Alex and Dr. Pepperberg

[kevirose]

I visited Dr. Pepperberg yesterday at the Featherlust Bird shop. Her university contract was cut short and she will be unemployed as of this September. Any donations (even small ones) to

www.alexfoundation.org would be very much appreciated. Dr.

Pepperberg's research has opened many people's eyes to the intelligence of parrots, and it would be a shame to see her work end prematurely.

[kevirose]

My understanding is that most of her funding is through private donations via alexfoundation.org. I think she was also getting some funding through the university. She had a five year contract with them that they reneged on after two years! She will literally be unemployed as of this September. It's really a shame since just a five dollar donation from each person who owns an African Grey would keep her in business.

[Guest javacrypto]

Thanks . That is a relief to me that she can keep them...I sure hope another U "picks them up"!

[kevirose]

Alex, Griffin, and Wart thankfully belong to Dr. Pepperberg. My impression (opinion) is that Dr. Pepperberg is having trouble getting universities to take her work seriously.

[Guest javacrypto]

Will Alex stay with her or does he belong to the U?

[Elvenking]

I think it's amazing what she trained Alex to do, but I think the bird was heavily stressed. Watching him say that he want's to go back while she is drilling him for tasks seems a bit much. It makes me a bit sad. Sticking things in his face all day. Then not connecting with the bird emotionally. We may know about greys, but poor Alex in my opinion.

[esknomoe]

I feel the same way, Elv. I have read Dr. Pepperberg's book, and frankly it made me a bit sad. Alex passed away very prematurely, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were brought on by stress. Alex was a 30 year research project who was pushed to the extreme limits of his capabilities continually. I also feel that this may have been a contributing factor to his feather plucking. While we can all be grateful for the insights Dr. Pepperberg gave us into Grey intelligence and behavior, Alex was somewhat saccrificial in the process. JMHO.

[Jayd]

Here's a site that might interest some... http://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/02/pepperberg.aspx

You really need to meet the Dr. Jayd

Edited May 8, 2010 by Jayd

[crossfit]

Dr. Pepperberg also has a book out that is much more about the actual studies than her life with Alex. It is fascinating if you enjoy scholarly works as I do. It is called The Alex Studies. I learned an awful lot. I read it when I was in the amazon and also learned a lot about other studies on parrots both in the lab and in the wild and it was a perfect learning tool while I was also getting to see the parrots in their natural habitat. For example, did you know that Macaws have dialects? One group of Macaw's will have their own sounds unique to their small group but they will also speak two or three dialects of the other Macaw's in the groups near them.

[lovethatgrey]

Enjoyed the article JayD. Thanks for sharing. I have great respect for Dr. Pepperberg!

[Elvenking]

While there can be no doubt that a lot was learned from Alex, I also think it was the to the detriment of the bird. I far more value and emotional bond with animals and working towards an effort that makes life wonderful for them. It is respectful to know how cognicent they are...but I think beyond this...it doesn't need to be put to the test.

[JungleDreamz]

I agree Elven...I have nothing Against her, as I think she has done wonderful things, But I did feel very sorry for Alex...I think your right. I mean she would be gone from him for long periods of time and birds need structure, and it seemed like he was always in one place after another having differant students take care of him. And the "wanna go back" broke my heart!

 

But I mean i know he recieved wonderful care and everything, Good food and clean area ect.....Just that he was just drilled all the time and like I already said, with differant people all the time and away from his "owner" quite a bit. Thats Just my Honest opinion as well.

[Mistyparrot]

I think it's amazing what she trained Alex to do, but I think the bird was heavily stressed. Watching him say that he want's to go back while she is drilling him for tasks seems a bit much. It makes me a bit sad. Sticking things in his face all day. Then not connecting with the bird emotionally. We may know about greys, but poor Alex in my opinion.

 

You seem to be making the classic error that a snapshot is representative of typical behaviour. Dr Pepperberg had a very strong emotional bond with Alex and there is no way she would have caused him undue stress. Surely you must know that you cannot successfully teach a stressed Grey anything. there is no doubt that Irene loved Alex and took great care to ensure his welfare in all respects. She also regarded him as a valued colleague.

[Elvenking]

You seem to be making the classic error that a snapshot is representative of typical behaviour. Dr Pepperberg had a very strong emotional bond with Alex and there is no way she would have caused him undue stress. Surely you must know that you cannot successfully teach a stressed Grey anything. there is no doubt that Irene loved Alex and took great care to ensure his welfare in all respects. She also regarded him as a valued colleague.

