage or at least has the chance to come out when he decides. I only ou him back when I have to air out our apartment or when I cook and until the burners are cold again.

 

Plus one other good reason is, when he has enough of my daughter he can fly somewhere high where she can't reach him.

 

My daughter did take a beautiful pic og Churchill flying. Not as nice as one as MrSpock has as his profile image but still a very nice pic. ( it can be viewed in my profile)

Would miss seeing that if he was clipped.

[dumfatnhappy]

I hope this wasn't allready asked as I didn't read every post in this thread but someone mentioned not clipping till after their first molt. Being an infant in bird caring myself I have to ask at what age should your grey be if you were to clip? the vet clipped Goofball when he was maybe 7-8 months old. And how long does it take to regrow those feathers if they were clipped to say 25%?

[trish]

i had babygirl clipped when she was 7months and PERSONALLY i wished that id have waited untill she knew how to fly then maybe she wouldnt have hurt her chest, but who knows, perhaps ill change my mind when shes flying about something im really looking forward to(i think)

[dblhelix]

Dumfatnhappy -

 

Optimally clipping will not be done until the bird is completly fledged and fully flight proficient. Flight proficient means the bird has learned complete flight control including banking, hovering and landing exactly where they intend to. There is no set age limit, flight is a learned skill for birds. Once clipped the flight feathers will not ever be back to normal until each clipped feather has molted and been replaced with a new one. There is no way to really apply a % to the equation. Feathers are not like hair etc where 1 strand keeps growing. A clipped feather remains clipped until it falls out during the molt and is replaced by a new one. Every bird molts at different times of the year, but usually there is 1 major molt every 8-12 months. Bottom line, if clipped you need to wait until the next molt for the feathers to be replaced. It may take 12 months for all clipped feathers to be replaced. <br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2007/11/17 00:35

[Talon]

WOW! I guess I was lucky. Talon came to us at 8 1/2 weeks old, clipped. We kept her clipped until age 1 1/2.

She is now 25 months old, and she flies beautifully! All over the house, taking corners nicely, never missing where she is headed, and she is so much happier!

 

Thanks for the great info Mark!

[dblhelix]

There are stories of people fledging captive birds at 20+ years that were previously kept clipped their whole lives. The younger the bird the better chance it will learn competent flight skills more easily. Also, each bird will have different tendencies and flight ability if not fledged at the "natural" time when very young. Some may take to their new feathers and flight very easily, some may never gain good flight control and may be phobic their whole lives if previously kept clipped. It really depends on the animal and the owner...the owners enthusiasm, encouragement etc can make a big difference in helping older birds that never knew how to fly gain the confidence to master it. Younger birds will usually get it w/o much trouble. Kip was clipped when we got her at age 6 months. She now has finally replaced all her flights at 17 months and is quite a good flier, though I know she is still not an "expert" B)

[danmcq]

Interesting Mark, you wrote "Kip was clipped when we got her at age 6 months. She now has finally replaced all her flights at 17 months and is quite a good flier, though I know she is still not an "expert""

 

Regarding the replacement of flight feathers, Dayo was clipped at 15 weeks old before we could bring him home that day. His clipped flights, I assume, must have continued to grow for a while. I say this, because he has gained greater flight capabilities as the last 2 months have passed. I assume some of his flight abilities is through building muscle mass also over the last three months we have had him. He will be 7 months old on the 28th of this month.

 

He now has one flight feather that appeared out of nowhere fully extended on one wing. It does not appear to hamper his flying much, that I can tell from being imbalanced between the two wings.

 

I can only assume your experience over the months has been the same? With yours growing new feathers in an imbalanced fashion?<br><br>Post edited by: danmcq, at: 2007/11/17 16:11

[dblhelix]

Yes Dan,similar observation. At least in so far as say, flight # 8 grew in and there was a gap between the last clipped feather and the new one. In Kip's case she had 7 primary flights clipped, so # 4 - 10. I did note that if flight # 8 came in on one wing, the same flight # feather on the opposing wing came in within about a week of that. Therefore, the "imbalance" from wing to wing was naturally very short lived. Certainly there was a period though when 1 or 2 flights were coming in and they were sort of "out there" on the wing, with no supporting neighbors. This period makes the bird a bit more prone to potentially damaging these flights since they have no support network from neighbor feathers until the others grow in. But, Kip was fine.

