the important secret

[timotian]

when a flock roosts,the height at which a parrot sits is directly corrected to that individuals rank in the flock.the higher the bird,the higher the bird rank.height is equated with safety.

when a human places a parrot above eye level,the human is telling the parrot nonverbally the the bird outranks the human.

extremely common situations that place a bird too high:

a)cage top playgrounds

b)high perches

c)the owners shoulder,which is especially dangerous,not just because of the superior attitude and therefore dominance of the bird.

d)extremely vulnerable parts of the owners anatomy are subject to severe damage from the parrots beak.this type of injury will also permanently damage the parrot-human bond.

simply placing the parrot no higher than chest level to the owner will automatically increase the owners rank in the flock.

the bird can be lowered in a variety of ways:

a)lower the cage.

b)lower the perches within the cage.

c)do not allow the parrot access to the top of its cage.

d)remove the highest perches from tall climbing "trees".

e)if the bird cannot be lowered,raise the people-place a footstool or small ladder next to the cage,thereby raising smaller humans to a position of higher rank.

 

reference:http://www.persianpet.org by timotian (dr.moghadam)

Edited April 15, 2010 by timotian

[Joolesgreyuk]

I've not heard this before but it makes perfect sense. Thanks for posting this Timotian.

[Jane08]

This is really a myth about dominance that us humans have made up to label something. Humans are very domineering and we have taken this and interpreted it on to our birds. There is no struggle for rank and height has nothing to do with it. This myth has grown with no scientific research to back it up.

 

The research that has been done has shown that there is no alpha parrots or hierarchies in the parrot world.

 

There is no need to lower anything and having your bird on your shoulder is a personal thing, not a dominance issue. Yes you have to be careful when they are on your shoulder but this has nothing to do with rank.

 

With Rangi and Kea I make their tree perches as high as I can, they love sitting up there looking out over everything. Their cage is a lot taller than me and I never have problems with them and height. It's how you train them and teach them that is the key.

 

Here is some of the scientific research wich shows it is a myth:

 

May, Diana, Graduate student, University of Arizona, African Gray research in Africa

 

Brice, Ann, Ph.D., University of California, Davis, Yellow-naped Amazon parrot research in Guatemala<br><br>Post edited by: Jane08, at: 2010/03/22 21:02

[JillyBeanz]

I read all that when I was getting ready for Harvey to come home - and tried the old "don't let him higher than you" routine. It doesn't make a bit of difference! He can be on top of a door, on top of his cage or quite differently sitting on the arm of the chair. If he doesn't want to budge, he doesn't budge - high low, or anywhere the wind blows - nothing to do with dominance, just sheer bloody minded!

 

It would be very difficult to lower everything in the house - Harvey is flighted and my doors are definitely taller than me!

[Joolesgreyuk]

Could be the reason for Harvey's biting Jill, have you thought about that?

 

I never have a problem with doors, I keep them closed.

[JillyBeanz]

No, this isn't the reason - he bites when he doesn't want to move! He bites from the arm of the chair, his tree, the floor! If he gets the slightest inkling that he's going back to his cage he decides he isn't moving!

 

He is sitting on top of the door behind me now, preening away. I've just taken him back to his stand for a pooh - no problem - I'm in my jim jams - he knows I'll not go out dressed like this - so he's safe!!! :laugh:

[crossfit]

There is no research backing up this dominance hypothesis. What seems to be more likely is that the need to be high up is do to being a prey animal that escapes by flight and by being out of reach. The birds at the tops of the trees seem to be sentries or look outs for watching while the Grey's on the ground are eating. There is very little out there about the natural behaviour in the wild for African Greys but none of what I have found seems to imply a dominant flock leader. This is even less true for New World parrots that live in multispecies flocks. Just how would they all decide which bird of which species gets to be leader?

 

This is a common myth about parrots that springs from our own behaviour and our knowledge of dog behaviour. We are agressive animals. Reading into the parrots desire for height as being one of dominance is seeing ourselves in their behaviour, not truly observing how and why they go to the trees in their natural environment.

