Alex and Dr. Pepperberg

[JungleDreamz]

I have the read the book, twice...And I am not saying she is all bad...She has done wonderful things. And it was nice that he was never alone. BUT I bet he missed her when she was away. And I feel bad for him...Just like a 5 year old that gets left with a sitter or grandma or aunt, or whatever, They still miss thier main caregiver. BUT at least they were not left a lone or neglected. So it can really go 2 ways, It has its goods and not so goods. Just like everything in the world...And we all have our own views, and thats ok because thats what makes the worl go around. So I am not trying to sway anyone to think how I do or feel how I do, I am just sharing with everyone my thoughts on the matter.

 

And I do understand what you are saying too dave, About the "wanting to go back" I guess that too is another way to look at it. I do have to say though eating your veggies and going to school was more important for you in your growing then sitting and answering questions over and over like alex...AND ONCE AGAIN, I kinda ride the fence on this one, Cuz she has done very good things, and I respect her a lot for what she has done and for spending so many years making uneduacated people that think animals are stupid rethink and be like "wow, I guess they are not so dumb after all" Nothing bothers me more than people that dont have respect for animals and thier ability to learn and understand, and that devalue there life just cuz they arnt human.

 

So anyway...Thats how I feel I can say too, When I was 4 or 5, my mom and dad would video redord me ALL THE TIME, asking me to sing this song or that song, And I have watched them back as an adult, and I feel bad for little me, I just wanted to play, Not preform at the moment. BUT I dont think my parents were bad or anything, That was just a little unneccasary to do it a couple times a day. But I was well cared for a loved. So that can be kind of likened in a small way to having Alex preform all the time. When all he wants to do is play or be left alone at the moment. But he was well cared for and it benifitted the world in some ways. Me singing did not, lol But hopefully you know what I am trying to say, haha

 

OK, So I'm done on my rant haha

[Dave007]

JungleDreamz

 

You singing? Oh man, I remember hearing you sing way back when we were young. Those were experiences that a person doesn't normally forget and as I think back, I know why you don't sing anymore. If it was me making the decision, I definitely would have let you go out and play. After all, the house needed a little peace and quiet.

=================================================================

 

All joking aside and not to beat a dead horse---partial opinion and actual facts. I've already spoken about videos being released. That's a fact.

Maybe people will be interested or maybe no one will be interested in what I write here.

What I said about forming a personal bond with another person in that lab--- I said that Alex had a bond with everyone, not just her. That's the way it was supposed to be. It started when he was very young. Problems never occurred by doing that.

What a parrot ( any parrot) doesn't know about things that exist will never hurt that parrot. The way it is is the way it is as far as that parrot goes. Private owners of greys and other parrots are the ones that work on personalized one on one relationships with their bird and very often many of those people realize that by not socializing that bird into the whole family from the very beginning, problems eventually occurred. It comes up on this board and other boards countless times.

*my bird only likes me and hates my husband or my wife or my child. Please help!!:confused:* Over the years, just give me a dime every time I've heard that and I'd be rich.

Alex was socialized into the whole group of people there.

 

I read that link above and the way it's worded, there's obviously nothing there that a person could get sued over. I've already seen a couple of stories come out concerning what went on there. All after the fact. People can say anything about anything and as long as it's worded correctly, legal actions won't occur. To me, it holds little weight. There is no proof positive. No one knows about their motives.

I'll give another example--Michael Jackson had to see a skin specialist because of a disorder called Vitiligo. I'm very familiar with that disorder because my sister in law has that disorder. I saw it develop and it was obvious to me about what was going on. I saw on MJ throughot the years. It starts out small and as years go by it eventually spreads throughout the skin.

Well, there was a technition that worked with that specialist and came out of the woodwork and decided to reveal to the world that during the last 1 1/2 of MJ's life, he was MJ's lover. Of course, by this time, MJ was dead. The whole thing lasted about 3 mts and the guy disapppeared. Just another person who saw the chance to get his 15 minutes of fame.

Back to Alex and other greys who are being worked with.

Training-----This a fact. There's a few ways to teach a grey how to talk. One is by association throughout the day. The bird sees things that are going on, hears others say or do things concerning what's going on and repeats what it heard or saw when it actually happens.

