Palm Nuts and Aloe Juice

[Joolesgreyuk]

I've been having a consultation with Greg Glendell the behaviour specialist (recommended) regarding Argyle and the problems we have been having with him. Greg asked me to fill out an online form which consisted of a variety of questions covering everything including diet. I happened to mention that Argyle isn't interested in palm nuts which Beau enjoys regularly, this was his answer:

" Would not feed any bird palm nuts, unless > it was flying about 500miles per week; its just pure fat!"

 

I also answered his question regarding spraying Argyle stating that I sprayed with 50%water/50%aloe juice. This was his reply:

"Would not put anything on his wings except pure water, unless on avian > veterinary advice."

 

This advice is contrary to advice received from members on this forum and to what I have come to believe. I'd be interested on other people's thoughts on this.

 

Link to Greg's website: http://www.greg-parrots.co.uk/

[Jane08]

Rangi and Kea would riot if I stopped with the plam nuts, they might even leave home. I have been giving them palm nuts since they were small and they love them and get alot of benefits from them. Of course you couldn't let them munch out on them all day and need to restrict how many they have, just like anything that contains fatty acids.

 

If it was the case that they need to fly 500miles a week after having plam nuts then I am sure we would have a load of overweight greys on this forum. Haven't heard of one overweight grey after eating palm nuts for an extended period of time.

 

I don't use Aloe Vera, but this is a natural product that doesn't contain any chemicals or additives and has huge benefits. I really can't see a problem with this either.

[Greywings]

Perhaps it is not the weight but the fatty acid content of the blood that concerns him? Until you spin down some blood and see the levels of fat on top of the fluids and solids you just don't know. It is likely the blood work could show normal levels but until tested who knows? Greys have a history of heart issues on captivity that can shorten their lives-not saying this is what the fact is, just some thing to consider. My Vet. who is both Avian and Zoo certified does recommend some palm oil especially for those birds with dry skin, low body weight or feather breakage issues.

[danmcq]

I agree with Greywings.

 

Most Avian Certified vets that have done a ton of work with African Greys. Agree that they need a higher oil and fat percent of diet than many other parrots.

 

In regards Aloe, that is also recommended by many of these same vets due to the dander and dry skin issue most greys suffer from.

 

The problem I see with people that have not done a lot of species specific research will answer with a "Check with your vet first", rather than giving a direct comment basically because they don't know.

 

It's called passing the buck. ;-)

 

I will say, any species Parrot that is clipped and does not get a good cardio workout as they were designed to do. Will eventually suffer cardio vascular disease.

[JillyBeanz]

I've looked at his profile on his website and he is no more qualified to give comment on what's right and what's not than other knowledgeable members here on the forum! He's not a vet - he has BSc after his name - but it could be a BSc in computers or engineering. He is just a guy, interested in parrots who has developed his hobby into a money spinner.

 

I just did a quick google and I cannot find one site that says that you shouldn't feed palm nuts/oil - in fact the exact opposite!! All the sites I've read have said they are good in domestic circumstances for their feather conditioning ability.

 

As for the aloe - as Jane says - it's absolutely natural, occurring in the wild and you can see the difference in your fids skin when using it. I bet any money he has a "special mixture" he advises (and charges the earth for".

 

He might be able to help with the behaviour aspect - he does seem to have good feedback - but the palm nuts & aloe is a load of old phooey!

 

Anyway - does he think you pack 25 palm nuts in Argyle and Beau's dish each day?!

[Dave007]

Palm oil/nuts are what they eat in the wild. They also stop eating them when they've had enough. In captivity you can't force feed or over feed anything that a bird needs/wants including his/her favorite treats. That also includes the natural foods that they eat when in the wild. At one point the bird turns around and walks away until it's system requires those things. Many greys don't care for palm nuts but do enjoy the oil that surrouds the nuts and visa versa.

