The African Grey – To Clip or Not to Clip

[daviddogma]

He gets around I have researched this over and over and it is my 100% belief that anyone who clips the wings of a bird just to make life more convenient has no business living with a bird. The CAG is a bird! Clipping the wings of a bird just so you can have a teddy bear with a heart beat seems ridiculous to me. I personally believe it would be the same as breaking a leg (or two legs so he won't run around in a circle) of my 7 year old son. I love seeing him fly around. I haven't taken him outside, but I didn't have him move in with me, share a life with me, just so I could go to the bank and show all the tellers what a cool toy I have. I would never tell anyone what they can and can't do, but you can bet your a$$ I will be secretly judging the cruelty. If I got to vote on this issue to make it a law I would vote against clipping.

[daviddogma]

And to answer the future questions about how would I feel if Otis were to get away? Well, how would I feel if my 7 year old ran out in the street and got hit by a car? Come on...I will make damn sure he doesn't fly away. It is called responsibility. It is called parenting. Believe me, if I thought we would just get away I would have never invested all the time not to mention the extra money this costs. Believe me, it is worth every penny when Otis flys from my arm to the ceiling fan and then back to the perch I have for him next to my imac. I can't imagine having to move him around from place to place because he is a crippled bird. Feel free to flame me on this subject as I was asked my take on the subject. I guess now you all know

[danmcq]

Thanks for your opinion on this subject.

 

Each households environ must be studied carefully and responsibly be each Grey owner to determine which choice would be the safest for the Grey. It should not be based upon an individual wanting a crippled teddy bear, as you so well put.

 

With a young child and I assume young ones coming over to play etc. how so you deal with the never failing of children, in their excite flinging a patio sliding door open coming in or out and then leaving it open for example?

 

Do you just keep your Grey caged while guests are there? Do you educate your guest on your Grey?

 

I would like to hear of how you deal with the situation. :-)

[daviddogma]

My son is very cautious and he understands the rules. Otis lives upstairs in a room across the hall from my office and my son lives downstairs across from my room so Otis would have to fly downstairs out an open door at the bottom of the stairs (which is never be left open) then out another door (which are never to be left open). In fact, I never open the door to any room Otis is in. My son understands Otis is a family member not a toy, and has not introduced him to any of his friends so far. We went over and over and over this before we got him. I work from home so Otis is out of his cage a lot. It hasn't been that long, but so far he has added quite a bit of excitement to our lives.

[daviddogma]

danmcq wrote:

David - Since your new CAG is flighted. What is your experience thus far with it and what is your take on the subject?

 

One last thing, all CAGs are flighted. They are born flighted. Mine is no exception. The birds with the clipped wings are flighted too. They have been purposely crippled for convenience. Justify this anyway you want, argue personal choice, environment, but it is a fact that birds were meant to fly.

[danmcq]

Yes, they were meant to fly.

 

But, since they are also being raised domesticated and 100% reliant upon their owners for mealtime and thus life itself. It is a death sentence, if they fly away and are not found.

 

I just went through that experience and will ensure it never happens again.

 

I could not stand the thought of a creature dying decades before it's time, due to unwise decisions based upon the environment the Parrot lives in.

 

That is a home by home decision that must be made by the responsible person.

 

No one can pass judgement on that.

 

So, it is not crippled for convenience. I would hope it is limited, for life and well-being.

[daviddogma]

I won't argue semantics on this one. I answered the question. Everyone now knows how I feel on the subject. I won't fall for the trap of being asked a question(s) only to have the person asking the question(s) comment on the answer if he or she doesn't like the result again. Thanks for the questions. I am sure you will have the last word so please try and be nice

[danmcq]

LOL David - I am not trying to Trap you. Everyone here knows I am not of that nature. I know you don't though :-)

 

My Comments, even if it's an answer to a question, are open for comment too.

 

This is a very touchy subject, I know. In fact, I have yet to make my mind up on Clipping one way or another, for my situation.

 

I feel VERY strongly, that, if at all possible, all birds should remain unclipped. In fact, I wanted Dayo to come home from the Breeders unclipped, but they refused, based on their bias.

 

The good news is, the clip was very slight and Dayo flies fairly well. :-)

 

I would love to fly Dayo on an Aviator Harness with plenty of line, once he is well trained.

 

So, lower your guard, I just like to tease and joke with people, not battle. :-)

 

Thanks for all your great posts and information.