Another way to teach a bird how to talk is by direct face to face repititation of words whether they refer or not to anything. It's up to the person concerning how to do it.

When a person uses the latter method, a grey ( especially a grey) will at first show great interest and then lose interest in what's going on in about 10 to 20 minutes and they will show obvious body language. It's a clue for the person to stop. The bird doesn't get aggressive. He simply turns around and walks away. Sometimes, he yawns.

So, does anyone really know what the training regimen was for Alex?

Other birds and people's personal relationship to a bird--

I'm sure that countless people have seen that tall, thin woman who has appeared on several late night entertainment shows with a grey called Einstein. The bird does everything by association and does it well. A personal tie to that person? She doesn't even own that bird. She's also appeared on the same type of shows with an amazon that performs other types of things by association and does it well. She also doesn't own that bird. She's a professional bird handler.

Who can we thank for our deep more informative knowledge concerning chimpanzees?

Dr Jane Goodall spent 20 yrs living with them making sure that very personal ties to most of those chimps didn't develop. She wasn't alone. At the least there was a cameraman there. That's how complete information was gotten. But in the end, she too felt sadness that a few died for different reasons. She knew them well. They knew her well.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Dave007

[danmcq]

Great responses and thougths Dave. I agree with your statements 100%.

 

IMO - Alex was loved and treated not only as a loved child, but as the rock star that shock the world with the cognitive abilities unproven until who? Dr. Peppeberg and Alex for 31 years. It were not for those two, people would still scoff at the thought of a "Bird Brain" having such complex and verified thought processions that they determined it to have the intelligence of a 5 year old child and at times Alex proved smarter than actuall 5 year olds in real life testing.

 

IMO - If Alex was mistreated, he would have been one mean nasty biting grey and I never saw thatside nor was it ever reported. We all know how tempermental they are and if you cross them or burned them too often, you are a bite target any time your close.

 

I envy the attention and life Alex had and spent more out of cage time and was exposed to new experiences and people than our greys ever will.

[Ozzysmom]

I watched some videos and liked what I saw I think she loved him a lot. its like school he is in and I saw on two videos that he asked to go back and she let him. He seemed happy to me. I enjoyed the videos.

[JungleDreamz]

Like I said I agree that he wasnt mistreated and that she did wonderful things in getting people to understand animals have cognitive ability. Or as you said dan and as she says in her book "the bird brain theory" I understand that if it wasnt for her, This wouldnt of happened, Or it still might have, just with someone else and thier Bird.

 

BUT I will never treat my child like Alex was. I am saying this in respose to dan saying he was loved and treated as a child. I would never leave my child alone everynight, or leave it with other people for months on end. I wouldnt even do this with my animals. And as far as Dave saying What he didnt know wont hurt them, or however you worded it, That is true. And I understand that. And there was no harm done to Alex. I understand that too, And I also believe his death had no relation to how he was treated.But personally knowing what I know, I would feel guilty doing this to my animal, Parrot, Child, or Whatever. Because I know they would be happier with more stabilty in thier lives. Even though they are happy with the way they are being treated, And I am not saying Alex wasnt happy, he no doubt was.

 

So Again, We are all entitled to our own EDUCATED opinions, I say educated, cuz if you dont do research and you just say, Oh I think they did this or that wrong, Then thats stupid. But If you have done your research and come to your own conclusion...Then that should be OK. And no one should be looked down on for the way they feel. And I know all of us here HAVE done our research, Read the books, Watched the videos...ect, And so we all are allowed to feel whichever way we want and be unbyast. So I hope none of you are mad at me or the others that feel this way.

[Ozzysmom]

I agree that being alone at night in a lab could be scary or lonely Too bad she couldn't take him home every night.

[Dave007]

Who's mad at you? Who's looking down at you? I know it wasn't me. It was the singing that got to me. It left a lasting impression. Mom and dad should have said that the batteries in the camera were exhausted and then said that you should go out and play.

[Elvenking]

I'm out .