Aloe Vera Spray------Normally, people are the ones that use the product for digestive problems. They drink it. When that product is used on a parrot, it goes on the skin. The best success is if the bird's skin is saturated. The skin doesn't ingest the fluid. It reacts on the skin surface making it softer and more supple making the skin lest dry. It really doesn't do much for the outer feathers even though people say their bird's feathers look better.

I personally don't believe in online questionaires. The person hasn't seen or dealt with the bird which causes that person to give a blanket answer.

The people on boards who talk about are relaying their success or complete lack of success with it. The people who have no success with aloespray never complain that their bird suffered from it because there's no harm in using it in the first place. It simply didn't work.

The people who do have success are simply relaying the productive success that happened when using it.

When people are discussing their individual experiences, it can be compared to a heart to heart conversation and that type of communication always produces much better results.

Heart---a grey's biggest problem concerning the heart is hardening of the arteries which doesn't come from food. A good example is Alex. He was fed the finest most healthy foods that were available. Overnight he died from that disease. He was 31 yrs old. In captivity, a parrot is allowed to reach their maximum life span simply because they don't have to endure living in the wild. In the wild, the most common life span of a grey is about 30 yrs.

 

PS--Any parrot with very short blunt tail feathers such as greys, amazons, eckletus rarely travel 500 miles a day. Those types of birds are basically perching birds and only fly when they have to. Thats why they're the easiest to capture.

 

Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2010/01/19 18:41<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2010/01/19 18:52

[Joolesgreyuk]

Thanks everyone for the input:

Dan, I think you are quite right regarding the aloe, if you aren't sure - pass the buck lol

 

Dave, thank you for your comprehensive answer. Regarding the aloe juice, it really does soften Beau's feathers, they feel softer and silkier after a dousing has dried. As for the skin I wouldn't know as I've never gotton deep through his feathers to find out lol. Anyone who has a bird that plucks would know for sure but it is a soothing product, indeed aloe vera in it's original form is used for soothing sunburn and other skin irritations. As for the palm nuts, I think I will probably reduce the frequency they are given to Beau but I'll not cut them out altogether, surely they cannot be too harmful in moderation.

 

Jill, No you don't know what he has a BS in but it could be parrot/bird related just as it could be something else. I do think it is wrong to diss him especially on a public forum unless there is hard evidence his advice is dangerous. This guy has been recommended to me by an established member of this forum who has had good results following his advice on training.

 

BTW Dave, I was under the impression that greys lived up to 60-65 yrs in the wild, I'm surprised it is only 31 yrs!<br><br>Post edited by: Joolesgreyuk, at: 2010/01/19 19:41

[JillyBeanz]

Joolesgreyuk wrote:

Jill, No you don't know what he has a BS in but it could be parrot/bird related just as it could be something else. I do think it is wrong to diss him especially on a public forum unless there is hard evidence his advice is dangerous. This guy has been recommended to me by an established member of this forum who has had good results following his advice on training

 

Not sure why you've jumped on my comment - I said that he might have good results as according to his feedback he has - but I still bet you a million squid that he doesn't have a BSc in parrots or any other birds! It's his hobby that he's turned into a living - he says so himself in his profiles. He also says that he "changed careers".

 

You have already questioned his advice in a public posting - so why can't I !!!

[Joolesgreyuk]

I didn't "question" his advice, I said "I'd be interested in other people's thoughts" mainly because many people on this particular forum seem to be giving their birds either the palm nuts or the palm oil and because I was surprised at his comments. I didn't "jump" on your comments either, I picked up part of Yours, Dave's and Dan's. I just don't think it good practice to diss someone anywhere public unless you have hard evidence against them.

[JillyBeanz]

The "proof" is written by himself on the website you provided. He says he was an amateur ornithologist before setting up his consultancy in 1999 - so it's his statement, not mine - I wouldn't outwardly question somebody without reading into it.

 

I am not trying to "diss" him. If you read both my responses I say that his feedback is good for his behaviour techniques - he's just not "qualified" in the "qualification" sense - but obviously has experience of such matters.

