Worlds First "RED" Grey

[AbbysDaddy]

Redafricangrey.com

 

This would be so amazing to have a red Grey ... I would pay $15,000 for that bird its so beautiful I hope it lives well off I havent found anything else on it.

 

Post edited by: AbbysDaddy, at: 2010/01/10 20:31<br><br>Post edited by: AbbysDaddy, at: 2010/01/10 20:32

[ecodweeb]

I'm really mixed on breeding designer pets of any species.

[Lambert58]

"red" greys are generally the product of focused breeding, which I loathe. These birds aren't supposed to be "red" and breeders that breed (inbreed) just to get a color should be taken out and shot.

[pearllyn]

I don't like designer pets at all - Mother Nature is pretty good at her job - besides, all my pets are perfect just the way they are!

 

He is a beautiful baby, no doubt though. Hope he gets a good family life where he can be loved like any other pet deserves, and not a life where he will be prodded and poked because he's different.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbvsaemHBHk

[AbbysDaddy]

Well on this note I must say that in nature the odds might be 1:700 million or 1 in a billion but it is possible for this bird to come about on its own .... they are just taking select birds that have natural mutations and breeding them and from what I gathered there was no inbreeding in this case the bird is a genuine natural mutation. I think she is beautiful and would love one just as much as I do Abby.

[AbbysDaddy]

I also have a Chiweenie whos name is Wally lol and he I found out is a "designer" pet but I love him all the same we got him as a rescue for free at 10 weeks old that is the sad thin a rescue at that young of an age!!!!!

[pearllyn]

AbbysDaddy wrote:

I also have a Chiweenie whos name is Wally lol and he I found out is a "designer" pet but I love him all the same we got him as a rescue for free at 10 weeks old that is the sad thin a rescue at that young of an age!!!!!

 

Oh my goodness Chiweenie's are soooo cute - I'd rescue one in a heartbeat!! I can't believe something so young and gorgeous should need rescuing!

 

I just meant I don't like the real designer breeding - or inbreeding, like dogs with flat faces for showing, or cats with shorter legs to make them (suposably) cuter!

[Mistyparrot]

Just curious but with ears that big can he fly?

Just imagine a Chiweenie Grey cross !! On second thoughts perhaps not !!:ohmy:

 

Steve n Misty<br><br>Post edited by: Mistyparrot, at: 2010/01/11 12:40

[ecodweeb]

I know it was a mutation that could/would have occurred on its own.

 

I would like to see intelligence studies of this particular 'cultivated subspecies' and compare it to what we know about the average grey.

 

mainly, i expect them to have some kind of health problem or shorter life expectancy but I might be off kilter.

[Dave007]

""""""they are just taking select birds that have natural mutations and breeding them and from what I gathered there was no inbreeding in this case the bird is a genuine natural mutation.""""""

 

Absolutely wrong. Any and all greys that have any extra red feathering in areas other than the tail simply have that red because of an excess of the genes that produce color. There's greys that have that color when they're babies and many times, after the first major molt they lose those feathers permanently. Other greys have that overproductive red gene which remains forever and it has nothing to do with mutation.

The bird becomes a mutation if the red genes are artifically enhanced and are made to produce and increase more red feathers. Only a manipulator can do that. It can't happen in the wild.

That man went through many pairs of greys slowly increasing the red genes. Pictures of the many pairs as they grew more red feathers can be seen at other sites. Many greys didn't grow the red feathers in the right places. Many of those partially and unevenly red birds are now for sale.

There's loads and loads of naturally beautiful parrots of all species in this world and besides personality that's where the focus should be.

That guy is just another person who's thinking about money and what he's doing is simply going against nature and as most people know, the types of animals that shouldn't be messed with as far as changing goes are wild animals and all parrots are wild animals and will be wild animals no matter how long they're owned by human beings. The guy wasn't thinking about nature when he was doing that.

[particle77]

Dave, AbbysDad is actually basically correct. Mutation's can and do occur naturally. In this case the mutated Alleles responsible appear to have already been present naturally, and the breeder bred several generations of birds with these mutated Alleles to obtain a bird that received these mutated Alleles from both parents. This is also how natural selection works, and it shows us that if there was an advantage to being red, African Grey's as a species could easily adapt to exploit that advantage. The difference here is that the advantage to being red is artificial.

