breeder suggests clipping

[harmar]

If you saw some of my other threads, you will know I am looking at getting an African Grey, and that the local breeder clips all birds. He does have some younger ones that haven't been clipped yet, and is my decision if I want it clipped or not, but if I dont I need to let him know ASAP. He says he HIGHLY encourges everyone to get it clipped.

I know this is a huge debate and personal preference.

He said that sure a few people will have success with a non clipped bird, but he could line up customers 50 feet long who got a bird fully fleighted, and came back within a year and a half wanting to get it clipper, or having a horror story about the bird getting killed or mutilated.

He said he had a few customers where the bird was standing on top of a door and owner didnt realize it, they shut the door and chopped the birds feet off.

He has had some that landed on a hot stove, some that fly out the door as soon as it is opened.

He had one where the person was a huge advocate of flighted birds and went on and on how clipping them is taking away natural ability, is incredibly mean, your typical arguments. A year and a half later she came in and got it clipped because it was causing too much trouble.

He said they aren't outdoors, they don't need to fly, nor have the required space to. There are too many dangers (windows, walls, ceiling fans, stoves, open doors, etc) that can severely injure if not kill a bird.

 

I talked to a few customers in the store, even 2 that have an African Grey, they said they would never get one that wasn't clipped and can't imagine having one that was fully flighted. These are people that have multiple birds.

He said there are local bird meetings, and if you stood up and said fully flighted birds are better, you would get booed by the other members.

He has a very convincing argument.

Wonder what other people thoughts are. This is a guy who sells hundreds of birds a year.. a couple dozens of them are greys. So he must know sort of what he is talking about.

[Luvparrots]

This is a choice that only you should make. It will be your grey and only you will know the personality of your grey and circumstances in which your grey will live. I wanted my grey flighted when I purchased her a year ago. Her breeder did not give me a choice. Knowing how much I wanted my grey to fly, she clipped her anyway. She clips all her birds. I was insulted and this has been a sore spot with Ana Grey's breeder and me although we have remained friends. She is not happy that I choose to let Ana Grey's flight feathers grow back in. But as I had to let her breeder clip Ana Grey before I purchased her, now that she is my companion, it is my choice to let her be fully flighted. I am excited about Ana Grey being able to fly and will let her remain so as long as I believe she will be safe as a flighted bird. Life is not set in stone and circumstances and situations change. Ana Grey tries everyday to fly and she can now travel over 8 feet by air though still downward. She wants to fly so very much and I can't wait for her to take flight all around the house. Good luck with your decision.

[dhorje]

I have been keeping my flighted Grey for a year. I have never had any problem with my Grey flying freely in the house as long as I keep her under supervision. She has never crashed into anything nor landed on hot stove nor frying pan. We keep her in the cage whenever we are cooking for her safety even though we know that she won't jump into the frying pan.

 

I had left my entry door opened a couple of times by accident. My grey made no attempt to escape. My grey had even got out of the door once when she was playing on curtain rail but she didn't fly away.

Once she managed to open the cage's door while I was showering her outside the house. She just stood on the cage. All these negligence made me more cautious.

 

Many suggested clipping to me but I decided to go against it. I am glad that I didn't clip my bird.

Before you make any decision, you should give your grey and yourself a chance to see how both of you could live together without clipping.

 

BTW, besides my Grey I have a free flying Hill Mynah in the house too.

 

That's my opinion.

[judygram]

harmar wrote:

I talked to a few customers in the store, even 2 that have an African Grey, they said they would never get one that wasn't clipped and can't imagine having one that was fully flighted. These are people that have multiple birds.

He said there are local bird meetings, and if you stood up and said fully flighted birds are better, you would get booed by the other members.

 

This is a decision only you can make but please think about it carefully before you do decide to clip as it takes a long time for them to grow out again.

 

There are always going to be people who do differently, thats what makes the world what it is but it would not stop me if every member of the bird club I belong to said all birds should be clipped, I got a mind of my own and I make my decision and you can too.