[Dave007]

<br><br>Post edited by: MrSpock, at: 2007/09/16 21:02

[danmcq]

WOW, what beautiful, logical and well founded reasoning Dave (MrSpock).

 

I would like to see this Posted in the Health and Wellness section as a permanent article.

 

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[Talon]

Okay, YES! I would love to see MrSpock write his article in the Health Section as well. It was beautifully articulated, and makes perfect sense by my way of thinking.

 

David,

I totally agree with what you have written regarding NOT clipping a bird's wings. I have always felt the same way. We have a very busy household with 4 kids (at the time of getting Talon, 2 years ago) ages 6-16. My children have always been taught the importance of closing doors for her safety. Talon is out of her cage for the entire time most days. I too, work from home for the most part. I am the DOOR police, and I always yell and remind them to make sure the door is closed when they leave or come in.

We also have 2 offices in our home, and people are in and out all day long, 6 days a week. I always say, "close the door" when someone enters, or I make sure it is closed. We have storm/screen doors on all 3 of our doors, so it's easier that way.

Most birds are frightened by the outdoors, and are not apt to try and dash outside as soon as someone enters. When my kids have friends over, the same thing goes, my kids know that they need to make sure the doors stays closed. Talon is never left unattended, I keep a very close watch on her.

It really isn't that hard to ensure that your bird doesn't "escape", they can still fly even when their wings are clipped. After all, they want to be with you, not away from you.

 

I think people who clip their birds wings, don't really understand, that a bird who has not been clipped, doesn't just FLY all over the place at will. It has been my experience that they prefer to be picked up and carried from one place to another.

 

So there you have another opinion!

[dblhelix]

Very well put by Mr. Spock I agree 100%. Birds are meant to fly. Shame on us if we take away that amazing gift.

[loviechick]

Interesting arguments, it's a good thing we're all entitled to our opinions!<br><br>Post edited by: loviechick, at: 2007/09/08 00:57

[DayosMom]

Monique,

 

This was very interesting to read. As you know, we have personally been debating this topic since our ordeal with Jake, our Conjure.

 

My personal feeling is, if we keep our birds flighted, then we need to make sure the surroundings are as safe as possible. No boiling pots, or ceiling fans while the bird is out. Part of being a pet owner is in fact, creating a safe and healthy environment for the pet, whatever it may be.

 

Dan & I take being a Grey owner very seriously, and want him to feel safe. We don't want him getting hurt every time he comes out of his cage. I lean more toward flighted birds after our Jake got out and couldn't come down out of the tree, even though he wanted to. I felt very sad for Jake, because he wanted to come home so badly, but couldn't get there from where he was. He just kept going up, and up. UGH!

 

I will let Dan make the final decision on this, but I can see both sides of this topic. It's whatever one feels is best for their bird, in their environment.

 

I appreciate this information very much. You put a lot of thought in this so as to share BOTH sides of the spectrum. Very well put together.

Kim

[daviddogma]

loviechick wrote:

Interesting arguments, it's a good thing we're all entitled to our opinions!<br><br>Post edited by: loviechick, at: 2007/09/08 00:57

 

 

As of now yes, it is still legal to abuse your pet bird by clipping the wings although it may one day not be. But, I would still have the right to my opinion. It wasn't that long ago when I could fight my pet rooster until it dies...wait, I can in New Mexico and Lousiana if I want to. But then again, even if I couldn't I would still have the right to think I could. Hell, I have the right to think I can molest my child. The right to be a racist. As one can see, this logic leads down some interesting roads....

[daviddogma]

Notice I only attacked the premise not any argument. I am not claiming one should or shouldn't have a right to an opinion, just what happens when one accepts "the right to an opinion" premise. I have noticed many arguments moving from the premise that each environment is different therefore different measures are needed in each of these settings. None of this takes away from the premise that flight is essential to the makeup of a bird. If someone who has a clipped bird would like to attack that premise I would be interested. I would love to hear an argument resulting from a premise that wings and feathers and the ability to fly are not critical to a bird. Please, let's keep these arguments logical, pretty please?

[danmcq]

Yes - We have the right to "Think" .......for now ;-)

[daviddogma]

Still no argument on this subject? So...let me get this straight...one gets the wings to his or her bird clipped, and isn't sure if the clipping isn't critical to a bird being a bird? Say it ain't so....