 

In addition to the doctoral work mentioned about about parrots in the wild, you can learn more at these sites as well.

 

http://www.rationalparrot.com/biting.html

 

http://www.thegabrielfoundation.org/pdffiles/dominance.pdf

 

http://www.thegabrielfoundation.org/html/behavior.htm

 

http://www.naturalencounters.com/images/Publications&Presentations/Anatomy_of_Parrot_Behavior-Steve_Martin.pdf

 

 

 

Scientists are now even rethinking dominance theory as applied to predator animals as well: http://ptfordogs.blogspot.com/2009/11/debunking-dominance-theory.html<br><br>Post edited by: crossfit, at: 2010/03/23 05:25

[crossfit]

There is no research backing up this dominance hypothesis. What seems to be more likely is that the need to be high up is do to being a prey animal that escapes by flight and by being out of reach. The birds at the tops of the trees seem to be sentries or look outs for watching while the Grey's on the ground are eating. There is very little out there about the natural behaviour in the wild for African Greys but none of what I have found seems to imply a dominant flock leader. This is even less true for New World parrots that live in multispecies flocks. Just how would they all decide which bird of which species gets to be leader?

 

This is a common myth about parrots that springs from our own behaviour and our knowledge of dog behaviour. We are agressive animals. Reading into the parrots desire for height as being one of dominance is seeing ourselves in their behaviour, not truly observe how and why they go to the trees in their natural environment.

 

http://www.rationalparrot.com/biting.html

 

http://www.thegabrielfoundation.org/pdffiles/dominance.pdf

 

http://www.thegabrielfoundation.org/html/behavior.htm

 

http://www.naturalencounters.com/images/Publications&Presentations/Anatomy_of_Parrot_Behavior-Steve_Martin.pdf

 

 

 

Scientists are now even rethinking dominance theory as applied to predator animals as well: http://ptfordogs.blogspot.com/2009/11/debunking-dominance-theory.html

[timotian]

Cage Height: There is a definite correlation between altitude and attitude with captive parrots. Consequently, if a bird has an aggressive or dominant personality, this can be exacerbated if the cage allows it to sit above the human eye level in its environment. This is especially problematic with the so-called "cage-top playgyms" marketed with various types of cages. People often don't wish to give up their own living space, so tall but narrow cages and cage-top play areas are popular. Ironically, they also contribute to home-threatening behaviors. Aggressive or dominant psittacids can be lowered a couple of wayseither by lowering the cage, or by lowering the perches within the cage. Denying access to cage tops and removing the highest perches from tall climbing 'trees' can also help a great deal. If cage and playgym designs don't allow alteration, then (using Chris Davis' trick) one can raise the people. By placing a footstool or small ladder next to the cage, the owner thereby raises smaller humans to a position of higher rank.

If too high is potentially problematic with parrot behavior, so also is the opposite. A nervous, high-strung and/or phobic bird's condition can be worsened if its cage placement is too low. I also do not approve of the old technique of placing an aggressive parrot's cage on the floor. Being trapped on the ground must be terrifying to prey animals like psittacids, and the act of terrifying an animal has no place in behavior modification.

 

 

Height and Shouldering: As an addendum to the issue of height dominance, a common practice that can be especially dangerous is the ancient fashion of allowing parrots on shoulders. A popular custom over centuries of parrot custodianship, this practice probably didn't become especially dangerous until the advent of domestic-bred parrots. Wild caught parrots have a fundamental respect for humans as predators, whereas domestics have no such regard. As a result, domestics are capable of much greater violence towards people. Hence, allowing parrotsespecially adolescentsto shoulder is particularly dangerous, not just because of the superior altitude and therefore dominance of the bird. Shouldering parrots places the birds within easy access of extremely vulnerable (and valuable) parts of the owner's anatomy (eyes, ears, noses, lips, etc.), which are then subject to severe damage from the parrot's beak. This type of injury can permanently harm not only the human anatomy, but also the parrot-human bond. Damage can occur even if the bird didn't intend to bite but was startled into grabbing onto something to keep from falling. Knowing the parrot meant no malice does not decrease healing time. This is probably the only issue on which all experienced lay parrot behaviorists totally agree.

