Guest briansmum Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 it would never happen with wing clipping. docking and cropping means cutting a part of the animals body off, the animal can feel it and it causes pain. birds cannot feel their wings being clipped, and it is not permanent, the feathers grow back. ears and tails do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daviddogma Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 xxbeccyxx wrote: it would never happen with wing clipping. docking and cropping means cutting a part of the animals body off, the animal can feel it and it causes pain. birds cannot feel their wings being clipped, and it is not permanent, the feathers grow back. ears and tails do not. Never? Really? There sure seem to be a lot of groups and thoughts regarding this issue. Some do equate it to abuse. http://petitionthem.com/?sect=detail&pet=1410 http://www.manhattanbirdclub.com/wingclipping.htm http://www.parrotparrot.com/articles/aa032799.htm http://www.veganfuture.org/ http://www.parrothouse.com/pamelaclark/featheredcompanion.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daviddogma Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 One last link regarding this issue: http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/luciedove/vpost?id=1089922 Man oh man...I feel ashamed getting Otis from a breeder after reading through that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itzazu2u Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 Oh yeah, let's do just that, jump topics and talk about docking tails and ears. That involves blood and pain. That's so much NOT the same thing as clipping wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 And because Makena is living in a domestic environment is why I choose to clip him. He doesn't understand the concept of a window, or a hot stove, or a ceiling fan, etc. I agree 100 percent and that is why all my birds are clipped its not about convenience but about me loving my birds and wanting them safe as I can make them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalonSis Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 Because everyone is talking about how it is safer to keep a bird's wings clipped than let them fly, because of the dangers houses have, remember this. Even if a birds wings are clipped, they can still fly if they are very scared. Melissa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 So true Talonsis that is why I never recomend even a clipped bird going outside without a harness or in a travel cage. You are one smart cookie.:laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daviddogma Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 Tari wrote: So true Talonsis that is why I never recomend even a clipped bird going outside without a harness or in a travel cage. This would mean your bird could still fly onto a hot stove, ceiling fan, etc. even with a clip which are the reasons you listed for the clipping. These are the things that are confusing to me. If you agree that your bird can still fly why clip to begin with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyGreys Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 A wing trim, when properly performed, should result in a bird that cannot fly, but can glide gracefully to the ground.wing clipping is meant only to eliminate the possibility of upward flight, and that their birds may still retain some ability to fly horizontally, and may even gain lift in the wind. The main purpose of wing clipping is to prevent upward flight in a bird and not to render a bird flightless. A properly clipped psittacine should glide gracefully to the ground and have enough feathers to break its fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeasarsDad Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 You see, when you talk about how cruel it is to clip a birds wings and you talk about how the bird is "traumatized" you are only looking at a tiny part of the situation.. Because you are forgetting about the other side of the equation.. Everything in life is a trade off.. If you think otherwise you are walking around with blinders on.. A clipped bird living among the planets most intelligent life form, humans, is 1000 times better off clipped then it's brothers and sisters living a flighted life in the wild.. Imagine for a second that you were taken by aliens one night.. Imagine that these aliens removed your thumbs on each hand... No reason.. They just did it.. Horrible you might say for the human.. What a trauma.. But then you realize that these aliens mean you no further harm at all.. In fact, over the rest of your life they tell you secrets of the universe that you only dreamed about. Some are so fantastic you never thought of them at all. They share things with you that is so mind blowing you are in awe. They show you things you never imagined was possible. Secrets and things only found in the best science fiction novels. So, you lost your thumbs, yes.. But what did you gain instead? Not only that.. but you soon found out that you didn't need those thumbs anymore anyway. This is the same thing that happens with the clipped bird.. At first it seems horrible to clip them.. and the bird suffers.. but in the big picture this bird is allowed to live with a life form that is so much more advanced that the bird is way better off then it's wild cousins. The dabate about clipping is moot.. Because you negate all the other benefits living with Humans brings that bird and only judge that birds well being on one thing.. Whether or not its' wings were clipped.. this is short sided at best.