 

In any event all captive bred species have artificial environmental pressures shaping them, whether the person doing the breeding is aware of it and planning for an outcome or not, because even at the most basic level accidents can occur, and animals that learn to cope with the artificial environment they are bred in are more likely to produce more offspring. This is how domestication slowly occurs, and for this reason wild animals being bred in captivity are always on the road to domestication unless they are being released to continue to breed in the wild before too many generations go by. In fact there is not complete agreement on what constitutes a domestic animal, and some definitions would already encompass our Greys.

 

I do agree that morally breeders should not purposely engage in inbreeding or force any breeding that is known to result in high rates of mortality, birth defects, or in general results in unhealthy animals. However I believe that is a separate issue from selective breeding, and I haven't seen any evidence of that taking place with this breeder(not saying it didn't, just don't have any reason to think it did.)

[Dave007]

""""In fact there is not complete agreement on what constitutes a domestic animal, and some definitions would already encompass our Greys.""""

 

 

Unlike the family dog or cat, parrots ( greys as well as other species of parrots) are not domesticated creatures. It takes thousands of generations of breeding to domesticate an animal, and parrots are, at most, only two generations removed from their wild ancestors. This means that our domestically bred greys still have their wild instincts in-tact which is why a parrot who accidentally escapes from a house can't be given any command to return even if it's spotted nearby.

We as the owners of parrots, can't domesticate them. We can only make them dependent on us and the way they react to that dependence fools many people into thinking that they're probably domesticated.

[kittykittykitty]

Selective breeding can backfire as has happened to many domestic animals.

[judygram]

Like Dave said there are many many naturally beautiful parrots out there, why do some people want to create something unnatural.

[particle77]

Dave007 wrote:

Unlike the family dog or cat, parrots ( greys as well as other species of parrots) are not domesticated creatures.

 

As I said, there is not complete agreement on what constitutes a domestic animal.

 

By some definitions Grey's would be considered domesticated, others would consider them semi-domesticated.

 

Dogs are as far as I know universally accepted as domesticated. Cats are widely accepted as domesticated, but this is disputed by some. Budgies and lovebirds are also widely considered domesticated, and are sometimes referred to as the only domesticated parrots, but all of this depends on who's standard of domestication you choose.

 

Dave007 wrote:

This means that our domestically bred greys still have their wild instincts in-tact which is why a parrot who accidentally escapes from a house can't be given any command to return even if it's spotted nearby.

 

I would also note that parrots that have been trained to return on command, can and do return when they escape. However even wild animals can be tamed and trained to do all manner of things, so this is really a moot point.

 

Dave007 wrote:

We as the owners of parrots, can't domesticate them. We can only make them dependent on us and the way they react to that dependence fools many people into thinking that they're probably domesticated.

 

domestication isn't something you do with an individual animal, the proper term in that situation is tame. domestication occurs in a group of animals as they are bred by humans.

[particle77]

kittykittykitty wrote:

Selective breeding can backfire as has happened to many domestic animals.

 

I agree entirely, particularly when two small a population is used.

[JillyBeanz]

This parrot took 9 generations before it "mutated". Call it what you want - but at the end of the day it's for an experiment, enjoyment and self indulgence by the fool who thought it was a good idea. It doesn't save lives, hasn't discovered any vaccines towards parrot diseas and in fact, hasn't done anything but produce a parrot which is different to the rest of its species.

 

Next thing is - will it be accepted into its flock - I wouldn't have thought so!

 

Yes it's pretty, yes it looks good - but how many chicks/older birds died in order that this designer handbag could be produced? What happened to the "cast offs" that didn't make the shade? (grade)!

 

Bottom line - It has no use - it has no purpose!!

[ecodweeb]

To throw my 2 cents into the domestication talk:

 

to me a domesticated grey, fully domesticated, would be one that when bonded with a mate wouldn't exclude a human from their intimate flock.

 

The videos I have seen of the red breeding pairs, the humans just pick up mom or baby, from the shared family perch in the cage, no problem.

 

From what I've gathered by breeders traditional pairs will be vicious if you attempted this.

 

I dare say that as far as domestication -- fully accepting of humans --- the red greys are as domestic as they can come.

[danmcq]

I do not agree with selective breeding, but it has taken place for thousands of years and it will never stop.

 

The term "Domesticate" has several meanings to different people.