 

Well we have differing opinions I suppose. Looks like a big experiment she was doing to me. I can tell you that if my bird actually had the ability to tell me that he wanted to go back to his cage, I would be kissing him and taking him back to where he was happy. Worse things have been done with birds, I simply do not share the experimentation aspect of the research, and it only proves what is already known, Grey's (as well as many other animals that cannot talk so well) are very cognisant of what goes on around them. Grey's just have the ability to convey this in English, making them extra remarkable.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Elvenking

[Mistyparrot]

Well we have differing opinions I suppose. Looks like a big experiment she was doing to me. I can tell you that if my bird actually had the ability to tell me that he wanted to go back to his cage, I would be kissing him and taking him back to where he was happy. Worse things have been done with birds, I simply do not share the experimentation aspect of the research, and it only proves what is already known, Grey's (as well as many other animals that cannot talk so well) are very cognicent of what goes on around them. Grey's just have the ability to convey this in English, making them extra remarkable.

 

Well yes of course it was a big experiment. That is how Alex came to be named Alex I think it was Avian Language (Learning?) Experiment. In the particular circumstances of the video in question Dr Pepperberg and Alex had to impress some big wigs to help get funding. The very fact that Alex used those words to express his desire must mean he had an expectation that his wish would be respected. This would be because under normal circumstances it would have been.

Dr Pepperberg did not routinely ignore Alex's requests or desires. How do you think he learned to say that in the first place? The kind of work that Dr Pepperberg is doing with Grey parrots is invaluable in promoting our understanding of these amazing beings and therefore helps to promote their better welfare as well as helping to develop cross species communication.

[Elvenking]

This is just a difference of view we have and it won't get solved. All I can say as that I would rather see a Grey just be a Grey rather than seek his full potential for the benefit of others. I mean, we are not going to teach them to go to the moon or anything and the experiment merely serves to teach the lesser of the human species that yes...animals do think too. I am of the group of people who already have known this without having to have it explicitly proven through science and experimentation, there is already enough evidence in just interacting with animals to know that they are all quite intelligent and have desires and feelings. Even in animals that will forever be unable to talk to us, you can see desires, requests, and emotion. I am not coming at this from a 100% disapproval standpoint, I am just saying I don't share the vision into the value of proving it all if that makes sense.

[esknomoe]

Dr. Pepperberg herself mentioned in her book that it was her intention to maintain an emotional distance between herself and Alex. I got the impression that it was only upon Alex' untimely death that she realized the emotional bond she had with Alex.

[Dave007]

Alex was what you would call one of the most socialized parrots in captivity. We all widsh our greys were socialized as well as him.The bird was integrated with many people that worked with Dr P. She started that process when he was very young and she wasn't the only person that worked with the bird. There was approx 8 to 10 people with him all the time. He was handled by all and there were no problems. Many grey owners just wish their grey would like the husband or the wife or the kids. He got along with all of them. He never really had to focus on one particular person as the prime emotional caregiver. He could have been taken to seminars by a number of those people that were involved with him. Actually, the bird was more spoiled than most. He got everything he wanted. He was fed the best of everything. He was a bird that had a very stable, passive nature and was always willing to participate in different training regimens. That couldn't have happened with just any grey. She just happened to come across a bird that had that nature. He was never left alone. Many say that his small plucking problem was due to what went on throughout his life in that lab. Actually, it's documented that the bird was a chronic plucker from the age of 2 and the problem remained that way. Most chronic pluckers remain that way throughout their whole life. He wasn't made to suffer in that lab. If so, nothing would have succeeded with him.

He died at the age of 31 and the simple cause was hardening of the arteries. One day he was fine, the next day he was lying at the bottom of his cage. I can't tell you how many times I've seen that happen.

[Mistyparrot]

Dr. Pepperberg herself mentioned in her book that it was her intention to maintain an emotional distance between herself and Alex. I got the impression that it was only upon Alex' untimely death that she realized the emotional bond she had with Alex.

 

Yes she did say that but from my reading of the book "Alex and Me" it did not take her long to discover that that intention was futile. There is no doubt that Alex's death hit her hard.