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daviddogma Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 CeasarsDad wrote: A clipped bird living among the planets most intelligent life form, humans, is 1000 times better off clipped then it's brothers and sisters living a flighted life in the wild.. This is the same thing that happens with the clipped bird.. At first it seems horrible to clip them.. and the bird suffers.. but in the big picture this bird is allowed to live with a life form that is so much more advanced that the bird is way better off then it's wild cousins. The dabate about clipping is moot.. Because you negate all the other benefits living with Humans brings that bird and only judge that birds well being on one thing.. Whether or not its' wings were clipped.. this is short sided at best.. 1. How did you arrive at the data of 1000 times? 2. I guess it is all about how you define what is and isn't "better off" to a bird. 3. How is this short sided? Can we not take things one at a time? If two birds were in identical situations (notice I wrote, "If"....this is not a chance to say no two birds are ever in two identical situations, can you work with me a little on this, please?) would you agree that clipping or not clipping wings would be better? Has anyone ever had two babies at the same time one clipped and one not clipped and documented the difference? Are there any parrot scientists out there? 4. If the debate is moot than why did you just post regarding it? 5. FYI - “Moot” is a very old word related to “meeting,” specifically a meeting where serious matters are discussed. Oddly enough, a moot point can be a point worth discussing at a meeting (or in court)—an unresolved question—or it can be the opposite: a point already settled and not worth discussing further. At any rate, “mute point” is simply wrong, as is the less common “mood point.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 CeasarsDad wrote: You see, when you talk about how cruel it is to clip a birds wings and you talk about how the bird is "traumatized" you are only looking at a tiny part of the situation.. Because you are forgetting about the other side of the equation.. Everything in life is a trade off.. If you think otherwise you are walking around with blinders on.. A clipped bird living among the planets most intelligent life form, humans, is 1000 times better off clipped then it's brothers and sisters living a flighted life in the wild.. Imagine for a second that you were taken by aliens one night.. Imagine that these aliens removed your thumbs on each hand... No reason.. They just did it.. Horrible you might say for the human.. What a trauma.. But then you realize that these aliens mean you no further harm at all.. In fact, over the rest of your life they tell you secrets of the universe that you only dreamed about. Some are so fantastic you never thought of them at all. They share things with you that is so mind blowing you are in awe. They show you things you never imagined was possible. Secrets and things only found in the best science fiction novels. So, you lost your thumbs, yes.. But what did you gain instead? Not only that.. but you soon found out that you didn't need those thumbs anymore anyway. This is the same thing that happens with the clipped bird.. At first it seems horrible to clip them.. and the bird suffers.. but in the big picture this bird is allowed to live with a life form that is so much more advanced that the bird is way better off then it's wild cousins. The dabate about clipping is moot.. Because you negate all the other benefits living with Humans brings that bird and only judge that birds well being on one thing.. Whether or not its' wings were clipped.. this is short sided at best.. I don't agree with you on this one... Here humans 'taken away by' stands for being kidnapped. No matter how interesting a life is forced upon you afterwards - kidnapping is wrong. Full stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daviddogma Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 CeasarsDad wrote: Imagine for a second that you were taken by aliens one night.. Imagine that these aliens removed your thumbs on each hand... No reason.. They just did it.. Are you drawing a line between clipping wings for no reason on this? I am confused.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeasarsDad Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 FairY wrote: I don't agree with you on this one... Here humans 'taken away by' stands for being kidnapped. No matter how interesting a life is forced upon you afterwards - kidnapping is wrong. Full stop. OK fine.. Your parents were kidnapped by Aliens and you were born into it.. Hows that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeasarsDad Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 daviddogma wrote: 1. How did you arrive at the data of 1000 times? Thats an easy one.. I was gonna say 100 times but thought I would be more dramatic.. How's that? 2. I guess it is all about how you define what is and isn't "better off" to a bird. Living with a loving family of people trumps living wild and always worrying about where the next meal is coming from or when you will have to die in the jaws of a snake.. Again, the argument has no real answer because you don't know what the bird is thinking.. 