The African Grey – To Clip or Not to Clip

[CursingLlama]

I haven't read the entire thread so when I type this I'm speaking in general. Debate is fine except where the debate goes the way of personal attacks... That said there are topics without a "right" answer, there are means of DISCUSSION that do not fall under the category of debate as your are typically building off each other than tearing away at the others opinion.<br><br>Post edited by: CursingLlama, at: 2007/09/14 22:30

[daviddogma]

loviechick wrote:

I think it's rather short sighted to call it abuse, some animals tails are docked and ears are cropped just for SHOW not even for protection, so I think the argument is weak sauce in my opinion. I also find it funny that both of my Greys were rescued from dire situations where they were abused, malnourished, one with a raging yeast infection, the other with a terrible bacterial infection, but yet I'M cruel for clipping wings, how selfish of me...Then again ignorance is bliss.... I suppose it's fruitless to waste time debating a topic in which one of the two parties involved is completely close minded, and more or less making someone feel AWFUL for a decision they have made(not me I am perfectly fine with the CRUELTY AND ABUSE you have so dubbed me responsible of, I'm implying others)

 

I'm stopping here before I get booted :laugh:<br><br>Post edited by: loviechick, at: 2007/09/14 22:01

 

 

1. Docked tails and crocked ears, eh? I reject the analogy to clipped wings. You can draw out another metaphor and maybe I will accept it into this argument.

 

2. You rest your case calling my argument "weak sauce" after claiming rescue and finding an abuse situation "funny". If I were to rescue a child from being raped daily and now occasionally smack him or her around that would be okay?

 

3. Are you referring to me as close minded? Resorting to name calling is considered "Ad hominem" and considered an informal fallacy in an argument. The latin for is argumentum ad hominem and means argument against the man. Please try to attack the premise and not the person going forward. It will make things much less "awful" around here :kiss:

[loviechick]

No this isn't a place for debating and intentionally upsetting others because you are convinced that you ARE right, when in fact there is no right answer, just egotistical people on a soap box.

 

You keep pushing and prodding others with your snide remarks and totalitarian thinking.

 

You may question our logic in clipping a birds' wings? Where's YOUR logic in purposely berating people all thanks to the anonymity of the internet?

[daviddogma]

CursingLlama wrote:

Debate is fine except where the debate goes the way of personal attacks... That said there are topics without a "right" answer, there are means of DISCUSSION that do not fall under the category of debate as your are typically building off each other than tearing away at the others opinion.<br><br>Post edited by: CursingLlama, at: 2007/09/14 22:30

 

Ah, the informal fallacy. The one you speak of is ad hominem. There are many other fallacies regarding debate. O is n X and O is a Q

therefore, All X's are Q's. I see this one all the time. But, I won't get into all of this right now. I simply would like to read how one came to the conclusion of wing clipping using a logical premise other than just convenience or the "I have the right to make my own decisions" routine. Is this really such a hard thing to ask?

[loviechick]

Calling someone close minded isn't calling them a name by any fashion, it's merely making an observation. and by NO MEANS was it a hasty generalization, you have more than backed that conclusion up, and I KNOW I'm not the only one that thinks so. This is my last comment, I'm tired of someone telling me the right and wrong way to live my life because it doesn't appease THEIR lifestyle.

 

And I enjoy how you don't answer my question about where the logic is in you berating people. Your silence says more than enough for me.

 

Also your insulting of the premise is still more or less a personal attack due to the fact that you have made it clear you are NOT open to any other possibilities.<br><br>Post edited by: loviechick, at: 2007/09/14 23:01

[daviddogma]

loviechick wrote:

No this isn't a place for debating and intentionally upsetting others because you are convinced that you ARE right, when in fact there is no right answer, just egotistical people on a soap box.

 

You keep pushing and prodding others with your snide remarks and totalitarian thinking.

 

You may question our logic in clipping a birds' wings? Where's YOUR logic in purposely berating people all thanks to the anonymity of the internet?

 

 

I am not convinced I am right about wing clipping. I just haven't read, heard, or seen evidence which would move me to that school of thought. I apologize if I have upset you in anyway, it was never my intention. I really want to know why people clip wings on birds. Everything I have read has led me to believe it is a convenience issue. Again, sorry if I upset you. Sorry if I upset others with my egotistical snide remarks. I am beginning to think this forum isn't a good fit for my brand of reason.

[daviddogma]

loviechick wrote:

Calling someone close minded isn't calling them a name by any fashion, it's merely making an observation. and by NO MEANS was it a hasty generalization, you have more than backed that conclusion up, and I KNOW I'm not the only one that thinks so. This is my last comment, I'm tired of someone telling me the right and wrong way to live my life because it doesn't appease THEIR lifestyle.