 

Sorry if you feel I'm "dissing" him - I'm not, merely questioning him - as everyone else has who has posted, not just me personally!

 

Good luck - I truly hope he helps you with Argyle - I know what a terrible time you are having with him.

[Dave007]

I didn't diss anyone. I didn't point this person out individually. I said that many statements can be blanket statements concerning specific questions and I spoke of how good it is to get other people's opinions who have actually dealt with certain subjects, especially when all of those people are part of one congregation. That's a guarantee that many people can feel good about. Lots of pros and cons can be seen and learned about. I think that learning with that method can be very constructive and informative. Sorry if you think I dissed anyone.

[she]

Well I can only speak as I find. I have had Carlie over 6 years and Greg Glendell has given me some great advise over the years.Also I have spoken to him on the phone and he has given his advise free of charge.He advised me to get the aviary and gave me tips on flight training,persuading me to keep my birds flighted and giving me the knowledge to do so in as safe a way possable.I think as Greywings has said it is the fat content in the blood that is the concern.Even our flighted captive birds are couch potatoes compaired to wild parrots and need a diet that reflects that.I think that is the concern with palm nuts.I do feed palm nuts but not all the time.

[Joolesgreyuk]

I'd just like to add that Sheila has spoken to Charlie's avian vet regarding both palm nuts and aloe juice and well basically he seconded Greg's comments. He told her not to bother with either palm nuts or the aloe juice for spraying.

[Greywings]

My intent was not to "Diss" anyone, just to point out the hidden nature of fat in the blood verses weight. All of us want the very best for our birds -the healthiest lives and the most stable homes and hope their emotional state remains balanced. At the recent Parrot Festival here in Texas it was pointed out that birds today often live shorter lives than 20 years ago even though we know so much more about toxic issues, better nutrition ext. so we do need to work harder at exercise, less feedings perhaps and discover more about what will keep our precious feathered friends well and active into their later years. (I know some of these statistics may be influenced by first time owner who do not have a clue before they buy a bird. Not knocking first time people we all had to start somewhere.)

[danmcq]

Great post Greywings and Amen!

 

We all strive (I believe) to provide the best home our Parrots could have as responsible stewards given the opportunity and privilege to share our homes with them.

Karma to you. :-)

[Xtreme575]

Interesting topic, and one that I find interesting. I'm admittedly very new to sharing my life with a Grey, but even in the short amount of time that I have now been involved in this, one thing I have really noticed is that there is not a one size fits all for our birds.

 

It has become obvious to me that each bird is as individual as each of us. I have also observed the different circles of aviculturists who keep parrots and noticed that it is fractioned in several areas. Feed, flight, and training are just examples of what I have observed to be very different, some seem to be very modern, hip, and up-to-date with their views on parrot keeping, while others seem to be a bit more traditional, and are not aware of many of the new studies that have been done on parrots, and specifically African Greys.

 

I choose to be on this forum as I have found that the members here are exactly what I am looking for, hip, up-to-date and proactive to learn more about how to keep their parrots in the best possible way to experience the best, and longest relationship possible.

 

As far as the use of Palm Nuts, Aloe Vera, and the use of this behavioural specialist, again, this is all advice, try it, don't try it, but recognize that we all (no matter how much we love our babies) own an exotic bird that is only one or two (if we are lucky) generations out of the jungle. As such, the research, whatever is out there, is new, and may or may not be tested as well as we would like. Personally, I would love to be able to try a palm product on my parrot, however, palm anything is not allowed in Canada, too bad, I suspect that these birds need some oil to help their skin as well as other organs. I also use Aloe Vera juice, but have not yet made up my mind. If anything, it just seems to make his outter feathers look a little clumpy, so I may toss that out at some point....

 

I guess my point is, I feel a bit of a divide here that I don't think was intended at all. Let's reunite here, I think some "new" advice was offered, it may be right, it may be wrong. The behavioural specialist might create great results for one bird, might not for another. It is us up us, our bird's keepers to find out what is "right" for our little friends.

