What do you think?

[Joolesgreyuk]

I've often wondered if our greys actually know or care how much they are loved by their owners. Are they in fact like human babies who's only care in the world is where their next meal is coming from? Can they actually "love" a parent bird or flock member be it human or birds in a wild situation. My guess is that they are driven by two things; where the next meal is coming from and later this and pro creating.

 

What are your views on this, do you think your baby knows how much he/she is loved and can they even love in return or is love a purely human emotion? Ha I think I already know Dave's answer ;-)

[Elvenking]

I think that the relationship becomes something they don;t even really have to think about. They just know that part of their life is you, and a very important one. We take the place of foraging for food, providing comfort, praise and love. I think they live for that very thing and find the relationship very necessary. That, I think as humans, we can interpret as love. They certainly appear to have an array of emotions, I can certainly tell when Issac is excited and content. By the way he flies to me in constant curiosity and seeking companionship, I would definitely lean toward saying he is capable of love. I mean when you really look at it, the people you love are caring, look out for you, and would be trusted with all that is precious to you as you reciprocate the same.

 

Yes...they love <br><br>Post edited by: Elvenking, at: 2010/02/25 21:36

[JungleDreamz]

I think so to, I mean I am sure is is differant from the human way of "loving" but I mean like, My calypso, She wont let anyone touch her but me, And she clearly just tolerates other people. But she wants head scratches all the time from me and wants to be with me all the time. So I am obviously special to her in some way. Whatever you want to call it, lol :woohoo:

[Luvparrots]

I believe Ana Grey trusts me and knows that I provide for her. Would I take my grey outside and trust that she would not fly away and if she did that she would come back? No! She would however remember me when she got hungry and wonder why I didn't come get her and give her some food and put her to bed.

[Elvenking]

I wonder if Issac knows how treated I am when he perches on my shoulder making sweet little bird noises as I go about my business, how much I love that very thing. Or what it means when I get this huge smile on my face and say "Goo'boy" to him after he has done something good, how totally in love with him I am. How fun it is to have so much influence upon such a vulernable creature, and to use it explicitly for good.

[Elvenking]

luvparrots wrote:

She would however remember me when she got hungry and wonder why I didn't come get her and give her some food and put her to bed.

 

Goodness....please...my nerves cannot take the thought. I wrestle with that concept at least once a day...probably to remind myself of what a big responsability I have taken on by leaving him flighted. I am going to train him to come to a few commands. He already gets the idea from when I say, "C'mere" that its okay to fly to me. But I would much rather get the click training going too. This is one trick I am going to work hard on.<br><br>Post edited by: Elvenking, at: 2010/02/25 22:34

[Dave007]

""""Can they actually "love" a parent bird or flock member be it human or birds in a wild situation""""

 

Change that word to *depend upon*

 

Answer is yes--Love? no. Anything your bird does with you, he /she will do with flocks of birds in the wild no matter how affectionate he/she may seem to be. That's part of their survival mode. In the wild, they simply don't have the multitude of man made items that a bird reacts to---Toys.

 

Will show love to their new born chicks? No. Change that word to careful tenderness. Then the answer is yes. Extreme protective attitude of both parents? Yes. That has to do with survival. The purpose of tender extreme nurturing by the parents is another survival mode. The chicks must be made strong in order to add to the success of the flock. Nature dictates when the bond between parents and offspring is broken.

 

These are basic facts about wild animals. Birds are wild animals and haven't made us dependent on them. It's the other way around.

If parrots in the wild were given the choice, they would have nothing to do with us.

Another thing as far as love for us, if they escape they won't make any big effort to come home. They usually have to be found, captured or tricked in order to get the bird back.<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2010/02/25 23:15

[Elvenking]

Well Dave, it really depends on how you translate love into behavior. Since we as cognatvie beings interpret everything based on words, and only a fraction on instinct...the meaning of love has been molded into form over time using other concepts and words. Spoken language really changed everything. Whereas, animals simply behave in a way that appears to be love to us. Love is not a fact of nature, it's man made.

 

Depend upon could very well mean love...why not...it's open to interpretation anyway. If it suits you to believe that the concept of love applies to your bird...why not. <br><br>Post edited by: Elvenking, at: 2010/02/25 23:45

[JungleDreamz]

I agree elvenking, And with you too dave...But that is what I was trying to say, Call it what you want, we do share something special. And Love is a human thing, Love could have a totally differant meaning in the parrot world, The definition could be differant than ours. So maybe they do "love" just in there own way, By the way that they do take care of thier young and have a "favorite" even though it is at the same time instint. But just like some humans love thier babies more than others, some greys take care of thier babies more than others, and this I would consider "love" just a differant type.

[Brittany]

I agree with what a bit of what everyone is saying. I would say they do love, but a different kind of love.

 

The funny thing is, I know I love my bird more than she loves me. I think I need her more than she needs me. I love her so much and I would hate to be without her.

 

But the relationship between me and the bird is special. [Even more special between her and my boyfriend;)]

 

Whatever it is between us, i love it!

[judygram]

Whether my bird loves me who knows, I doubt it, like Dave said they don't really know "love" like we do but we do share a special relationship and she trusts me, I will provide all the love.

[Xtreme575]

Ya.. I have love enough for the two of us, as long as I have his trust, and that he wants to hang with me, then I'm satisfied.

[Elvenking]

For me its clear..humans exagerate nature with words..animals don't. Love is nebulous....attraction can be love....a word can translate to love...love is defined by us.

[Joolesgreyuk]

I tend to agree with Judy on this one, I think love is purely a human emotion, animals are more basic than we are - they have to be to survive in the wild. I believe they come to TRUST us, to the extent they feel comfortable and safe with us but I don't believe they can know how to love in the human sense.