[rbpittman]

I have two greys - one flighted, one not - along with a U2 and sun conure. All but one of the is flighted. I was ignorant of the debate on clipping when I got my first grey and she came home clipped. She is totally dependent on my moving her from playstand or perch to her cage and vice versa. To enable her independence I have invested (with love of course) numerous ropes and ladders which help her navigate to the area's she wants to be. I swear she will never be clipped again! The baby grey is flighted, I insisted he be allowed to fledge and not be clipped. This non-clipped bird uses his wings to balance on his perch, navigate across his playtop and go from one place to the other and he's only been in my home since Monday. Without the full use of his wings at such a young age he would not be able to do this. The probability of falls and injury would be very high. Yes his wings are a little tattered from being in too small a cage for his wing span, but when I see him spread his wings and stretch he is gorgeous. He now has the proper cage for a fully flighted bird. The confidence that is being learned by having his flight feathers is what a young baby grey needs, once they are grown they continue to use this confidence and if they are clipped it can cause them problems, some noted in the numerous threads in this forum. Your Grey will only be as safe as you are with it - flighted or clipped. Even a clipped bird can fly somewhat and all the reasons you posted for having a bird clipped apply to the clipped bird - they can still happen, even though clipped.

 

Post edited by: rbpittman, at: 2009/10/09 01:25<br><br>Post edited by: rbpittman, at: 2009/10/09 01:27

[glitterysparkle]

Hi there!

 

I have a 5 month old baby grey. I did a lot of research on wing clipping before deciding to keep Sephora fully flighted. I am very happy with the decision. I've only had her for a month but I've seen a huge change in her confidence, independence,agility and navigational abilities. It can be hard to imagine having a bird fly room to room with you- but it's actually very nice for her to be able to go where SHE wants to go at that time and not get frustrated. If she's hungry- she flies to her food bowl to eat. If she has to go potty, she flies off of me and onto her pre-approved basket to go. With the intelligence factor they have, you want to encourage their independence- it allows their personalities to really blossom!

 

The concerns you have are valid but can be avoided with the proper prevention and care...if it is something you are willing to do and put effort toward. HTH!

 

~Robin

[harmar]

wow just so hard. When everyone here so far said flighted is better, but the breeder, along with most of his customers say clipped is better. I have no experience with birds which makes it such a hard choice. I see valid points to both sides.

I was in today, and he said that he just had a customer call up this morning that had a bird fully flighted and just lost it. Flew out the door and they been chasing it since, putting up posters, etc.

He is obviously trying to pressure me into getting it clipped cause he thinks it is 100% best interest in the bird. He was also saying if they an fly then they think they are in control of the house, where if they are clipped they dont.

Once a week I hear a bird fly into the window beside my computer, scared that the grey would do the same.

Although it is an option to maybe clip it now, then when they grow back, leave it..

Or could do the reverse and have not clipped, then clip later on if I think it needs to be clipped, but that seems really mean taking something away.

Thanks everyone for your replies.

[Guest jamalbirdbiz]

would u be happy if someone chopped off ur arms and legs to make u eazier to handle?

 

it iz done for the benefit of the handler not for the benefit of the one being handled - )the bird ).

[JillyBeanz]

Harvey is 10 months old nearly and fully flighted. He flies all over the place - usually places he knows he can let me join in his "game" of retrieving him from upstairs, on top of the door, in the furthest part of the house!

 

I know people say that clipped birds make it easier for the handler - but I think it would make it harder if I had to go and retrieve Harvey each time I wanted him - I just call for him and he comes flying!

 

It's lovely for that element of surprise too - I have my doors propped open with little blocks, so the doors are unable to be shut without effort - and if I'm standing in the kitchen I can hear this flapping as he tears through the house and lands on my shoulder for a little kiss.

 

It's a hard decision, and one I am glad I didn't have the choice to make (my breeder doesn't agree with clipping). Good luck in your decision - and look forward to hearing more about you and your new baby

[Jane08]

Just so you know clipped birds can also escape and cliping your grey is no guarantee that it won't get away.