[she]

Julie is correct in saying my vet has advised me not to feed palm nuts.He weighed Charlie the other day and said he did not want him to put on any more weight.I mentioned the palm nuts and he said Greg is quite right.He said he would possably feed them to an aviary bird in the very cold weather to keep up fat stores but not to a house bird who does not need it.I also mentioned Aloe juice because I had taken Charlie because he has chewed at the top of his wing due to new feather growth causing irritation.His view on this was that on birds he has asked owners to use it on he has seen no benefit.The debate will go on .A collar was tried on Charlie but after a few hours he was clearly not going to accept it so we are now going through the route of anti histamines in his water and daily baths and a lot of distraction. I am pleased to say that yesterday and so far today he has left the wing alone.

 

Post edited by: she, at: 2010/01/28 09:07<br><br>Post edited by: she, at: 2010/01/28 13:47

[Joolesgreyuk]

Xtreme575 you are quite right. We are still learning so much about our exotic feathered friends and many people's views are based on hearsay or what is the fashionable advice at the time. I also agree much of it is personal choice. I'm not trying to tell people what to do with their own birds, it is up to them how they care for their own birds of course. I'm just offering an alternative view that was put to me by people who know more about it than I do! I hadn't heard this view before and so I though I'd ask for views on the subject. From my own point of view it would seem that these expensive items (aloe juice in particular which has to be bought from health food shops in smallish quantities) may be unnessesary.

 

From my own point of view Beau has in recent months seemed less interested in his palm nuts and now seems to take a few bites before dropping them - an expensive waste. I have tried giving them less often but he still doesn't seem that bothered so I think I may now phase them out. If however he was crazy about them I'd probably just give them less often. As for the aloe juice, I havent yet decided, I have currently run out of the stuff and have no plans as yet to go into town so I will probably be using plain old water for now. I do think the aloe juice is soothing to a bird that has dry skin or is a plucker so if these problems arose I would have to make a special trip to get some.

[danmcq]

This is a long read, but Important if you are seriously wanting know about Red Palm oil and why it IS recommended for African Greys.

 

I am going to add some "Clinical" data to the mix here on RPO. I feel we need to focus on studies and real life outcomes. Please note: African Greys are evolved to have a higher fat content in their diet than many other Parrots. Some vets may miss this and make comments in general due to other parrots that would die from a high fat diet!

 

Snipet of Comments by Pamela Clark an African Breeder and expert in the field:

 

Further, Vitamin A is a fat-soluble vitamin. Most parrots do not have an effective mechanism for fat storage the way that humans do; the necessity and ability to fly precludes this. Accordingly, even if adequate levels of vitamin A are present in the diet, it will not be able to be used most effectively in the body, unless the diet of Greys also contains adequate levels of fat. And this leads me to a fascinating observation.

 

We have largely ignored a very important fact regarding the diet of wild African Greys. Greys naturally feed extensively on the fruits of the red oil palm. Numerous references to this can be found in avicultural literature. Joseph Forshaw, in Parrots of the World, mentions in a discussion of their natural diet, “They are particularly fond of fruits of the red oil palm (Elaeis guinensis).” According to aviculturist David Poole, these fruits contain 90% oil and are available throughout the year. We also see that, in captivity, African Greys appear to be better able to cope with slightly higher levels of fat in the diet than most parrots and in fact, such levels appear to be beneficial.

 

There are numerous anecdotal reports that Greys who feather pick have been cured of the problem when extra fats were included in their diet. This was true of one of my own Greys, Sister Woman. Signs of fatty acid deficiency in humans include dry skin, cracked nails, dry lifeless hair; I believe that the Greys that we see with dry skin and feathers, or cracking and peeling beaks are exhibiting similar symptoms. This leads us to the question of whether we might wisely and intentionally include more fat in an African Grey’s diet, and if so…how?

