Point Blank Refusal!

[JillyBeanz]

Over the last few weeks my once sweet, loving, caring grey has decided he'd like to reach the "terrible twos" earlier than anyone else (he's 15 months).

 

He knows when he is going to be taken to his cage - so bites (and means it). I did overcome this by using the spare perch from the cage, which he obliged and stepped up onto - but now he won't do that either - and if I do get him onto it, he flies off. I can't hold his back when he's on the perch to stop him flying - he turns and bites me!

 

Is this a passing phase or is there something I can do to stop him from doing this? When we go on holiday in July he will have to stay in his cage for the full two weeks - because there is no way I think my parents should have to put up with this (which may lead to plucking etc).

 

HELP!!!!

[Jayd]

B) Spock here, don't you think we know when it's time to go nite-nite? Well maybe we don't want to right then!!! How would you liked to be picked up by your feet and some giant put there hand on the back of your neck and shove you behind bars?!!!Terrible twos my red feathers, we just want to stay up..[Oh well, I'll stop soon.]

Spock

Live long and Prosper [And please warm your hands before you manhandle me..]

[Lambert58]

Well, it IS springtime, and it is also moulting season... so they can get pretty cheeky.

 

Having said that, Cleo is the same way (11 months old) about going into her cage in the morning. We just bribe her! We reserve her very favorite morning treat (oatmeal with raisins) for getting her in the cage.

 

One thing you don't want to do is make it a battle. No one will win if it comes to biting. Sneak him in, trick him, use magic if you have to lol, but make it as fun as possible. I know it's not easy, but you'll be surprised at how resourceful you can be

[pearllyn]

Your not alone Jill - Alfie reached her terrible twos early too - around the same age if memory serves. The good news is, while I'm not going to say we've passed it (still plenty of time for a relapse!) we have certainly gotten over that initial phase that you are going through just now - and Alfie's behaviour was just what you are describing to the letter (remember that one afternoon where I couldn't walk my dogs because Alfie wouldn't go into her cage and I cried on your shoulder all day!!?)

The bad news, at least it was for me, was you may just have to grit your teeth and take some bites before you see any improvement - it worked for us. Just like Harvey, Alfie would bite hard if we were putting her in her cage - she drew blood on a daily basis, but what turned the corner for us was the timeout cage, and I can honestly say she never bites any more when we're asking her to step up, or putting her in her cage.

Regarding securing him to put hiim in his cage, I'm afraid I just put a hand over Alfies back and took the bite - when I didn't react to the first two or three, she gave up. But if you address the biting thing first, that won't be an issue.

If he's getting wide and see's it coming - try the old smoke and mirrors trick - have him concentrate on something else while you get him into a position where he finds it difficult to fly off - for instance if he's on your hand and you keep your hand close to your body with harvey at a 90 degree angle to you, he wont be able to open his wings easily and you can have him in his cage before he sorts himself out.

Also, if I want to secure Alfie to put her in her cage (she still resists occasionally, but only for a minute or two before the humans prevail) make him think he's not going into his cage, but ask him to step up and then head for his tree. As you put him into position to step off, secure him while his mind is on the step off!

Just a couple of suggestions, they might work for you, might not, but they did for us and we're all in a happy place right now!

So don't despair! I can't recall how long this phase lasted with Alfie, it probably seemed like forever at the time - maybe a month or two? They're all different anyhow so maybe Harvey will get over it quicker - there does seem to be some similarities popping up between them though!!:ohmy: :laugh:

Take a deep breath and good luck!

x

[Jayd]

Great reply Pearllyn;) Karma to you...Spock

[Lambert58]

recently, Willow has become the needy/snuggly/wannabewithyou loverbear.

 

Can I call this the "wonderful ones"? Her hatch day is 15 Apr... I think I should enjoy her snuggly cuddlerificness while I can.<br><br>Post edited by: Lambert58, at: 2010/03/13 17:19

[pearllyn]

Thank you Spock!

 

Lol Lambert - the wonderful 1's! That has a nice ring to it! And yes - they are there to be appreciated!!

[JillyBeanz]

Thanks for your replies ~ and indeed I remember our chat about Alfie well Lyn ~ and Harvey puts me entirely to mind of that!

 

Actually - it's not just if he thinks he's going back to his cage, it's anytime he doesn't want to be removed from where he wants to be (top of the stairs on the banister is another favourite - and he has never flown down, so would quite happily sit up there and chew chunks from the wood)!

 

Treats don't work - he's cute to those too! Sometimes I think these animals are just too bloody clever for their own good! :laugh:

 

I'm going to try all of your suggestions - but I might be posting next week for a good recipe for parrot pie!

[JillyBeanz]

Lambert58 wrote:

I think I should enjoy her snuggly cuddlerificness while I can.<br><br>

 

Erm, in one word - YES! :laugh:

[Xtreme575]

Jill, Paco is now 9 months, and although I'm hopeful that he isn't near his terrible two's yet, I have noticed a huge increase in his independence lately.

