Are we being fair?

[Joolesgreyuk]

I'm posting this in the grey room but it really concerns parrots in general, the bigger the parrot the more relevent I think.

 

I know we all love our fids and give them the very best we can but I often have a niggling feeling "is it right to have these hugely intelligent birds in our homes?" This thought often springs to mind when visiting parrot conservation sites or reading about rescue cases. I guess some owners will respond by saying "but they were bred and hand reared in captivity and couldn't survive in the wild" true but if there were no demand no one would breed them in the first place would they? It seems to me that a parrot's intelligence and beauty are the two main reasons for us wanting them to grace our homes which makes them their own worse enemy doesn't it. Macaws in particular are huge and so beautiful that it seems positively cruel to deny them their right to fly free in the rainforests, although they do seem to enjoy interacting with humans.

 

Thoughts?

[Jayd]

If damage is done then it' done already, all we can do is not cry or worry over what has been done, but to make the best of what we've caused. Our companions have never known their roots, but sometimes, I fell they feel a longings for something they can't quite touch...We must replace this need with our love and caring.

Jayd

[judygram]

If damage is done then it' done already, all we can do is not cry or worry over what has been done, but to make the best of what we've caused. Our companions have never known their roots, but sometimes, I fell they feel a longings for something they can't quite touch...We must replace this need with our love and caring.

Jayd

 

That was well said Jay and that is it in a nutshell.

[Talon]

Ditto to Jayd & Judy. I too, have that mother's instinct, and sometimes feel they long for something unkown. The best that we can do is to LOVE them, CARE for them, Give them as much as a happy life by cherishing them and including them in our lives and family. They deserve no less, but feeling badly or guilty for something that is out of our immediate control regarding our babies does nothing to help the quality of their lives in captivity.

Interesting thread, Thanks for starting it.

 

Karma +1

[Luvparrots]

All we can do in take the best care of the birds we have. I also believe that if we have the room in our homes and it is in our hearts and if we have the finances, to re-home and rescue all the needy parrots and other fids that we can.

Edited April 22, 2010 by luvparrots

[esknomoe]

As I have mentioned before, I adopted Brutus from a previous owner 7 weeks ago. He is 12 years old, supposedly, and the previous owners had him for 11 years. I don't know where they got him. This is all I know of his history. I'd love to know more. I'm curious as to whether he was bred and hatched in captivity, or he was captured in the wild. I'm curious about this for two reasons. The first is that a huge number of birds, about a quarter million, were imported from Africa between about 1995 and 2003. Brutus would fit this age group. Also, Brutus doesn't have a leg band.

I'd love to know if Brutus ever knew the wild.

[crossfit]

I understand what your saying. I was in the Amazon jungle in February. Before leaving, one of the forum members said that I should tell you all about it. I haven't yet. Mostly because it was so life changing that I can't yet put it into words. We saw a lot of parrots. They were beautiful and amazing in the wild. We saw a lot of festive parrots and quite a few macaws.

 

I think that by having our Greys, at least in the United States where importing wild caught is illegal, we can actually help in some ways. I am hoping when Hawkins is older to take him to the local schools with me along with my video and pictures and talk about the rainforests and how important they are to us. The Congo region is in dire need. It takes a huge amount of work to help them there as the people doing the damage are usually poor who really have no choice but to cut the forests or capture animals in order to feed their families. The only way to save our Greys and the other parrots will be major systemic change throughout the world. We can each do our part.

 

In the meantime, I can make Hawkins life as awesome as possible. We start a unit on Ancient Greek philosophers next week. I expect him to read the writers in ancient Greek as well. After all, he is a very smart bird! (giggle)

[JillyBeanz]

I too, like Crossfit, have seen an array of parrots in the wild in a few different countries - but they have to forrage for their food, they have to fight for survival - Harvey doesn't. I am of the belief, as you quote, that they were hand reared and wouldn't survive in the wild, and neither would most of the animals we call "pets".

 

Humans have had "pets" for zillions of years and there are more and more animals becoming "trendy" that perhaps shouldn't be destined for our homes, but I can only offer the full care, love and attention needed to ensure that Harvey develops mentally and physically as near to the "wild" circumstances as possible.

[she]

I totally agree that our birds could not survive in the wild,Having contact with Blue who is a wild caught parrot I can see a marked contrast between him and Charlie who was I was told hand reared. Blue is far less fazed by what happens around him and seems to just get on with life. Charlie seems to be much less settled and easily upset. I think this has a lot to do with hand rearing, they never learn to be a propper parrot. It could be age aswell as Blue is a very old man now but I believe being parent reared is best for any bird. I agree with Julie that it is so sad that our birds dont have the freedom and space and experiances wild birds have and especially the larger birds such as macaws can have a very small life in captivity.

[Jayd]

In their natural habitat, Grey's aren't neurotic, they don't bite, yet their largest concern is man. Be it the destruction of their natural habitat, ecosystem and capture, or being caged, well fed and cared for, what's done is done...My concern now, is "Designer Parrots", Hybrid's...