 

In answering that question, we must recognize that not all fats are “created equal.” A complete explanation of the differences between saturated and unsaturated fats, as well as a full definition of essential fatty acids, are not within the scope of this article. However, the following is pertinent to our discussion.

 

Unsaturated and naturally occurring oils are rich in nutrients called “essential fatty acids,” specifically the omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids. They are called “essential” fatty acids because they are essential for normal growth and development, and they can not be manufactured by the body, as other fats can. They must come from the diet. If we look at the role these EFAs have in the diet, we are astounded. They are involved in many, many biological processes. Essential fatty acids are critically important in maintaining brain function, a strong immune system, and good eyesight, among other things. What interests me most, however, is the fact that essential fatty acids are vital for the healthy functioning of the nervous system.

 

The brain is largely made up of fat - not the kind that you store on your thighs, but “structural” fat, the kind that forms cell membranes and plays a vital role in how cells function. Neurons, the cells that transmit chemical messages are unusually rich in omega-3 fatty acids. The latter is an important fact, which the following will illustrate.

 

One of the first animal studies demonstrating a link between fat and intelligence was published in 1975.[ii] In this experiment, one group of rats was raised on a safflower oil diet, which is very high in omega-6 fatty acids but has only trace amounts of omega-3 fatty acids. A second group of rats was raised on a diet that contained an appreciable amount of LNA (the omega-3 essential fat). When tested in a simple maze, the rats raised on safflower oil made the right choice only 60% of the time, compared with a 90% success rate for rats whose diets contained an adequate amount of omega-3 fatty acids. Other studies have shown similar results.

 

Further, it has been shown that omega-3 fatty acids help humans learn and remember. Human breast milk contains DHA (an omega-3 fatty acid), but infant formulas do not. Studies have documented that breast-fed babies have better visual acuity and scored higher on many tests designed to measure learning.[iii] In short, there have been ample studies with both animals and humans that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that those provided with a good blend of essential fatty acids in the diet were capable of better learning and were happier with improved mental state. I must wonder if the behavioral problems encountered among African Greys, including phobia and feather picking, might not frequently be at least a partial result of inadequate fatty acid levels in the diet.

 

Given this, coupled with the fact that Greys evolved to enjoy optimal health eating a diet high in palm oil, as well as native plants, in their native habitat, I do believe we should examine the wisdom of making sure that Greys get an adequate amount of fat, specifically essential fatty acids, in their captive diets. I believe it of no coincidence that the Greys I encounter who seem not to feel very well often are eating a 100% pelleted diet, usually a chemically-dyed, extruded pellet.

 

According to Simopoulos, “If you foraged your food from the wild, it would be impossible to be deficient in this nutrient because it would be present in virtually everything you ate.”[iv] The author is referring to the plant-based form of omega-3 fatty acids – LNA. The omega-3 fatty acids are easily destroyed by light, air, and heat. Pellets therefore are exceptionally poor sources of these nutrients.

 

If we look at the need to insure that the diet of domestic Greys contains adequate levels of some sort of fat or oil, we have to go back to the assertion that all fats are not created equal. I have had it suggested to me that we should use palm oil for this purpose of supplementation, since it is closest to what Greys eat in the wild. However, I remain unconvinced, although I think that occasional supplementation with this product could be beneficial due to its high vitamin A content. However, palm oil is largely saturated fat, as are most vegetable fats grown near equatorial regions. Wild parrots that are engaged in strenuous daily flying exercise would easily metabolize this type of saturated fat. However, in looking at ways to supplement our domestic Greys, we must recognize the very different, sedentary lifestyle they now have.

 

Perhaps our own species can serve as an example here. Whereas man once ate the saturated fat of the animals he killed without adverse effect on his health because of the physically challenging existence he led, he now flirts with the probability of death from heart disease if eating a diet high in saturated fat. Thus, for the moment, I prefer to supplement my Greys with unsaturated fats high in essential fatty acids. Seeds are a natural source of oils and essential fatty acids, but should be limited to about 10% of the diet I think, because of the poor calcium/phosphorus ratio they contain, as well as the lack of other important nutrients.