3. How is this short sided? Can we not take things one at a time? If two birds were in identical situations (notice I wrote, "If"....this is not a chance to say no two birds are ever in two identical situations, can you work with me a little on this, please?) would you agree that clipping or not clipping wings would be better? Has anyone ever had two babies at the same time one clipped and one not clipped and documented the difference? Are there any parrot scientists out there? What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter.. The birds life is so enriched by living with the planets highest life form you must consider this.. Imagine 2 glasses of water.. One is 12 inches high and the other is 6 inches high.. Both are filled to the rim.. Which is more forfilled? So a flighted bird might be better.. Yes, but the clipped bird also is forfilled in ways he could have never achieved in the wild.. 4. If the debate is moot than why did you just post regarding it? I wanted to remind you of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeasarsDad Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 daviddogma wrote: CeasarsDad wrote:Imagine for a second that you were taken by aliens one night.. Imagine that these aliens removed your thumbs on each hand... No reason.. They just did it.. Are you drawing a line between clipping wings for no reason on this? I am confused.... Not sure why you are confused except to say you think like a machine and I do not.. You are digital and I am analog.. You have a "matter of fact" approach to things and I don't.. You see Black and White and I see a million shades of Grey... Don't get me wrong on this.. I'm not saying you are wrong in your processes.. I'm only saying that we have completely different ways of looking at things.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevjoe Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 CD your advice is well layed out, but my problom is when someone will force their view over all members. This forum is a great place to be, and friendships and knowledge is what makes it that. You show you point of view and respect the other ones view, not ram yours on anyone else is. It seem we are getting away from this on two subjucts, this one and Alex. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeasarsDad Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 Hi Joe.. It's just that some people are very passionate in how they think.. It's not a bad thing.. It's just that most often people that think like "machines" have ZERO people skills.. There are certain personality types in people.. Clearly I am the exact opposite of David.. BUT.. that fact doesn't make me more valid then him.. It doesn't make me right and him wrong or the other way around.. Remember This. 1 You agree with a poster.. All's well 2 You don't agree.. The poster will never convince you and you will never convince the poster. Best to say your piece and move on.. Constant debate leads no where.. Especially when the poster likes to debate just for debate itself.. Debate becomes a game to win. At all costs.. 3 You are undecided about how you feel.. One thing I know Joe.. It's fun to debate.. but the problem starts when people on both sides forget that we are friends and family here.. Sometimes, even if you are WINNING a debate.. YOU LOSE... You lose because you don't have the people skills to "sell" your concept to someone.. Hence your point and feeling that "someone is forcing their viewpoints on you" I see a lack of sales ability from that poster there.. :P Post edited by: CeasarsDad, at: 2007/09/16 14:53<br><br>Post edited by: CeasarsDad, at: 2007/09/16 15:29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevjoe Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 CD Pleas don't take kindness for weakness on by behalf. I have my views about alot of things, but Impose them on no one with the degree that has been going on with said such people. Being from Brooklyn myself I can see thing at street level. I know when someone is using their mussel to prove a point. I don't back down to anyone if need be, but I also RESPECT other peoples view. This is not lack of sales ability on my part, but I really don't care about myself because it was reading other members view and PM I have gotton about it. My feeling about the subject was written early, but I didn't impose it on anyone. To me it's only your own choice, because like raising kids. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeasarsDad Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 Joe.. No.. I wasn't saying that you had the lack of sales.. It was the other poster.. Sorry if you mistook my meaning here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daviddogma Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 CeasarsDad wrote: daviddogma wrote: CeasarsDad wrote:Imagine for a second that you were taken by aliens one night.. Imagine that these aliens removed your thumbs on each hand... No reason.. They just did it.. Are you drawing a line between clipping wings for no reason on this? I am confused.... Not sure why you are confused except to say you think like a machine and I do not.. You are digital and I am analog.. You have a "matter of fact" approach to things and I don't.. You see Black and White and I see a million shades of Grey... Don't get me wrong on this.. I'm not saying you are wrong in your processes.. I'm only saying that we have completely different ways of looking at things.. I take the thinking as a machine as a huge compliment. Machines are for the most part pretty consistent. I was confused because in your analogy you said that the aliens removed the thumbs for no reason, and I don't understand why. If they removed the thumbs for no reason why wouldn't they eat me for no reason? It also seems to me (please correct me if I am incorrect as I am making as assumption) that if you are comparing the aliens removing thumbs for no reason to clipping wings. It stands to reason that there is no reason to clip wings.