 

reference:

1 Blanchard, S. "Problems With Parrots On Shoulders." The Pet Bird Report, Issue #25, 1995.

 

 

2 Athan, M.S. "The Importance Of Being Tall." Guide to a Well-behaved Parrot. Barrons, 1993, 64-66.

 

 

3 Davis, C. "New Techniques in Pet Avian Behavior Modification." Proceedings of Annual Conference, Association of Avian Veterinarians. 1989, pp. 183-189.

 

 

4 Wilson, L. "Behavior Problems in Adolescent Parrots: Guide to a Well-Adjusted Pet." Proceedings of Annual Conference, Association of Avian Veterinarians, 1995, pp. 415-418.

[crossfit]

Take a look at the date of your references. The most recent is fifteen years ago. There has a been a lot of research since then and most of the studies in the wild have been done since then.

 

One of your references is a Barron publication. From The African Grey Parrot published by Barron in 2000 and revised in 2009 page 56

 

"Although we can begin with an assumption that height may be causing territorial agression, trial and error changes might demonstrate that the opposite is true. Agression might be difficult to distinguish from fear because of the Grey parrots well developed Fight or Flight response, especially the first part of the Fight of Flight response - fear biting. Either raising or lowering the height of the bird might bring a feeling of safety and eliminate the need to nip. Additionally, a shy bird may experience enhanced confidence by merely raising the height of the cage or the perches customarily used"

 

Anyways, we can agree to disagree. Each bird owner is responsible to their birds and need to find what works for them.

[timotian]

thank you for attention dear crossfit

Anyways, we can agree to disagree. Each bird owner is responsible to their birds and need to find what works for them.

[judygram]

crossfit wrote:

Anyways, we can agree to disagree. Each bird owner is responsible to their birds and need to find what works for them.

 

Amen to that.

[jessdecutie18]

While agreeing to disagree... I still am curious as to people's experience with this.

 

Yoshi, as a baby, was always on our shoulder and it only took her about a month to realize that nibbling on my ear or pulling my husband's glasses while on our shoulders means "No!" and back to her cage for a time-out. Yoshi hasn't once nibbled on my ear or pulled my husband's glasses off in over 6 months. I think it's safe to say she has learnt not to.

 

Yoshi now loves to be on my shoulder while I'm doing stuff, it enables us to stay close. I say "hold on!" if I bend over to pick something up and she grabs my shirt with her beak and flaps... it's so cute. She gives kisses easily and runs across my shoulders talking and stuff. Now that she is potty trained, I rarely get any accidents on my shoulder either, which is a major plus!

 

The only thing I've seen that's difficult with her being higher is not being able to grab her, but even that isn't really a problem because she is usually willing to step down, especially if a peanut or sunflower seed is included in the deal!

 

Honestly, I have seen nothing at all from Yoshi or in my previous bird experience to say that a bird is being agressive because of hight. It's about training and individual behavior, not height.<br><br>Post edited by: jessdecutie18, at: 2010/03/24 19:00

[Elvenking]

Lol...keep my flying bird lower than me at all times??? Yeah...that's gonna work. I gave up on that on day one. And he loves riding around on my shoulder, so long as he is well behaved...he can stay there. If he should start to be dominating, a quick stint in the cage can set that straight...so far I haven't had to do that...knock on wood.

 

Below you will see his playground. Climb away boy!

 

 

Post edited by: Elvenking, at: 2010/03/24 19:46<br><br>Post edited by: Elvenking, at: 2010/03/24 19:47

[Spinner]

Studies aside, here's my observations.