 

Flighted birds do not think they are in control of the house, this is totally false.

 

Yes they do have accidents as young birds maybe flying into a window, but they soon learn where the windows are and become ver capable of looking after themselves.

 

Please don't let your breeder pressure you, it's your choice you are the one purchasing the bird. Our breeder also wanted us to have our first grey clipped before we brought him home as we were first time birds owners. We really insisted that he be flighted and we have never regretted that and this was my first bird ever and I managed it.

[rbpittman]

Your breeder is giving you his opinion and only his opinion. You are getting the opinions of many people here who own greys. Would you consider removing the legs of a dog or cat to keep it safe from the dangers you describe? They aren't any different. Dogs are prone to jumping up and spilling things from the stove if they are large dogs. I've seen many of them run out of the door and into the street, run away, crash into the sliding glass door, and many other injuries. Look at your bird being flighted the same as you would in having a dog. You make the same modifications to your home and activities to accomodate as you would for a dog or cat. If while cooking and that is a concern - don't have the bird out of the cage while cooking. If you're concerned about the tops of doors - prop them open. If you're concerned about not being able to handle a flighted bird - that's a different story and you may need to consider a stuffed toy parrot.<br><br>Post edited by: rbpittman, at: 2009/10/09 13:52

[pearllyn]

The reason my breeder gave me for not clipping was a straightforward welfare one. They need the power of flight to strengthen their chest muscles. If they are denied this from a young age the chest muscles never develop fully. Then you have the problem of excersise - birds keep fit by flying, and if they are unable to do so, you may have to deal with other health issues such as obesity at a later stage.

When I first got Alf, I decided to leave her wings until she was fully developed physically, then decide if clipping was going to be needed a couple of years down the line. When she first started flying (it's very exciting!) she did fly into windows, but never into the same one twice, and at this stage, she wasn't accomoplished enough to be flying at any great speed, and so never hurt herself.

She is now 20 months old, fully flighted and pure joy to watch when she is doing her arial manouvers! I won't ever be clipping her.

Incedently, from the birds point of view, Alf went through a wee phase earlier this year, when she did lose her flying ability after she chewed her feathers off. When it dawned on her that she could no longer fly, she was so blue, it was heartbreaking to watch. Her feathers have all since regrown, and thankfully, she is leaving them alone now!

As others have said, you can stil have the same dangers with a flighted bird that you have with an unflighted one.

GOod luck with making the right decision.

[chimaysmommy]

Does this breeder allow the babies to fully fledge before clipping them?

 

Chimay was given to us from the breeder with a long clip, and we've since decided to allow his flights to grow back in. It's been since March of this year when he came home to us, and his feathers are still not back but he is gaining more and more distance as time goes on. I do plan on sticking with the fully flighted plan, and will ONLY clip as an absolute last resort.

 

Your breeder has valid points, and those who believe that clipping should not be done also have valid points. However keep in mind that feathers will, albeit slowly, grow back. Should you decide to clip your grey and regret it later, you can allow them to grow back in. And vice versa.

 

Here's a the theoretic example that I went through in my mind when deciding whether to clip Chimay or let him become flighted:

 

Bird A: Permitted to fully fledge and then clipped at a young age. Owners allowed the flights to come back in, during which time the bird is adjusted to life without flight. It becomes obvious to the owners after 2 years of age that it is too dangerous to allow the bird to be flighted (for all of the reasons already mentioned here from others), so he is clipped again.

 

Bird B: Permitted to fully fledge and spends the first 2 years of his life fully flighted. Owners decide that after too many close calls--near escapes and hot stove incidents, that the bird must be clipped.

 

Which bird would be better mentally equipped to handle clipping?

 

This is just the rationale I use when I think about clipping. It would seem to me that a bird that has been clipped before at a young age and adapted well to flightless life would be better prepared for a re-clipping later should the owner change their mind about allowing full flight; as opposed to a bird who has spent so much time with the freedom of flight may become more emotionally fragile after becoming clipped.