[Mistyparrot]

This is just a difference of view we have and it won't get solved. All I can say as that I would rather see a Grey just be a Grey rather than seek his full potential for the benefit of others. I mean, we are not going to teach them to go to the moon or anything and the experiment merely serves to teach the lesser of the human species that yes...animals do think too. I am of the group of people who already have known this without having to have it explicitly proven through science and experimentation, there is already enough evidence in just interacting with animals to know that they are all quite intelligent and have desires and feelings. Even in animals that will forever be unable to talk to us, you can see desires, requests, and emotion. I am not coming at this from a 100% disapproval standpoint, I am just saying I don't share the vision into the value of proving it all if that makes sense.

 

I think in general our views are not that different.I think you could include me in your group. Except that there is a very real value to the kind of work that Df Pepperberg is doing. It is not that long ago that the scientific community tended to believe that all non human creatures were unthinking automatons. Dr Pepperberg has had to struggle hard to demonstrate the falsity of that thinking and I applaud her for that.

The main point of Dr Pepperbergs work is not to teach her birds senseless tricks but to understand the depth and process of avian thought by use of a common spoken "language".

[Dave007]

"""""And the "wanna go back" broke my heart!""""""""

 

Her main goal was learn about and study parrot behavior in as many areas as she could and then pass them on..

 

How many here have or had a 5 or 6 yr old child that said a similar type of sentence as the above? Just because the child said it, did you simply give in and let the child get it's wish or desire?

I used to basically say the same type of thing to my mother when I was that age ""Ma, I don't wanna go to school today"". Ma, I don't wanna eat those vegetables"" Well, I was unsuccessful and mom won out. I went to school and ate my vegetables AND I was pissed!!

Concerning videos that can be seen with her and him, understand that she had complete control over videos that would be made public and ones that wouldn't. I doubt very much that she would allow any video that would show cruel behavior towards that bird. There was a reason. The bird was being obstinent like a child and was told to continue which he did in videos. After all, a grey is supposed to have the intelligence of a 5 yr old, right?

[Jayd]

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/02/pepperberg.aspx A little more insight into the good Doctor.

Jayd

[lovethatgrey]

If it weren't for Dr. Pepperberg, I am sure that I would have never developped an interest in parrots or african greys. She and Alex educated the whole World and the media about african grey intelligence.

 

Reading about Dr. Pepperberg and her relationship with Alex has had a VERY big impact on how I treat my african grey Emma.

 

If it weren't for her studies, research and science, the "World" wouldn't have even believed in the "notion" of parrot intelligence. She has dedicated 31+ years of her life towards researching african grey intelligence and continues to do so even though Alex has passed away.

 

Alex was a very very lucky african grey who was respected and well cared for his whole entire life. He always had company, had ALOT of friendships, was never alone, neglected or abused. Yes he worked in a lab but he also had alot of fun and goofed around too. Before deciding to make snap judgements about Dr. Pepperberg and the state of Alex's life, I would suggest they read the book Alex and Me and do a little bit more research of their own. Perhaps Alex did not live in a "conventional" home, but that does not mean he was not happy or unlucky.

Edited May 12, 2010 by lovethatgrey

[Elvenking]

I can only go by my feeling when I watch the videos. I had always seen her bouncing things off the birds beak...pressing for answers...and I kept thinking gosh...how long and often is this done? If it were me, I would be like...get the damned thing out of my face and I will answer you just give me time. Back off! Maybe if I hd seen videos of her having the bird out with her family and enjoying life...i would have been more impressed...in fact...I am more impressed with the majority of grey owners on this forum than I am with this 'experiment'.

 

Maybe it would be equal to say that I value a heart-wise bonding relationship more than the facination of the science of the bird.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Elvenking

[lovethatgrey]

What you see on video is an extremely small "snapshot or snippet" of moments in Alex's day and Alex's life. The videos were meant to share how "intelligent" african greys are. I don't believe that there is any perfect place in captivity for ANY parrot.. but Alex was definitely treated much better than MOST parrots in captivity. He had lots of different people to interact with and keep him company any time he wanted. He was very well socialized and LOVED being the center of attention.

 

My parrots have to accept being left alone for 9 hours everyday in their cages because we have careers that do NOT include them. I do my best with what I have but none of the toys that I will ever purchase will ever be more valuable to Emma and Sachi than interacting with us.

Edited May 12, 2010 by lovethatgrey