 

What I have been trying is just messing up his expectations. I'm very routine, and Paco has gotten to a point where he can anticipate my every move. So, I'm changing it up. rather than asking him to step up to go back to the cage, I'm playing, rather than playing, I'm cuddling, just throwing off his expectations has created some chaos in his schedule has made him more compliant, he just doesn't know what to expect from me.

[Luvparrots]

Well Jill, sounds like Harvey is a very spirited grey and has oodles of self-confidence and that is a tribute to you. Have you tried not giving treats or other edible things outside the cage and only put them in the cage when you need to get Harvey back in. I know all I have to say is "Ana Grey, want a nut?" and she comes flying. I always clean and supply my fids water and food dishes before their bed time and they both have no trouble heading for their cages at bedtime. Good luck and hang in there!

[Lambert58]

This is a really good topic.

 

What is a fundamental reality that all us parronts sometimes forget is that we're not raising human children. What I mean is: we tend, as humans, to try and -teach- behaviors.

 

I'm not sure how to put it, but when it comes to getting our fids to behave the way we want, we can often make the mistake of treating them in a manner that would make a human child do what we want. That's usually a bad plan when it comes to our fids... they don't think/operate that way.

 

I could write a dissertation on human/avian interaction having only been owned by my parrots for a year, but the one lesson I've learned is they don't think like we do, and to be an effective parront you have to learn to think like them.

 

I'm sure that made no sense lol.

[JillyBeanz]

Oh, since my last post in this topic Harvey and I have done 20 laps of the house. I was sitting reading and he was on his java tree - he flew at me, sat on my knee and as soon as I went to stroke him - he bit me (hard). Therefore I decided to remove him to his cage for some time out. Impossible - off he went - even now taking refuge on top of a picture I have in the hall. It took me 12 minutes to get him in his cage - I even walked away from him and took my own "time out" because by the end of it I was so frustrated. Then, all of a sudden, it's like the switch is flicked and he'll step up. I think I've created a monster.....!

[Luvparrots]

:laugh: Harvey certainly has your number Jill, he knows how to get one-on-one time with you. He is quite a smarty pants. Be calm, you can certainly outsmart this little 1 1/2 old!!!! :laugh:

[caseyandmikey]

Hey Jill I am sorry to hear of the trouble you are having with Harvey. Mikey is pretty bad with step up when he wants to be also. I have tried re training step up and down to him as if it is the first time everytime with red grapes cut in fours. Harvey doesn't go for that kind of stuff? Now I just keep my mouth shut and take the bites. I knew it would hurt but daaamn. Leaving the room is the only thing that works quickly and painlessly.Once my anger subsides I go back and simply ask him once more. Once he is close to the cage I make sure his feet are gripping me tightly and I try to make him feel a little unsteady as I put his beak to his perch which he then grabs quickly. I am sorry I don't have good advice but I do wish you the best of luck. Stay strong.

[Lambert58]

Oh... you've got a handful! He's definitely in Monster Mode. Be patient, do your best not to reinforce any of his little fits, and remember: you'll get through this.

 

My GCCs are currently behaving like this... and the smaller they are, they more terrorifical they are (I made that word up! )

 

I just tell them I love them, take the occasional bite (my hand looks like I'm a meth addict) and rack it up to love lol

[Jayd]

What a wonderful post Jill...The first part of this article talks about what your going through right now.

http://www.africangreys.com/articles/overview/beauty.htm

Here's a clip from Margaret T.Wright on Grey's,

*:none of the material I had read could have completely prepared me for the experience of owning a Grey. Nurturing a Grey is more like dealing with a child than a pet. I found myself relying on some of the child psychology courses I had taken in college. But Greys are not children: they are intelligent, wild animals, once or twice removed from the wild at most that need to be taught how to be good companions.

Grey's possess an enormous ability to pick up on our thoughts, feelings, moods and energy, and they force us to face ourselves because they reflect in their behavior what is going on in and around us.*

The way we teach our Grey's is in so many ways similar to the way we teach our children. Each day it amazes me in how much human like Grey's really are....Uh, sorry about Spock, he's going through his terrible 2's.

Jayd<br><br>Post edited by: Jayd, at: 2010/03/14 00:51

[Jane08]

Oh I feel for you we went through this with both of our greys. Just when the first one got over it the second one started as she is younger...I thought I would die.

 

The key is to stay calm....yes I know hard to do but show even a slight bit of stress or annoyance and they become even more stubborn. I try to talk to them softly and calmly and tell them exactly what is going to happen and why I need them to go in. I also picture in my head an imagine of them going in the cage which helps me feel calm. I also try to project all these feelings of love towards them. I know this sounds a bit like some hippy way of doing things but it really worked for me. I did this for months and months and it really paid off as now when I do this they both step up and come in the cage no problem. Rangi even sits there and says "going to work, must go in the cage" so I know he actually knows what that means.