 

Here's a typical scenario: Two birds are playing on a gym and get testy with each other, the one "on top" has the advantage over the other, and both will try to resist being below. I also know that a bird on top of the play stand is far more "reluctant" to step than the grey playing on the floor. I wouldn't label these examples as dominance, just different levels of motivation for each (to step up or not).

 

Further, if Gabi is on my shoulder, I guarantee she will get nippy at some point. Not dominance, just easy access to toys known as ears. And just like Jess, my birds know being nippy has consequences which is why Beaker isn't seen on my shoulder.

 

And let's not forget territorial birds, like Gonzo when he's protecting Camilla who is on nest. The flock stays away from their cage for fear of nipped toes.

 

Paying attention to birds in the nursery interacting with older birds shows an interesting "order" of acceptable behaviour between the birds. There is an order of what a specific bird will accept from another, and that behaviour is most often related to the personalities involved (gregarious, quiet, playful, etc).

 

I won't quote any studies for fear of public ridicule :silly: as what I present here is purely anecdotal based on my interaction with greys. I'll still be happy to assign flawed human constructs to my greys - besides, they have no idea they aren't people themselves and I'm not telling them otherwise.

 

Now, where's the ladder?

[danmcq]

Thats it, I'm strapping on some wings so I can stay higher than Dayo and fly after him when he tries to escape caging.

 

I will say, if Dayo is going to bite me, it does not matter if he is high, counter level or on the floor. If he chooses not to obey my step-up, I see the body language and bite coming before it happens, well most the time.......He can be sooo sneaky. :-)

 

I do know, whether my grey or conure is high or low, does not seem to matter in their apparent display of dominance. It's all about attitude. Sometimes Jake the Lion Hearted conure will stand toe to toe with Dayo until he is bull-rushed and must flee to avoid a strong bite. - :-)

[Spinner]

Too good, Dan!

 

I've been looking for my own wings....where did you get yours?

[Elvenking]

Very well put Dan. That is more of the observation I see with my two birds. I also have a Green Cheek Conure that sees nothing of rushing my Grey, Issac, off of his cage. Nipping at his feet. This is a stage that has long since passed. Issac now knows that Pedro's cage is no place to land.

 

At any rate, I am pretty sure that neither of these birds gets the idea that they are going to dominate me. After all, I am where the food comes from.

[judygram]

There is probably truth to both sides, it just depends on the individual bird, height doesn't make much difference to Josey but to some it would. She will step up for me even if she is higher than me.

[crossfit]

Thats it, I'm strapping on some wings so I can stay higher than Dayo and fly after him when he tries to escape caging.

 

I think they call that hang gliding. And actually I saw a falconry website of a guy hangliding with his falcons free flying. So I guess its possible.

[Dave007]

****e)if the bird cannot be lowered,raise the people-place a footstool or small ladder next to the cage,thereby raising smaller humans to a position of higher rank.******

 

Listen, I just came across some realy gooood stuff. I hang out at the basketball areas at college schools. My stuff is guaranteed to put on at least 8 to 10 inches. I just gotta watch out for the coach.

Contact me for prices. No shipping out of state.

Problem solved!!

 

AND--for those people who wanna be in the in crowd and have the latest from 5th Ave

 

I make custom sized wings

 

Contact me to make an appointment for a custom fitting and prices.<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2010/03/25 01:44

[judygram]

Thanks but no thanks Dave, you really crack me up sometimes!

 

 

{Feel-good-0002006E}

[crossfit]

sorry Dave. Eight to ten inches isn't going to make me taller than my fids. That wouldn't get to me to six feet! But thanks for trying.

 

What kind of feathers do you use on those wings? I hear Daedalus and Icarus might have some suggestions for you about materials.

[JillyBeanz]

I don't need wings, I am already an angel.......:laugh:

[jessdecutie18]

Hehe Jill, sure you are!

 

ElvenKing, that setup looks great... I like the atom a lot. I've considered getting Yoshi an atom