 

I think the best solution lies with the provision of abundant fresh vegetables, some nuts and seeds, and very small amounts of a high quality oil blend, the sort sold as a nutritional supplement in health food stores. Found in the refrigerator section of the health food store, these products usually contain some blend of oils such as flax seed oil, borage oil, pumpkin seed oil, evening primrose oil, etc. Commonly found brands include Udo’s Perfected Oil Blend, Spectrum Essentials, and Arrowhead Mills. An appropriate “dose” for supplementation with such an oil blend would be between two and six drops per day. This can be put on a piece of toast or other absorbent bread or treat.

 

The data comes from Holistic Birds:

 

The Study -

 

These are the results of an approximately two-month study done on seven African Greys. The study was not performed over a long enough period or with enough birds of various species to be treated as authoritative, but it does present some interesting findings. However, what may be applicable to high-fat consuming species like the African grey would not necessarily be applicable to a species that is sensitive to excess lipids. Use this information with caution with other species.

 

The Parrots -

 

Four of the Greys were Congos, and three were Timnehs. All were in good health at the time the study commenced and weighed between 250 and 450 grams. All of the birds were on healthy, varied diets including various combinations of pellets, seeds, nuts, and fresh foods.

 

None showed any nutritional deficiencies or feather abnormalities during the study, although one had previously presented with a calcium deficiency.

 

The average age of the birds was 4.36 years, with the youngest bird being 1.5 years and the oldest being 10 years. Five of the birds lived in multi-bird households.

 

Out of the seven birds that were offered the oil, five took to it readily, one would only take it in oatmeal, and the last (the youngest participating bird) would only take it occasionally and from a syringe. All four Congos took to it readily, with the reluctant birds being bothTimnehs, ages 1.5 and 6 years.

 

The most successful method of administration, used by all six who were able to consistently feed the oil, was mixed in soft foods like mash, veggies, and bread. The average dosage, from limited feedback on this topic, was ¼ teaspoon every other day.

 

All six birds that were given the oil on a regular basis showed physical improvement at the conclusion of the trial period (two months for four and 1 year for the remaining two). These numbers overlap considerably.

 

* Five birds showed smoother beaks/feet.

* Five birds showed improved color.

* Four of the birds showed less dry/softer skin.

* Three of the birds were less dusty, and

* One showed less scratching.

 

These things could simply result from the higher fat content in the diet, or they could be a reflection of the high level of carotenes, Vitamin E, and co-enzyme Q10 present in the oil. All owners involved in the study said that they would continue to use the oil in the future.

 

Red Palm Oil has many valuable uses for the bird in need of a diet that is higher in fat or improved feather quality. It may have some interesting applications for pluckers.

Ryker

timneh

pretty boy jo

 

For more information on the study, you may join the Yahoo! eGroup entitled Red_Palm_Oil to speak directly with the people involved with the study or you may e-mail me at Jawzmyster@msn.com with specific questions or to request a complete copy of the results. If you would like more information on Red Palm Oil, I would be happy to respond to questions sent to the above e-mail address to the best of my knowledge or I can provide some helpful links.

Addendum

 

Just after the above article was submitted, I received some fairly dramatic results from the only cockatoo to participate in our study. This bird was an 11 year old Moluccan and a confirmed plucker and screamer. He took the oil as well as the greys, also usually in oatmeal.

 

He began the Red Palm Oil at the same time as he began taking a course of oral antibiotics and wearing an Elizabethan collar. In two months, his feather quality and the condition of his beak have improved, and he has regained most of the feathers on his chest. The regrowth of feathers may be due mostly to the collar, but his owner feels that the former improvements are most likely the result of the palm oil.

 

She will continue to use it, adjusting his diet to compensate for the additional fat (at the advice of her veterinarian).