 

For me I wasn't going to take the bites it hurts so much and I am such a wuss. I know you say treats don't work, but I would spend ages just finding the right treat for that day to lure them in. I would be digging everything out of the cupboard just to see if it interested them, it might just be some bag that made a noise that they wanted, a sweet paper that was red and Rangi like it. Believe me I would try even the most unusual things.

 

Really the good news is that it will get better and pass just hang in there and get creative.

[JillyBeanz]

Thanks for that link Jay - and Harvey is definitely as described "a pit bull with claws". Some other great reading matter on that site too.

 

You're all right about not reacting or showing my frustration - but it is so difficult (I'm not the most patient of people at the best of times - so when I'm getting bitten I'm even less so)!

 

Today's been fine - it's quite fine here in the UK so I've opened the conservatory doors and put his java tree in there - other than constantly jumping on top of the blinds and picking them off he's been quite well behaved (but I haven't tried putting him in his cage as I haven't been anywhere)!

 

I've tried the food bribe - doesn't work, so perhaps something more unusual might work - I'll definitely give it a try Jane - thanks!

 

Until I next get a good bite......

[Talon]

Hi Jill, Just have to chime in here. I went thru the same thing with Talon last year. She was always so good about going into her play cage when I had to leave for work. Then one day...she said, NOPE! and off she flew. I too would spend 15-20 minutes trying to get her into her cage. She did as Harvey did. I tried everything, I would get so frustrated and mad at her...:evil: BUt then I quickly reminded myself, she's only a bird, don't reinforce this behavior, she doesn't really think like I do.

We have a large opening in the room, and 2 french doors on the other end. I would close the doors, and I would have to hang a sheet with thumbtacks over the other opening to keep her in the room. Well, all she did is fly around the room. Once I calmed down, I would get a NEW treat, and get her to step up. I would talk to her about something in her cage and I would move gently, but fast.. Just trying to occupy her mind so she wouldn't think to fly off. This behavior went on for 2-3 months. then POOF! it was gone!

I had to keep telling myself it was just a stage...it will pass...and it did!

Hang in there. Just make sure that you haven't made any changes in his cage that he may be frightened of.

Best of luck to you! B)

[crossfit]

HI,

 

Something that has worked with me for my human children, both during the terrible twos and the teen years - I ask myself, what need of theirs is being met by this behaviour? Is there another way to meet that need so that my needs can also be met? I don't know if that will help you think it through but its a start.

 

Also, just a pet peeve. The "pit bull" comments bug me. I have owned pit bulls for years and they are brilliant animals. They bite hard when they bite but they are not actually the dog with the most chance of biting. That honor goes to Cocker Spaniels. Saying an animal that bites or is aggressive is like a pit bull is similar to saying "all Greys are clumsy" or "all Greys are feather pickers". There is some truth to it, mostly due to how they are treated by their humans, but it isn't absolutely true and the species suffers for the misinformation. In the case of pit bulls, many are simply killed when they could be rehomed to appropriate homes with ease. I keep intending to write the original author of that article about it so sorry for the soap box. I just wanted to correct it here.

[Jayd]

A very good analogy,crossfit wrote Saying an animal that bites or is aggressive is like a pit bull is similar to saying "all Grey's are clumsy" or "all Greys are feather pickers". Grey's are famous for being at the top of the list for being *Plucker's* and are very *Clumsy*, just as some *Pit-bulls* are known for being aggressive... Jayd

P.S.Our neighbors Pit-bull whom he has always treated extremely well, just bit his mouth causing a need for 36 stitches and Spock just tripped over his own feet...<br><br>Post edited by: Jayd, at: 2010/03/15 02:38

[JillyBeanz]

Not getting into the dog debate here (but there's a lovely off topic room, where I will gladly accept your debate)

 

Because he had a lovely day yesterday and did everything he wanted to, he went into his cage last night like an angel! Don't be worried though - I am not fooled by his turnaround in character - I know it won't last!

 

I'll see what he's like tonight and report back! Keep your ideas coming - I'm doing the distraction move at the moment :laugh:

[danmcq]

Your baby is gone Jill. You are now into the life of "A Grey with a MIND of it's own".

 

At his stage forward, you never know what your gonna get. Reminds of Forest Gumps famous words "Life is like a box of chocolates.... You never know what your gonna get".

 

Some days you get a bite, some a kiss and some BOTH!!! :-)

[JillyBeanz]

danmcq wrote:

At his stage forward, you never know what your gonna get. Reminds of Forest Gumps famous words "Life is like a box of chocolates.... You never know what your gonna get".

 

You are so right Dan! He is so sweet 99.9% of the time - it's just that fraction when he's not!

 

When I was making dinner tonight he was quite happily sitting on top of his cage (just outside the kitchen door). I had the door propped open whilst I chopped the veg etc. Once I started cooking he decided to fly in - which I think you will all agree isn't safe. I decided to put him back in his cage. I approached him with a walnut in one hand, ready for him to step up on the other - but no - his beak went firmly into my finger!

 

He is just downright adamant at the minute he's in charge! So, distraction with an object isn't working - I'm next going to try speech and talk to him about anything BUT going in his cage! Let's see what happens