 

I could not see how my original post would blow up...but it did. I was coming from the veiw of a bird lover and 'all for the bird kind' of attitude. I can readily see that this subject parallels that of how we would raise our human children. we would want to see them cared for in a certain way and we would certainly not all agree on it. I am happy to say that the people of these forums care for their birds for the most part the way I would care for my bird. I also see that there are really not many people, if any, on this forum that would follow the methods that Dr. Pepperberg employed in their entirety as well. So that said, I hope I have established some common understanding of what is being debated here. I think i refined my understanding of it myself. We are all parronts. There is no 'right way' that I personally was trying to promote as gospel, just that...that is not how I would raise my fid....if you will.

 

Cheers all.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Elvenking

[Ozzysmom]

I'm out .

 

I can readily see that this subject parallels that of how we would raise our human children. we would want to see them cared for in a certain way and we would certainly not all agree on it. I am happy to say that the people of these forums care for their birds for the most part the way I would care for my bird. I also see that there are really not many people, if any, on this forum that would follow the methods that Dr. Pepperberg employed in their entirety as well. So that said, I hope I have established some common understanding of what is being debated here. I think i refined my understanding of it myself. We are all parronts. There is no 'right way' that I personally was trying to promote as gospel, just that...that is not how I would raise my fid....if you will.

 

Cheers all.

 

Agree! Good post

[lovethatgrey]

Alex was NOT purchased to be "a Pet" or to be "a companion" the way the most of our parrots have been brought into our homes. He was purchased to help with research.

 

Unlike other "creatures" who are used for research, Alex was NOT at all treated like a lab rat.

 

It was not easy to request or find continuous funding for this research either because very little was known about parrots and most did not take this type of research very seriously. Sometimes Dr. Pepperberg even used her own personal money to pay for Alex's needs because of a lack of funding. Occasionally, she did bring him home with her at night but this wasn't always convenient or practical. If you read the book Alex and Me.. it will all be explained. I gave my copy to another parrot owner so I am not able to reference it at the moment.

 

Also take note that Dr. Pepperberg started her research in the 70's, this was at a time that most women were not taken very seriously in the workforce. nevermind a highly educated one. She persevered with passion and determination. She stayed the course even though she could have easily received a much more prestigious position and a better paying job for her credentials. Not too mention, she probably would have had "less stubborn and more cooperative" people to work with. Apparently, Alex was extremely stubborn and got a great kick out of playing mind games and messing with the answers he'd give her. In spite of all this, she was very fond of him.

 

We are all entitled to our own opinions, but it shouldn't be based on "incomplete" or misinformation either. JMHO

Edited May 13, 2010 by lovethatgrey

[reggieroo]

I haven't read the book but have wanted too, so I have asked for a copy for my Birthday

[danmcq]

I do have to say though eating your veggies and going to school was more important for you in your growing then sitting and answering questions over and over like alex...AND ONCE AGAIN, I kinda ride the fence on this one,

 

One thought on this. I had to do all those things for 22 years, had to answer questions, cram and study until 2 am for those years, then got drafted after college and they told me I was a dog and dog dung during training... I would have kicked their asses if I wouldn't have been court martialled for it.

 

I think we humans as a society have similar treatment as well and no choice in the matter until we are entirely on our own and self sufficient. :-)

 

Just thought I would add a little humor and lightened this up a litttle. But, I still say boot camp sucked!!!!

Edited May 13, 2010 by danmcq

[JungleDreamz]

Well, Im out too, Everyone has very strong opinions here, and I dont want anyone to be upset with me, And I didnt say anyone WAS currently, I just dont want it to get that way.

 

And Emma's mama..."""""""We are all entitled to our own opinions, but it shouldn't be based on "incomplete" or misinformation either. JMHO"""" I agree with this...Its kinda like what I said, Here is what I said...

 

""""""""So Again, We are all entitled to our own EDUCATED opinions, I say educated, cuz if you dont do research and you just say, Oh I think they did this or that wrong, Then thats stupid. But If you have done your research and come to your own conclusion...Then that should be OK. And no one should be looked down on for the way they feel. And I know all of us here HAVE done our research, Read the books, Watched the videos...ect, And so we all are allowed to feel whichever way we want and be unbyast. """""""""""""""""""""" So I agree with you very strongly here...It wouldnt be right to come to your own conclusion if you had incomplete information. I do think that most of us have done our research.

 

But anyway, I am done stateting my opinions. I kind of feel like I shouldnt of in the first place. I am not one to be part of debates and it seems like this is what is has turned into.

 

So bye guys! :)