 

That was quite a rant, I hope I made sense. Haha

[dhorje]

I am so happy to see majority here are positive about not clipping. In my country 99.9% favors clipping.

I am one of the 0.1% who do not clip.

 

I am glad to have joined this forum and have learnt much from those of you who keep your birds flighted.

[Acappella]

Glad to see that you are taking this decision so seriously. Here's my story with Dorian.

 

I got him at the age of four, almost five. He was totally cage bound. As a matter of fact, about the only time he was outside of the cage was to be towelled to get his wings clipped (no wonder the poor guy thought the world outside his cage was hostile) He was never allowed to fledge as a baby. When he first came to me he was freshly clipped. I had a vet come to my home once after I'd had him a few months to even out his wings, since the last clip was not only severe, but very unbalanced.

 

When he had grown a full set of feathers I witnessed some bad looking crashes into walls when he was startled off his perch, but he never injured himself any worse than a small scratch. I think those impromptu flights were the first time he got a clue what his wings were for. In the last four or five months he's started taking off on purpose, usually trying to come to me in another room. He still doesn't have much directional control, but his landings are getting better every time he flys. Even these short flights leave him panting, which shows me how out of shape his years being cage bound made him.

 

Another thing I've noticed is that he's become more calm, less easily spooked. I can't say for sure that it's because he's realized he can fly, but that's the only thing that has changed in his world.

 

So here's my two cents. You have to be vigilent whether your bird is clipped or not. Before Dorian could fly I nearly stepped on him once because I didn't realize he'd climbed down off his cage to come looking for me. At least now I hear those massive wings flapping and I know I have to look out for him. Clipped birds can still get real lift and take off if something scares them and gets their adreneline pumping. The problem is they have no control and no idea how to land. They just flap blindly. Even if they want to come to you, they don't know how to fly down. They only know to wait for a rescue. A little while ago a member here had a close call with his grey and his dogs. Although the dogs had never bothered the bird before, something startled Dayo onto the floor and the dogs instictivly went after him. If Dayo hadn't been able to fly away he may have been badly hurt.

 

Having a flighted bird can be a pain in the neck. They're stubborn, curious, and they want to be with you, their flock. You might have to remove them a hundred times from somewhere you don't want them to be until they learn the rules. You'll be giving them the power to chose whether they want to play on their playstand or sit with you, and they may not always chose what you want. I just think having that small bit of control can lead to a healthier, happier companion. Plus, just think of the extra bonding you two will do as you remove him from the curtain rod for the 200th time:)

[kisses0071]

I have a CAG that's now 15 wks old. I have not clipped him...think thats to young anyway. I had been kicking around the decision to clip or not. As I said HAD, I can't do it! Just as I have a 6 yr old tabby cat that I can't for the life of me have her declawed, even tho she sometimes kneads my comforter when she is settling in for the night and drives me to distraction when she does it. It's just a cats thing lol. I love seeing Neo take flight. It leaves me in aw to see my baby from 7wks old do this. So Ken and I decided to train him to come to us when he takes his little jaunts...it's working

[judygram]

I am glad to hear you are leaving Neo's wings unclipped, I don't think you will regret it, my grey's wings were clipped at weaning time and she still has not regained flight but in time she will.

[Guest jamalbirdbiz]

grate to hear. clipping wings seems sorta mean. :angry:

[danmcq]

Glad to hear your dicision kisses. :-)

 

It is a wonderful gift and joy to watch these birds fly and their antics.

[Luvparrots]

Karma to you Kisses for not chipping your grey. My grey was clipped when I got her and I am still waiting for her to become fully flighted!

[JillyBeanz]

That's good news kisses - you won't regret it. It's so lovely when you've had a bad day and you baby senses it and flies to you for a little cuddle - the downside is - nowhere is out of bounds!!! You will play the retrieval game regularly - I wouldn't change it for the world!!!