Jayd

[Elvenking]

This feeling of taking something away from a domesticated animal seems to be the stongest among the subject of birds. Also, it can be a factor that comes into deciding whether to clip their wings or not as well. I can only tell you how I wrap my head around this.

 

Firstly, as people, we are able to manifest an understanding of feelings in a way that we put our birds in shoes that are far to large for them to fill. What I mean is that it is highly unlikely that our little friends spend their time with us in wonder of what lies beyond or what might be missing. Given that if they were born in human captivity, this is all they know. Regardless of whether we are referring to birds in the wild or home with us, there are ups and downs to both situations, and in the end, it really makes no difference to the bird. Just as there are those of us who live in huge mansions, and those of us that live in smaller, less lavish lifestyles, somehow we all have our ups and downs, there is no all-positive situation that can be had.

 

That said, you can only hold yourself to the responsability within your grasp at this point...being a bird owner that is. Lots of toys, treats, talking, and playing..and everything you can do to involve your bird is great. Heck, these Greys probably feel like kings among people. When I watch a video of a Grey babbling away, playing, or cleverly taunting their owners with tricks and games....I can hardly think that they feel like they are missing something.

 

That's my 2 cents, if it makes sense.

 

[ecodweeb]

I take the viewpoint of man is going to destroy them, and I'm doing my part to perserve them. One day my fids may be the ones who help revive their species.

 

Just call me Noah.

[Talon]

This feeling of taking something away from a domesticated animal seems to be the stongest among the subject of birds. Also, it can be a factor that comes into deciding whether to clip their wings or not as well. I can only tell you how I wrap my head around this.

 

Firstly, as people, we are able to manifest an understanding of feelings in a way that we put our birds in shoes that are far to large for them to fill. What I mean is that it is highly unlikely that our little friends spend their time with us in wonder of what lies beyond or what might be missing. Given that if they were born in human captivity, this is all they know. Regardless of whether we are referring to birds in the wild or home with us, there are ups and downs to both situations, and in the end, it really makes no difference to the bird. Just as there are those of us who live in huge mansions, and those of us that live in smaller, less lavish lifestyles, somehow we all have our ups and downs, there is no all-positive situation that can be had.

 

That said, you can only hold yourself to the responsability within your grasp at this point...being a bird owner that is. Lots of toys, treats, talking, and playing..and everything you can do to involve your bird is great. Heck, these Greys probably feel like kings among people. When I watch a video of a Grey babbling away, playing, or cleverly taunting their owners with tricks and games....I can hardly think that they feel like they are missing something.

 

That's my 2 cents, if it makes sense.

 

VERY NICELY PUT!!! Karma +1 for you!

[danmcq]

I agree with all the thoughts here.

 

I think it is noble of all, who have the heartfelt desire to give their captive bird a wild existence. IT means that each appreciates deeply what they have, yet "Wishes" their bird could have been wild born and had the life nature intended.

 

We can only do whats best for them now, that means letting them be flighted, feel like a part of the flock and allowed as much freedom as possible to explore and interact in our homes. They will never get over that "Feeling" that "Something" is missing, but they aren't sure what....

 

GreYt thread!

[Jayd]

It's Grey't that we have a Forum where we can voice our opinions. To start with, Parrots are not "Domesticated", it will be another 200,000, years before this happens.They are just as wild as a Lion or Tiger, but with a better disposition. Even though "captive ", captive being underlined, they still hold strong hereditary instincts, one simply example: There's a sound or whistle they will make, a contact call, you've all heard it from your birds, and on videos of other Grey's, they also make this sound in the wild, This is "Grey Talk". My bird has never met your bird nor with out my knowing has Spock been to the Congo!!!

Some people on the Forum and Net be leave that Grey's are "Telepathic", are they? There's a lot of animals with a much larger brain capacity that don't have the thinking capability of our Grey's, or the emotions or the desire to please. A Grey thinks before he doe's something, he reason's and chooses what to do accordingly, he's not just another "pet" for us to take care of.

And yes, raising and caring for a number of "Mentally abused" and "Cast out Grey's" they do "remember" and retain strong emotions. A Grey, in the wild, doesn't pluck for emotional reasons! Every one of us see the "wild and natural side" of our Grey's each day, we just don't recognize it, we have nothing to compare it to!. Do our Grey's know their wild side and what their missing? Yes, but not as we understand it.

In private conversation, I call my bird's Mr.Spock and Mr.Joey, they've lived far longer then I.....

Jayd

Edited April 22, 2010 by Jayd

[Elvenking]

To start with, Parrots are not "Domesticated", it will be another 200,000, years before this happens.

 

Maybe I chose the wrong word there. And oh I definitely see the wild side come out of Issac sometimes.

[kittykittykitty]

I saw the parrots on the Amazon, also. I've seen various wild flocks here in California. I think Sammy was probably wild caughtt since his human family had lived in Africa (I don't remember which country). Having Precious has been an experience I will always cherish. I am certain this has made me what I am: eco concious. I do what I can to protect and conserve both the animals that have come to me and all others, domestic and wild. This is part of what dictates my life syle.