 

According to the breeder we got Kip from, she was allowed 1 fledging flight and was then clipped on primaries #4-10. So she basically had no flight training in full feather. I am not sure exactly what age that was done at, but she was clipped when we got her at 6 months. However, she continued to try and flutter around with the clipped feathers, gaining strength etc. As the clipped feathers molted and more came in it became very clear that her ability to fly and gain altitude changed drastically. She had a handful of incidents where she flew into walls at first as she was "surprised" and not used to how her wings accelerated her body. But after a pretty short time that is a total thing of the past. She can now control her body, go where she wants when she wants.

 

Regarding flying, I worked with her every day and continue to do so today. First encouraging her to "hop" from say a perch to my hand, and increasing the distance always praising and rewarding her accomplishments...this has been a process over many months and she will now fly to me when she wants and if I call her with my hand raised. She can easily fly now from almost anywhere (low or high) and land very nicely right where she wants to. She can also hover if say intended landing platform (my hand) moves as she approaches. She will hover a moment, realign and then land beautifully. I say to her "Come on Kip, Fly!" She will then start saying "Fly, Fly!" and then take off...I usually know if she is coming as she currently precedes most take offs with "Fly!". <br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2007/11/17 19:41

[danmcq]

Very detailed explanation Mark, thanks!!

 

It sounds like you had quite a fun and sometimes harrowing experience through out the moulting process :-)

 

Did you notice a pattern in the Moulting process as described in the clip from wikipedia?

 

"For example, most passerines have a focus between the innermost primary (P1, using the numbering scheme explained above) and outermost secondary (S1), and a focus point in the middle of the center pair of rectrices.[29] As passerine moult begins, the two feathers closest to the focus are the first to drop. When replacement feathers reach roughly half of their eventual length, the next feathers in line (P2 and S2 on the wing, and both R2s on the tail) are dropped. This pattern of drop and replacement continues until moult reaches either end of the wing or tail. "

 

The ONE feather that has come in is not in the apparent order this article describes. I am starting to suspect that the original Primary was possibly damaged and removed when he was very young and has thus regrown, rather than from the moulting process starting to begin.

 

Did you notice a pattern similar to the one described above?

[dblhelix]

Hi Dan,

 

I did not really pay attention to the "focus" mentioned and if there was a particular pattern of the molting feathers...will need to do that going forward. Certainly I did observe what appeared to be some pattern and tail feathers were involved over the course of the months for all the primaries to molt.

 

Of interest, the quote you have refers to bird order of "Passerines", African Greys are of the Order "Psittaciformes", not sure if that would make a difference in the pattern mentioned, but certainly we are talking about birds from different Orders of scientific classification so it would not be a stretch for there to be differences.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psittaciformes

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passeriformes<br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2007/11/18 06:34

[danmcq]

Thanks Mark,

 

Yes, I realized the species was different, but just wondered if you had noted a similar pattern. Thanks for the links. :-)

 

I can not find any data on the AG specific to molting patterns at all. The only information that does seem to exist, is that the Primaries regrow in a set of two pattern as you noted in your post.

 

I guess I will need to pay careful attention when Dayo goes through his first molt and note the pattern as it takes place.

 

I know, I may be getting a little too obsessed with this, but inquiring minds need to know B)

[Talon]

Mark & Dan,

 

I LOVE when the two of you debate topics like this. I learn so much from both of you, as you research and give such great information by the observations you make, that some of us are just too busy to notice.

THANK YOU for your many contributions to this forum. We are lucky to have you both here!! :kiss: :kiss:

[Makena]

I totally agree with Talon! Your recent comments in this post are awesome. I enjoy reading civil conversations on wing clipping!! ;)

[danmcq]

Thanks you two. Your comments mean alot :-)

[SFsailor]

Just to chime in...

 

My CAG's wings are full-flight and she is very capable of flying (and rather good at it now after the initial crashes).

 

I plan on leaving her wings unclipped and teaching her to fly and return. If this ends up in me losing her someday... well I will be sad... but... I am in a unique situation... I plan on going around the world in my sailboat and in most countries you can't bring a bird. SO... my plan is for her to fly away (or fly up to a perch on top of the boat mast) while the border guards check-in my vessel.

 

Does anyone here have an experience with Grey's free flying and returning to home???

[birdgranna]

You might like to look at this fellows pictures. He has a free flying grey which he flys outside.http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9/

[juju]

i know it hard but best not to clip , train instead .or let him if hes young have a fly around first then clip to train him then let him keep them when they grow back.