 

And I enjoy how you don't answer my question about where the logic is in you berating people. Your silence says more than enough for me.

 

Also your insulting of the premise is still more or less a personal attack due to the fact that you have made it clear you are NOT open to any other possibilities.<br><br>Post edited by: loviechick, at: 2007/09/14 23:01

 

close-minded - not ready to receive to new ideas

 

 

I am open to another possibility regarding wing clipping. I just need an explanation. If convenience is the only reason to wing clip then I guess I am close-minded to it.....

[loviechick]

Makena answered your question, and so did I along with others, are you so blind to prove your point that you didn't notice?

[daviddogma]

loviechick wrote:

Makena answered your question, and so did I along with others, are you so blind to prove your point that you didn't notice?

 

Both regarded clipped wings due to convenience. Makena has a condo that presents potential problems, and you well, you claim all birds should be fledged then clipped due to you being paranoid. I guess I am blind to prove my point, because I don't feel like I have my question answered.

[Guest briansmum]

clipping is for the birds safety, birds in our care are domesticated. and as such they have to deal with objects and situations they simply wouldn't encounter in the wild such as celing fans, fires and intruding guests. birds have no knowlage of these things and the danger they impose. their naturally enquisitive nature to understand their surroundings could lead them into unimaginable trouble.

 

clipping the wings gives the owner control over bird and thus ensure their safety in what is essentially and alien environment. if there are dangers in the home would you or would you not do everything you could do protect the creature, whom you deemed yourself a suitable carer for, from hurting themselves?

 

and no i am not biased, my bird is flighted and will continue to be as i am confident in my home he will be safe. i believe all birds should be allowed to fully fledge before being clipped, i am sure you are aware of the studies supporting this.

 

however essentially it is the right and personal decision of the birds carer and i have every confidence that all grey owners i know who's birds are clipped have done so for their birds safety, certainly not for convenience. think about it, it is not convenient, if your bird cannot fly from A to B to have to go get them and move them yourself.

 

there are advantages and disadvantages to both clipping and not clipping and the ultimate decision depends on the individual bird, owner and their living situation.

 

there is NO right or wrong to this.<br><br>Post edited by: xxbeccyxx, at: 2007/09/15 00:28

[Makena]

however essentially it is the right and personal decision of the birds carer and have every confidence that all grey owners i know who's birds are clipped have done so for their birds safety, certainly not for convenience. think about it, it is not convenient, if your bird cannot fly from A to B to have to go get them and move them yourself.

 

You are so right Beccy... It would be so much more convenient for me if he could fly to his playstand, or come into the kitchen when I am preparing food for him!

 

For me, clipping him has nothing to do with convenience... it is purely for the safety of my bird. Makena is still very young and clumsy. It would only take once... and if I can decrease his chances of getting hurt by clipping I am going to!

[daviddogma]

This is why I have been arguing wing clipping is really about convenience. Is it is more convenient to clip the wings of the bird than it is to make the home safer? Or does the wing clipping pose less of a problem than actually making the home safer? It still seems to revolve around convenience to me. If I actually believed clipping Otis' wings would make him safer I would do it, I just haven't seen any evidence to this being the case. If it depended on the individual bird I wonder how many would choose to have their wings clipped. I don't know for sure, but wing clipping doesn't equal safety, at least not in the examples listed above. Perhaps I am just dimwitted.

[fourtrap]

Monique that was a great article that you wrote. Congrats;)

[loviechick]

Ok you're right, I will sell all my furniture, and everything the bird could potentially crash into to make it safer, and just sleep on the floor with a sheet. It's not about convenience it's the fact that the average home has so many dangers it's about protection, but whatever like I said you won't drop the "convenience" thing and thrive off of being a fire starter. I'm done, and your last statement about yourself, spot on.

[Guest briansmum]

you are grasping at straws now. it is not always possible to make a home bird safe, you can't ensure that your kids will always close the door or your spouse will put their tools or nail scissors away, there are no garantees your grey wont fly onto a high ledge and not come down, or out of an accidently cracked window. if you are not 100% confident that everyone in your home is aware at all times of the birds safety or you would be willing to bet your life there is no danger for them then you dont take the risk. take makena's home for example, short of remodelling the whole apartment what choice is there?

 

and yes the bird probably wouldn't choose to have it's wings clipped, but it didn't choose to come to our home either, we brought it here, we took responsibilty for it's life and if cipping it's wings it what it take to keep that life safe then that's that. easy choice

[daviddogma]

I'm really not grasping at straws or trying to win a debate. I am looking for answers to wing clipping that do not involve a matter of bird owner convenience. And, yes the fact that you choose to clip the wings of your grey over remodeling your entire apartment to make it a safer place makes it a matter of convenience. Perhaps this seems absurd to you, and you don't want to admit it is a matter of convenience, but this is what it is. It would be highly inconvenient and costly for you to remodel your apartment when it would be much easier and more convenient to clip the wings of your bird. I am no going to try and logically claim I know your thoughts regarding this issue. Or how you justify it, just that it is overall a matter of convenience. This is all I am saying.