[esknomoe]

I can only relate my short experience with parrots as compared to dogs; with which I am much more familiar. All modern dogs have evolved over hundreds of generations as creations of human need. Whether it be for hunting, guarding, fighting, dragging fishing nets around, tracking, or simply sitting in the laps of royalty to be constantly stroked and groomed, all dogs are far removed from their wild ancestors. In return for their service to man, their every need is seen to. My Cavalier King Charles wouldn't last 5 minutes in the wild. Probably my Labs wouldn't last much longer.

Parrots aren't like that. They are pure. They haven't been bred, and cross bred, to suit human need. They breed, and are bred, just to be parrots. They entertain us, and provide companionship, and that's all we ask of them. In return, we work (and work, and work, and work some more) to make their captive lives as pleasant, emotionally, and physically healthy as possible. It's give and take. They pay us, and we pay them. All we can do is make it as equal as possible.

As for wing clipping specifically, I think it depends on our own situations. My 3 birds all have clipped wings. I doubt any of them, even the Grey, spend much time thinking "Gee...I wish that idiot hadn't clipped my wings." I have 5 dogs. My back door is opened and closed a hundred times a day. I live in Florida and have several ceiling fans in my house, which pretty much run all the time. All in all, for my peace of mind, and my birds' safety, I feel better about having their wings clipped.

[Xtreme575]

I've struggled with this question myself... I agree that what is done is done, but that isn't enough for me. I am able to reconcile my decision better by thinking that I'm certain my parrot is better off with me than he would be in many other homes. From what I've observed on this forum, this is the case with vast majority of members.

[Jayd]

Our home is filled with birds, all fly except the ones that had there wings clipped before we got them. It's sad to watch a Grey watch other birds fly and play when they can't, because there clipped and never learned to fly. Then before their ready they try, and usually end up hurting themselves, some never learning, others like our Joey has learned forward flight, only to end up crashing at the end. They watch, they know what their missing, and it brings tears to my eye's to see them so sad they call to be picked up, they chew their nails in worry, and when you do pick them up, they grip your finger and flap, going nowhere. What do you do, like so many others here, you shut the doors, turn off the ceiling fans, then the birds are safe, and you know their happy from being complete, and your happy for giving them their wings back, Yes, a Grey knows...

Jayd

Edited April 23, 2010 by Jayd

[Elvenking]

Jay...don't do that...you make me cry.

[ecodweeb]

Our home is filled with birds, all fly except the ones that had there wings clipped before we got them. It's sad to watch a Grey watch other birds fly and play when they can't, because there clipped and never learned to fly. Then before their ready they try, and usually end up hurting themselves, some never learning, others like our Joey has learned forward flight, only to end up crashing at the end. They watch, they know what their missing, and it brings tears to my eye's to see them so sad they call to be picked up, they chew their nails in worry, and when you do pick them up, they grip your finger and flap, going nowhere. What do you do, like so many others here, you shut the doors, turn off the ceiling fans, then the birds are safe, and you know their happy from being complete, and your happy for giving them their wings back, Yes, a Grey knows...

Jayd

 

Talula does this. She so wants to fly, but she also is keeps pulling the feathers. It's a very sad cycle. Phoenix was just starting to fly again when he departed my life. It's very sad, working with clipped birds is like working with someone in a wheel chair to a degree. They are limited in their mobility but that can be worked around, but they are still just as witty and intelligent.

[Brittany]

Yea..sometimes I feel sad and bad for having a bird because he doesn't get to go out and fly around like the other birds. Pepper loves to sit at the window and watch the birds outside. It sucks, but they are so humanized now that it is not possible to survive in the wild. We give Pepper the best life that we can [which I think is pretty good] but I feel guilty sometimes that he has to live in a house.

[Janfromboone]

I really prefer to think like Elvenking and Jillybeans. For my own comfort I guess. I hope Tobie has no yearning for this unknown existance that he has missed out on. Each one of us has a life that is a result of the decisions we have made. There are hundreds of possibilities of different kinds of lives that we might have lived had our decisions been different. It doesn't make any difference that we were the ones who made the decisions if our lives turned out less than ideal. The point is that a childless couple will never know what it is to love and hold their child but will have other experiences in the absense of parenthood. A person working in a profession that provides for their needs but doesn't make them rich...etc. Life is never perfect, but we do what we can to adapt and take pleasure where we find it. The same goes for our birds. We do everything we can to make it a good life and though it's not perfect, it is their life. I think our birds express their joy of life every day.

[Keywe]

We bought Keywe in a petstore about 5 years ago.. not knowing much of anything about greys at the time.. After MUCH self-education about AGs, I would have definitely rescued one. I had no idea that there were so many birds that need homes...That said, I feel that since she was born and raised in a store, and then we've had her since 3 months, we are all she knows...her life, home, everything is based on what we've done for her. She is totally happy, and yes, I wonder if she's looking at the other birds and wishing she could do what they are doing. I'm sure there's an instinct in her, but the life we've made for her is all she knows, so we try to make the best of it. I feel for all the other abandoned and mistreated ones that are isolated....If we were rich we'd start up our own rescue and take any bird that is in need. It's really hard to see what the world does and how cruel the human race is...we can only give our babies the best life possible and can't worry about what we can't control.