 

I can only think of an example posed in the form of a question:

 

If Dogs are "Domesticated", why in one generation they become "Feral" and hunt in packs and stay away from humans, just as they did in the beginning thousands of years ago?

 

Second question: If we consider Dogs as an example. Why is it, their natural instincts kick in at times to attack and kill other species such as cats, rodents, birds etc? They are considered "Domesticated", right?

 

It seems to me the word "Domesticated" is more of each individuals understanding based on life experiences, rather than a set in stone definition.

 

It seems everyone understand the word "Tamed" though. So if we use that term, any critter you can interact with at some slight personal level is tamed to varying degrees..even tigers and lions.

 

But, the still have wild instincts.

 

I do not believe the instincts all critters have could ever be bred out of them. They each have their individual species characteristics and those will never change. Domesticated or wild.

 

I consider my Grey and Conure "Tamed" as a clearer definition. They both still have ALL thier wild instincts intact.

[particle77]

ecodweeb wrote:

To throw my 2 cents into the domestication talk:

 

to me a domesticated grey, fully domesticated, would be one that when bonded with a mate wouldn't exclude a human from their intimate flock.

 

 

just to continue to muddy the waters... The Fort Worth Zoo recently demonstrated that with positive reinforcement training, its possible to continue to work with and train breeding King Vultures. Not only did these king vultures allow zoo staff to continue to interact with them during this time(including holding still unrestrained, while zoo staff took blood samples), but they allowed the zoo staff to work with and train the babies also.

 

Based on those results I have no doubt that the same is possible with Greys.

 

However, I think it could be argued that this is a measure of tameness, not domestication.

[particle77]

Dan, thanks for making some great points. Feral populations are definitely another subject that further confuses the meaning of domesticated.

 

I agree that tame is a much clearer term.

[ecodweeb]

Tame != domesticated, but what does domesticated really mean if not tame? Inability to survive in the wild? If that were true cats aren't really domesticated as they are the fastest of any species to return to feral nature when left to their own devices.

 

(Looking forward to the replies, I enjoy the many viewpoints of this forum on topics like these)<br><br>Post edited by: ecodweeb, at: 2010/01/12 15:52

[particle77]

JillyBeanz wrote:

This parrot took 9 generations before it "mutated".

 

In your view, Is this too many? or not enough? Taking more generations avoids many health problems, by ensuring a large enough base population.

 

JillyBeanz wrote:

Next thing is - will it be accepted into its flock - I wouldn't have thought so!

 

I'd expect it would be treated much the same as an albino. I doubt a captive flock would be concerned.

 

JillyBeanz wrote:

Yes it's pretty, yes it looks good

 

I don't really agree, but thats my personal preference.

 

JillyBeanz wrote:

- but how many chicks/older birds died in order that this designer handbag could be produced? What happened to the "cast offs" that didn't make the shade? (grade)!

 

All of this depends on the practices of the breeder. selective breeding is exactly the same process that happens in the wild. The only difference is that humans are manipulating what environmental traits are successful, as such its certainly possible to run a selective breeding program without producing sickly animals.

 

Large scale commercial breeding of any animal frequently results in a less than ideal situation for the animals, that is not specific to selective breeding though.

 

 

 

Post edited by: particle77, at: 2010/01/12 15:52<br><br>Post edited by: particle77, at: 2010/01/12 16:17

[particle77]

ecodweeb wrote:

Tame != domesticated, but what does domesticated really mean if not tame? Inability to survive in the wild? If that were true cats aren't really domesticated as they are the fastest of any species to return to feral nature when left to their own devices.

 

(Looking forward to the replies, I enjoy the many viewpoints of this forum on topics like these)<br><br>Post edited by: ecodweeb, at: 2010/01/12 15:52

 

I think Dan hit the nail on the head. People bring there own preconceptions about what is or isn't a domesticated animal when they try to define the term, and end up creating rules that often unintentionally include or exclude animals.

 

Domestication could probably best be described in degrees, rather than a static yes or no. However currently the term is ambiguous.

[AbbysDaddy]

" All of this depends on the practices of the breeder. selective breeding is exactly the same process that happens in the wild. The only difference is that humans are manipulating what environmental traits are successful, as such its certainly possible to run a selective breeding program without producing sickly animals. "

 

That is a good point ... no actual gene manipulation was done by humans just picking which bird was the best looking basically lol it would be like only good looking people repopulating the world ... the government is going to tell you who you have to marry from now on lol !