Ana Grey's Red Tail Feathers

[Luvparrots]

Does anyone else's Timneh have red in the tail feathers. Ana Grey's breeder and I keep in touch and she has asked me if Ana Grey has red in her tail, apparently sometimes this happens with her babies but she was curious to know if they retain them. Well Ana Grey's are redder now since she molted out all but the one of the left hand side. So do other Timneh's do this too??? Or is this just the maroon they talk about??

[pearllyn]

Goodness Janet - you learn something eery day! I thought all Timnehs had the dark red tail! She's beautiful whatever colour her tail!!

[particle77]

Definitely redder than the other Timnehs that I've seen. CAGs and TAGs are still one species though so it stands to reason that just as there is overlap in size for the two subspecies the tail color could also vary. Ana Grey may even have a CAG somewhere not too far up her family tree.

[Dave007]

There's constant color variations in TAG tail color. Feathers will molt out and sometimes they're replaced with marroon feathers that favor the red side. When these newer tail feathers die out the next set could be darker (or not). The red feather above is laced with ash gray coloring throughout. The major area where it can be seen is on the tip of the feather. More than likely, before those tail feathers die out, they'll get more ashen looking. This happens to many TAGs. There's TAGs that also have dark gray tail feathers( same color as the breast).

More than likely, there were other TAGs in her past that had the same thing but none of that red/marroon/ash color has anything to do with a CAG. It all has to do with pigmentation.

[particle77]

Dave007 wrote:

but none of that red/marroon/ash color has anything to do with a CAG.

 

Out of curiosity how can you be sure of this?

 

For example:

 

Even if wild CAGs and TAGs never interbreed now, they must have at one time. Perhaps some of the genes for a bright red tail were then introduced into the Timneh population from such a pairing.

[Luvparrots]

Thank you Dr. Flock for your abundance of information about our greys. :kiss:

[Dave007]

""""""Out of curiosity how can you be sure of this?

 

For example:

 

Even if wild CAGs and TAGs never interbreed now, they must have at one time. Perhaps some of the genes for a bright red tail were then introduced into the Timneh population from such a pairing."""""""

======================================================

The easiest place for different but related birds to interbreed is in the wild. It's their choice. Nature will dictate if it can be done. TAGs are a sub species of CAGs. That classification doesn't mean that one came from the other. They're 2 types of greys. Size is totally different. Personality is different. Agility is different. They don't cohabitate with each other in the wild. They're not even close by to each other.

The hardest place for those same 2 types of birds to breed is in captivity. That can only be done artifically and 99% of the time it's a failure.

If at one time they interbred that would still be possible for that to happen today. After all, they were were TAGS back then and there were CAGs back then.

In the world of the CAG, there's variations of color because of genes. It also has to do with color. The color that's affected is the red color. An excess of color can be seen on greys because of an over abundance of red genes which is passed to another generation of relatives of that particular CAG. That excess of color has nothing to do with TAGs.

Different variations of color in CAGs comes from CAGS.

Different variations of color in TAGs comes from TAGs, specifically in the tail area.

 

By the way, if TAGs actually got that different color trait from CAGs in the past, How come there's no different color trait in CAGs who you say supposedly interbred at one time?

[Greywings]

I am in agreement with Dr. Flock on this one. they can change as the birds mature and with the available diet.

[JillyBeanz]

That is so cute Janet - you've got the best of both worlds! The cute little grey with the red tail. Bless Ana Grey - she's beautiful

[particle77]

first, I want to clarify that I'm not saying the example that I gave is accurate, I'm just indicating that its possible, and that it would take genetic analysis, to prove one way or the other.

 

I was only taking issue with the definitive no that you gave regarding the possability that genes for tails with more red in them may have been introduced to TAGs from interbreeding in the past with CAGs.

 

They are a subspecies, which means that they should still be capable of interbreeding in the wild, and that they share a common ancestry(its possible that they have diverged to the point where this isn't really possible, and just weren't classified as seperate species, just as some species that are still capable of interbreeding are classified as seperate). This means interbreeding would have been more common in the past, and would have become less common over time, as the two groups diverged.

 

The genes for the red tail may have been present in the common ancestors of all CAGs/TAGs, and just selective bred out of TAGs over many generations of evolution to the point were they are fairly uncommon, in which case your assertion that its unrelated to any CAG ancestry would be correct. but I believe the scenario I posited is also possible. If there were any studies providing evidence one way or the other I'd be interested in reading it.

 

On a side note Greywing is definitely correct that diet can also impact feather color(in particular access to caratinoids will increase red pigmentation), but I was more interested in the genetic component.

[ecodweeb]

Seeing as how in 9 years of selective breeding we've gotten an albino all-red grey with white feet, beak and tongue... I don't think it's crazy to think that perhaps these two at one time did perhaps mate.

 

I consider then two different skin colors to the same creature. I've not seen any studies that show TAGs are less or more intelligent than CAGs. I don't think we need to even bother, I think they're just as capable.

 

To me I see the TAG as being a black man and the CAG as being a white man, they're both human and they both have the same mental capability, physically however they do differ because of genetics and selective breeding.

 

Or I could be off base entirely with how I view it. Just sharing my opinion on the discussion.

 

 

Alex had a red neck feather which makes me believe he had the "King Grey" gene that was selective bred to get the red bellied and then the solid red AG...

 

 

www.redafricangrey.com

[danmcq]

I think there are a lot of things going on in the "Mix". They have proven that carotenoids can play a role in the coloring, as already stated.

 

However, I believe the bulk of the "Red Factor" is genetics. The flock Dayo came from and the other flock he grew up with from different mates all had red factor in varying degrees. Dayo had a few near his rump and all those molted out, except one that came back in red right over his preen gland. The other chicks, with one in particular having at least 50 % of breast feathers red. Also molted out almost all the red on first molt.

 

Selective breeding has been done and resulted in the "Red" African Greys. However, in questioning the breeder what the long term health issues may be in carefully controlling the gene pool would have. He had no definitive answer yet due to them all being fairly young, considering their decades long normal life span.

 

This "Red" stray gene floating around is probably common in both Cags and Tags.

 

However, I agree with Dave. That the two species do not "Mix" in the natural world according to observances of the two species.

 

It may be akin to polar bears breeding with grizzlies. It has only occurred once and that was just in the last few years. Scientists believe that occurred to the lack of food, dwindling polar bear numbers and food supply. Then add one lonely and lost grizzly to t he mix and BAM, it happened. The sad part of this story though. Is a hunter shot and made a trophy out of the only one known to exist, that could have been a bridge between species that would help the polar bears survive the melting ice pack and food shortage.

 

The same MAY happen very rarely in the wild. Who Knows?

 

But, when you have breeders in the mix trying different things to create a "Special" breed. It is hard to know what gene may be floating around in some of the Greys including both Cags and Tags.<br><br>Post edited by: danmcq, at: 2009/12/11 20:48

[particle77]

Dan, thanks for adding to the discussion.

 

The polar bear info you provided is interesting to consider. I've read that some scientist now feal that polar bears should be classified as a subspecies of black bears(Grizzly bears already a a subspecies of black bears)

 

an interesting article I found on Grizzly and Polar bears: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/arctic-bears/how-grizzlies-evolved-into-polar-bears/777/

[JJsGrey]

Ana Gray has a very pretty tail for a tag.

[Luvparrots]

Well thanks for the comments guys!!!

[danmcq]

P77 - Thanks for the link. It was an interesting read. :-)