[loviechick]

I think it's rather short sighted to call it abuse, some animals tails are docked and ears are cropped just for SHOW not even for protection, so I think the argument is weak sauce in my opinion. I also find it funny that both of my Greys were rescued from dire situations where they were abused, malnourished, one with a raging yeast infection, the other with a terrible bacterial infection, but yet I'M cruel for clipping wings, how selfish of me...Then again ignorance is bliss.... I suppose it's fruitless to waste time debating a topic in which one of the two parties involved is completely close minded, and more or less making someone feel AWFUL for a decision they have made(not me I am perfectly fine with the CRUELTY AND ABUSE you have so dubbed me responsible of, I'm implying others)

 

I'm stopping here before I get booted :laugh:<br><br>Post edited by: loviechick, at: 2007/09/14 22:01

[danmcq]

Is being kept in a Cage or in a House and being Domesticated to a point of non-survival if freed or escaped, critical to a bird being a bird?

 

Perhaps the act of Humans just taking birds from the wild open airways and flocks is also a critical arguement we may need to explore.

 

I don't think anyone here wants to "Argue" clip or no-clip.

 

The main concern of each bird owner is the safety of the bird and the environment it is in. If the owner did not take safety into account, what an abusive owner that would be!

 

Rather than trying to commence heated debates. Why not contribute by sharing experiences and helping other forum members?

 

This is my last post on this topic if it is going to maintain an argumentative flavor.

[Makena]

Makena's wings are clipped... and let me tell you why. Makena is a "domesticated" bird in OUR care. Our current home is a very dangerous place for a bird to be flying around in. I am a food scientist and currently work from home... I have a lot of equipment out that would be very harmful to the bird if he was to land on it. Also some of the equipment I have is worth thousands of dollars (and isn't mine) and if it was to get chewed or damaged in any way, I would be responsible. I am constantly working in the kitchen, which means kitchen appliances are on all the time including the stove.

 

Our condo has a loft, our loft is our living room. This living room is where we spend a lot of our time and feel Makena should get to spend time up there with us. The loft is located directly over the kitchen which has a tile floor. Also directly below the loft is a ceiling fan and since we live in Hawaii tends to be on quite often. Another problem are the massive windows that we have on either side of our condo, which at this point we have not been able to find any window treatments that will fit them.

 

After Makena learned to fly he gave us our first scare. He narrowly missed the opening in the loft that is directly located over the kitchen. After that we spent a lot of time discussing the option of clipping his wings. We decided that for his safety we would clip him for the time being.

 

I have recently rented an office that I am going to be moving all of my equipment into. We are also in the process of looking for window treatments as well as trying to figure out a way to secure the openings in the loft area. The fans are going to be disabled.

 

We take a little time every day to teach Makena to use the harness and he is finally to the point where he is ok with it. We take him outside all the time and let him practice his flying from one of us to the other. While he doesn't have any lift, he is still able to fly from one to the other if we are close enough. We think it is important for him to exercise his muscles, especially as a baby. While we work to secure dangerous areas in our home we are letting his wings grow back out.

 

Here is a picture of our condo to show you the dangers...

 

So there is our reasoning... Not that I should need to justify myself. As parents of this sweet bird we made a tough decision for his safety and don't regret it one bit !

[Makena]

Well said Dan!!! I chose not to post my feelings until now because I was scared of being criticized and bashed. I am sure there are a lot of people out there who don't speak up because of this reason. Bottom line is everyone has the right to make their own decision... This shouldn't be an argument...

[loviechick]

I agree Dan a little too hot for me.....thanks for your input dan and Makena!

[daviddogma]

Makena wrote:

Bottom line is everyone has the right to make their own decision... This shouldn't be an argument...

 

 

How is that the bottom line? I keep reading this kind of logic over and over in this forum and what premise are you using to make this conclusion? Is it the "everyone knows" premise? To simply conclude everyone has the right to make their own decision is faulty logic. This is a forum, right? This is the place for debate, right? How can there be information and exchanging of ideas without debate?

[daviddogma]

danmcq wrote:

Is being kept in a Cage or in a House and being Domesticated to a point of non-survival if freed or escaped, critical to a bird being a bird?

 

Perhaps the act of Humans just taking birds from the wild open airways and flocks is also a critical arguement we may need to explore.

 

 

You are certainly welcome to explore these ideas in other threads. I would be interested in tackling each of these topics in a logical fashion. But, the topic of this thread, and I know you know this, is about wing clipping. And, I didn't start the thread either. So, until an admin closes this thread I will continue to pose thse questions