 

Thanks everyone for the replies, interesting discussions. B)

[JungleDreamz]

Yes Elvenking, Thats what I was trying to say, lol, Love is defined by us, humans, So the greys, and all animals, could have thier own kind of love, I mean if they can have favorites, they are showing deeper interest in that "one" than others, and I am saying besides mating, I know they dont have Love in that sence, that is purely to make thier species survive, and stick around, just instinct. But they do have favorites other than mates. And I say if they can have a fav, they are feeling something more special with that "One" than the others, so that could be defined as love, at least on an animal basis. Like I said before, just a differant kind.

 

So I agree with all of you, in differant ways, haha

 

Great topic Jooles!

[ecodweeb]

Given this is one of the rare bird species that mates for life, I think they do indeed have a sense of love and devotion.

 

sharing that with us, not so sure about. then again, how many birds lived in a home 20-30 years then turned to extreme self mutilation when the owner passed?

 

sounds like love and remorse to me.

[Elvenking]

Yeah...I think there are many ways to refer to a 'bond', love is just one of them...could be friendship, attraction, dependant, co-habitation, relative....words...words...words.

[JungleDreamz]

Great point Ecodweeb. Something to think about...

[danmcq]

How does anyone define "love"?

 

It varies greatly even among humans in my opinion.

 

Is it protecting your mate and family?

 

Is it monogamy? (cheat, yet "Love" their mate)

 

Is it feeling a loss when someone dies?

 

Once you "Love" a person, do most move on after a morning and hurt period with their lives?

 

We all use different weight and measures to quantify this english word "love".

 

In Greek, there are many words for diffent types of "love".

 

In english we love ice cream. soap operas, actors, our pets, etc.

 

So, I'll leave you all with that thought.

 

In my opinion, my critters one and all, love me at some level.

 

Post edited by: danmcq, at: 2010/02/26 20:42<br><br>Post edited by: danmcq, at: 2010/02/26 20:43

[Dave007]

And I'll add another important thing here and it concerns people who have recently gotten very young greys and who are now going through the first stages of ownership with those birds.

Most of the relationships chat here has to do with what is going on with that new or very adolescent grey.

I can say this---deeply enjoy these first stages of ownership with your grey. It won't always be that way. For many people, the grey is their first parrot.

Let me see, how can I say this without hurting people's feelings? Okay, I'll simply say it the way it is and it's not meant to accuse, hurt or insult people.

Many, many people even though they've thoroughly checked out many things concerning buying a grey before purchasing a grey haven't done one particular certain thing----learning about the future personality of greys when they're adults. The adult 4,5,6 yr old grey will be nothing like the very young baby bird that's owned right now. The adult grey will become very possessive, jealous, aloof, head strong, sometimes aggressive and will show signs of what many people will mistakenly think of as moodiness or unhappiness. The multitude of toys that are played with right now will lessen. The bird will want more time to be by itself so that it can ponder and act like a grey acts. The sweet cuddling and petting of the baby grey all over the place that's going on right now will eventually become very sexually oriented by the bird and that type of thing will need to be lessened or serious biting will occur. It's happened countless times.

Many many people don't realize that the species called african grey--CAG or TAG are well known for not being a *cuddle* bird when they're adults. This upsets people as and when they see it happening. I can't begin to tell you how many times distraught upset people have posted here and on other boards about their *cuddle* birds who in their eyes are going through a personality change. They're so upset that they sometimes put their posts in capital letters. They simply can't understand why the bird isn't the same bird that it was when it was a baby. I've seen people take their bird to a vet because they thought their bird was sick. Most of the time, people wrongly blame themselves.

With that change, the permanent personality of the adult african grey emerges. That change has nothing to do with what the owner is doing or not doing. It's simply a change that many people never knew was coming. It's a change that occurs with greys.

I've dealt with hundreds of greys and I've yet to see it not happen.<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2010/02/26 22:12

[Elvenking]

To that end, human babies grow up the same way...do we love them any less?

 

What was the purpose of that post Dave? I respect your view, I also know what to expect from my baby when he gets older. It doesn't make him any less of an amazing pet.

[Dave007]

The purpose of my post was to give people knowledge about the baby bird they now own and the adult bird they will also own. I would assume that people would appreciate it if there's no surprises in the future. It's my contribution concerning the african grey. Take it for what it's worth. In my opinion, knowledge never hurt anyone.

[Elvenking]

Okay It just appeared to be an attempt to invalidate the arguments made regarding the original intention of the post...and I wanted to make sure that wasn't the case/<br><br>Post edited by: Elvenking, at: 2010/02/26 22:46

[danmcq]

Dave007 wrote:

And I'll add another important thing here and it concerns people who have recently gotten very young greys and who are now going through the first stages of ownership with those birds.

I've dealt with hundreds of greys and I've yet to see it not happen.<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2010/02/26 22:12

 

As always Dave, your advice is spot on and all (me included) need to listen and heed it.

 

Thanks for always giving us such good information based on decades of experience. :-)

[danmcq]

Elvenking wrote:

Okay It just appeared to be an attempt to invalidate the arguments made regarding the original intention of the post.

 

I personally never view Dave's posts as arguments, nor to I view anyone elses posts that may be the opposite of my statements argumentative.

 

Each persons perception, experience and environment is different depending on their experience with critters and life in general.

 

What one person calls "LOve" may be another persons nightmare, depending on lifes experiences.

 

Everything is relative to the instant in time a person is at. Atleast thats how I view things. :-)