[daviddogma]

And, I know your bird is flighted based on a previous post, I meant "you" in the universal sense of the word "you".

[Guest briansmum]

it is not convenient not to remodel when it is simply impossible for you to do it, if it was me 1)there is no way i could afford a remodel, 2)my landlord would not let me and 3) i am sure remodelling the entire house would cause the bird considerable more stress than snipping a few of it's big feathers.

 

it is obvious you have a very one sided view on this matter and are persisting because no one has agreed with you. you are not going to find the the answers you WANT here.

[Dave007]

A quick correction..anyone's wild parrot isn't *domesticated* no matter how long that bird lives in a home. Give many birds 1/2 a chance and they will fly away simply because it's wild and will remain wild until the day it dies. Parrots as well as other wild animals can be successfully kept in a home but that parrot who flies away will be extremely hard to retrieve. The same applies to snakes, lizards and other wild creatures that can be successfully kept in a house. The huge majority of parrots that escape are never found even though chips are implanted which, in the case of a bird, is a total waste of money. Just another way for the Vet to make money. If parrots are so *domesticated*, there would be no need for harnesses. People have spotted their lost parrots in nearby trees yet have never been able to retrieve them. There are people who've been extremely successful in allowing long distance outdoor flight but those birds are still attached to harnesses that have extremely long leads (30, 40, 50 ft) connected to those harnesses. Yes, people can hinder their ability to go from point A to point B. Yes, people can inhibit their ability to survive outside by taking away their means of locomotion but the one thing that can't be done is to make that wild animal *domesticated*.

If anyone has bird feeders in their yard you'll see all the little birds come to those feeders in the morning until the afternoon ( quiet finally arrives)and then, they'll disappear for a couple of hrs to rest. Turn around and look at the parrots and you'll notice that they too are resting at the same time. For those that have multiple parrots, look at the parrots in the house and watch one preening then look at all the other parrots in the house and you'll see all of the rest preening at the same time. Nature is causing this instinctive behavior and it applies to wild birds be they tiny sparrows on up to macaws. The word *domestication* shouldn't be applied to wild animals whose natural instinct is to go into the wild. This being said, I'll still say that I'm not a fan of wing clipping. The debate of wing clipping will never end so I'll only say this--for those who are proponents of wing clipping, please have it done correctly so that the bird can have at least 8 ft of horozontal flight and have the capability to glide downward into a soft landing.

Dave

[Makena]

I agree with you Mr. Spock, greys are inherently wild animals. The reason why I put the term domesticated in quotes in my previous post was due to the fact that the bird is living in a domestic environment.

 

And because Makena is living in a domestic environment is why I choose to clip him. He doesn't understand the concept of a window, or a hot stove, or a ceiling fan, etc.

 

And don't worry Mr. Spock, Makena can still fly downward with no problem, we made certain it was done right !

[Makena]

And lets be done with this whole "convenience" thing... it is going nowhere...

 

I am sure hours could be spent talking about modern day conveniences... like a cage for example... Lets let it rest.

[itzazu2u]

I have a fully flighted CAG, Bandy. He is a rescue, fully flighted and has never been clipped since I brought him home. He shall forever remain fully flighted but will NEVER FLY! Sadly, at the hands of one of his past temporary homes, he was brutally butchered, leaving one wing that will never grow feathers properly. He has never plucked, and until recently, never actually even tried to flap his wings in any manner, even during a fall. Bandy has been an angry bird and with great patience and care, I have worked with him in order to build his trust. Great strides have been made and he is now trying to build MY trust in him. He has my son...I am happy. In the past year, I have watched this majestic bird slowly come out of his shell and open up. His lack of flight *may* have caused a small measure of his depression but mostly his lack of love recieved in the past, has been his biggest prison. That and abuse. He has finally begun to see kindness outside of the sanctuary of his cage. He has begun to blossom. Granted, I know little of his past, however, I do know the lady who had him prior to me also kept him fully flighted, but cage bound in a small cage. She was afraid of him, and understandably so, given what she was able to tell me of his history. However, I can not feel he would be any different had he never been clipped at all. I firmly believe his anger and issues stem from the shear abuse he endured in his temporary homes in the past. Bandy is a strong willed bird, flighted or not. Trust me.