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daviddogma Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 CeasarsDad wrote: I see a lack of sales ability from that poster there.. :P Post edited by: CeasarsDad, at: 2007/09/16 14:53<br><br>Post edited by: CeasarsDad, at: 2007/09/16 15:29 What does "sales" ability have to do with logic and reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeasarsDad Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 You wouldn't understand.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeasarsDad Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 daviddogma wrote: I take the thinking as a machine as a huge compliment. Machines are for the most part pretty consistent. See... Can I read people or what... There's lots of other stuff I can tell you about yourself too.. but since this is a Bird forum I won't go there.. You see in my business I deal with machines all day long.. I know the type.. Please don't take this as me being disrespectful of you or your opinions as this is not my purpose.. You must realize that there are points others make that are equally as valid as yours are.. Your constant badgering for scientific proof all the time is growing old.. How bout people clip wings because they want to control the bird.. Is that enough for you? And who really cares otherwise.... If you have a problem with the "control" reason for clipping you should visit all the DOG forums where people put electric collars on their animals for the same Control.. Or how about walking a dog.. Aren't dogs born to run in a pack? So keeping one on a lease is cruel isn't? .. It prevents the dog from being what it was born to be.. Same point.. I could cite many more examples of you want.. but the point here is it really doesn't matter what anyone says.. Because you have DOGMA in you name.. We know what that means to begin with.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number6 Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Gina's wings will not be clipped. Her previous owner had them clipped for her own reasons, I didn't question why, that's her belief. So when they grow out, they'll stay that way. In my house, Gina is welcome to go where ever she wants to, I can try to keep her out of certain places, [behind computers (she doesn't chew wires), leather couches, etc.] but if she wants to go somewhere, she will... whether or not I like it, regardless of her flying ability. She's a remarkable climber and can get pretty much anywhere in the house. I've done and continue to do what I can to remove dangers, but you will NEVER get them all. The best you can do is teach, watch, and teach some more, eventually, they'll learn that they shouldn't do something and will stop. For those that say it's dangerous: 1. Windows: Most of my windows have blinds covering them, I live in an apartment complex, so I'd rather not have my neighbors able to see what I have to steal. Gina doesn't go messing with these. I do have a window set up just for her, blinds open and a perch mounted in it. She used to climb up it and try to perch on the window where the lock was, so I put up a perch for her. The window is lattice grid, so she would know better than to fly through it. 2. Kitchen: With the orientation of my house, Gina would have to make a very sharp U-turn to get to a hot pan on the stove. She's learned that anywhere in the kitchen is off limits unless carried in there, mostly because she wants to watch and gets underfoot. She will stand at the door to the kitchen and watch what's going on if she's not on my shoulder. 3. Open doors: I have a screen door that automatically closes. With the orientation of the doors, her cage, and her favorite perching spot (she loves that damn window), and the way the door opens, flight out the door when someone was entering/leaving would be very difficult especially with someone in it. Guests know about the bird and know not to open the door much anyway. 4. Guests: They know the drill, if they can't get it right, they leave... enough said. She is well supervised while she's on her little expeditions and all day, simply because everyone's interested in what she's doing. ---Cliffnotes--- I believe in not clipping birds. **Special needs birds not included- includes blind, self mutilating, or otherwise** EDIT- This is just my take on the issue. Much like religion, trying to force someone to believe something would be detrimental to my health. EDIT 2- In my honest opinion, there does not need to be 2 topics at the same time regarding this.<br><br>Post edited by: Number6, at: 2007/09/17 00:13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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