 

I suppose you would also say I am horribly cruel for maintaining a full clip on my sweet U2. After all, she was a breeder before I brought her home. She is a love, a total joy. She came into my home as a bird who was fully flighted! Yes, how horrible of me. First thing I did was grab the scissors and start clipping those white wings. Why the heck not? She had done a right fine job of chewing all of her flights and most, if not all of her secondarys. Why shoot, she hardly had much in the manner of down and coverlets even. What good were those flights going to do her with out the rest of her feathers? Well, you see, Rose was blind as a bat when I brought her home. I guess I was mean enough to clip her so she wouldn't spook and go flying off and breaking her neck when she might fly into a wall. Heavenly days, I didn't want to deal with cleaning up blood stains if she flew into some window, got cut up and maybe bleed to death! That would be such a headache for me. It would be easier for me to be cruel and mean to her so she would live safely. And would you go figure... She stopped tearing up her feathers AFTER I clipped her! With the help of a decent diet, she's even regained some limited vision too. Now, she still runs into things when she walks around on the floor, but she does have some high contrast vision. I am mean enough to keep her off of sunflower seeds along with maintianing her full clip. Maybe, just maybe, one day she might regain vision well enough to be able to see a wall and not crash into it. Until then, I am quite happy she can't fly because I was cruel.

 

Then there is sweet Bee. Now, seeing as how I raised him, he was able to fledge. He learned to go up, come down, soar all around. He came to me when called...that bird loves his momma. But the day he took off, he was fully clipped. He was also scared whitless. He had never had so much room to fly it before! There was no ceiling, walls, no kind of boundary and he didn't know how to handle it at all! Oh, and there were big mean birds with gurmbly tummys out to get him too! Yep, you bet I clipped his wings when I got him back in the house. I am thankfull I am cruel enough to want to keep him safe from something like that ever happening again. I really don't have the best fitting window screens either.

 

Now, LO. I can shave that bird bald, but believe me, if a p let wants to fly, honey, he's going to FLY and do quite well at it. I just don't clip him any more. I gave that up a long time ago. Same thing applies to the keets and lovies. You just can't keep the smaller birds from flying when they want to. If Redneck Ray, that towel loving tiel of mine, decides to take flight in to the stew pot one day, I might just do one of two things. I might add a touch of salt, a dash of pepper, toss in a clove of garlic and call him supper. OR, I might take the scissors to him. All I know is I can't keep a big towel with me all the time and I don't like getting bit either. Yup, he's a redneck bird, through and through. Then there's Cotton, my daughters tiel. Oh yeah, he is plenty old enough to fly but he just wants to hang on to the finger. I think he must be a huge eagle in a tiels body. He keeps trying to carry us away. I have told him and told him over and over, "Cotton, if you would just let go of the finger, you might become airborne!" He just won't listen...sigh. Sufice it to say, he isn't clipped...yet.

 

I am not saying clipping a bird is right or wrong. I feel, as I tried to demonstrate above, this choice should be based on the individual bird and the environment it lives in. This is what I have done. I do not take any of my birds, flighted or not, outside, beyond my screened porch. I have seen more than one of my birds take to the skies. It is a horrible thing to exprience. Thankfully, I have been able to safely recover those birds and bring them back home.

 

I hope you never, EVER watch, helplessly while your bird takes flight into the big blue. I hope you never exprience the sickening feel of watching 5 hawks flying above the very tree tops you last saw your bird fly into. I have. Btw, yes, the bird I speak of was WELL CLIPPED! Nor was he a strong flier. Thank GOD I was able to find him safe and sound. Most of all, Bee didn't become a meal for a hawk. But to say how cruel it is to clip, and berate those of us who do clip for our various reasons, I do feel it harsh and judgemental on your part. It represents a closed mind. I am not saying, one way or the other that it is 100% right OR wrong to clip or not to clip. I have 14 birds. As I stated, some are clipped, some are fully flighted. My reasoning for this is based both on each individual bird, and the safety of each bird.

[daviddogma]

Makena wrote:

And lets be done with this whole "convenience" thing... it is going nowhere...

 

I am sure hours could be spent talking about modern day conveniences... like a cage for example... Lets let it rest.

 

There are other threads for all these things. I am learning a lot. I hadn't even considered blind birds or unclipped birds who can't fly. IMO this is just getting interesting

[Guest briansmum]

itzazu2u, excellent post and that is exactly the point i was trying to make.

 

every bird, every situation, DIFFERENT.

[daviddogma]

For the person who compared ear cropping and tail docking:

 

http://network.bestfriends.org/animallawcoalition/news/4660.html

 

 

If I were a betting person (and I am) I would wager similar bills introduced regarding wing clipping in the future. Maybe it will never get passed, but I could see it introduced....